Russian invasion of Georgia..

[Raesvelg]

Between all the various claims and counter-claims surrounding this particular action, I have to wonder what Russia is thinking in pursuing this as aggressively as they have. They have to realize that they represent something of the "spiritual successor" of the Soviet Union in the eyes of the West, and consequently any action they take towards other members of the former USSR is going to be viewed with a definite air of apprehension.

Couple that with the way Russia has been dealing with other international powers for the past few years, and it's obviously enough to make people distinctly nervous. The invasion is particularly worrisome in light of the fact that there remains at least a slim chance that Georgia withheld a few nukes back in the 90s, and they're grotesquely outnumbered by Russian forces. Desperate people can do desperate things, and Georgia has been conquered by Russians at least twice in the past, something that they're not prone to forget.

 

[iaredrew]

Totally the country and not the state....

>.> hi

 

[Ecks]

I've seen a lot of russian chicks in the panhandle here. Even had some really cute ones come into the jail. >_>; I know I shouldn't say that, but they were freaking fine looking. ._.; Arrested for 'No Valid DL, and Leaving the sceen of a crash with property damage'. Sucks for them.

 

[Ecks]

Wait, theres a country called Georgia? *blinks*

 

[Dejavu]

Russians are goin for the dirty south !!!

Eh actually i havent had a chance to read up on this shit yet but from what im reading so far its not looking good at all... gogo putin. (he scares the hell out of me)

and yes Georgia is a country

 

[Propagandhi]

Totally the country and not the state....

As serious as the OP is on a topic that does need attention, that woosh by Ecks is so unbelievable that I really need to quote it again.

I've seen a lot of russian chicks in the panhandle here. Even had some really cute ones come into the jail. >_>; I know I shouldn't say that, but they were freaking fine looking. ._.; Arrested for 'No Valid DL, and Leaving the sceen of a crash with property damage'. Sucks for them.

FUCKING LOL. ; ;

 

[Raesvelg]

Aye, it is serious, and moderately distressing that people don't even realize Georgia is a country, lol.

Russia has been growing increasingly upset with western involvement in its former provinces. Georgia is still in the running to join NATO, for example, and the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline distressed the hell out of Russia.

Part of the problem is that both sides are conducting something of a propaganda war currently, and reliable information is very hard to come by. The Russians say the Georgians were committing atrocities while trying to retake South Ossetia, and that a lot of the people living in the region are Russian citizens. Of course, the reason they're "Russian Citizens" is because Russia came in and offered to make them Russian citizens, in what is really a rather obvious pretext to support action in the region.

A brief history of the conflict for those in the dark and too lazy to look it up:

Starting on August 8th: Separatists in South Ossetia, a self-governing region in Georgia, are accused of violating a standing truce and attacking Georgian villages across the border. In response, Georgian troops invade and capture the capitol. In response to that, Russian troops invade and start stomping on the Georgians. In addition, Georgia's other self-governing region rises up and attacks Georgian troops stationed there, while Russian troops move through the region and at the very least prepare to invade Georgia proper.

The whole issue is horribly muddled, and the fact that Russia has been funding the separatist movements in Georgia doesn't exactly help their side.

 

[Realia]

Nice input with the picture there Deja. As Steven Colbert says, wars are Gods way of teaching Americans geography.

 

[Sharpe]

I don't know where I stand on this, our news sources in the West are nearly always biased against Russia. South Ossetia has had de-facto self rule for 15ish years now. It's only recently that Georgia under their new President decided they wanted to have full control. Russia has peacekeepers in South Ossetia to stop the Ossetians and Georgians fighting. Georgia attacked South Ossetia and Russia retaliated is what I can make out from various news sources. If this was the case I think Russia was entitled to send troops into South Ossetia. Their attacks on Georgian soil were not needed though.

 

[Raesvelg]

The thing is this... Having Russian "Peacekeepers" in South Ossetia was very much a case of the fox guarding the henhouse. Russia has been funding the insurgency groups in the area, and supposedly it was an attack by those groups that prompted Georgia to invade. Couple that with Russia's obvious ploy of simply giving any South Ossetian who wants it Russian citizenship, and there's a good reason to be biased against Russia.

 

[Sharpe]

The thing is this... Having Russian "Peacekeepers" in South Ossetia was very much a case of the fox guarding the henhouse. Russia has been funding the insurgency groups in the area, and supposedly it was an attack by those groups that prompted Georgia to invade. Couple that with Russia's obvious ploy of simply giving any South Ossetian who wants it Russian citizenship, and there's a good reason to be biased against Russia.

See North Ossetia is in Russia and South is in Georgia. The Russian argument is that Georgia was not adhering to the de-facto "Independance" and was therefore actually invading another territory. Either way we'll probably never know what the true starting point of it was. All I can say is America and Britain have done stuff like this before and no one batted an eye lid. However, as it's the old enemy we get all up in arms about it.

 

[Nycon]

All I can say is America and Britain have done stuff like this before and no one batted an eye lid. However, as it's the old enemy we get all up in arms about it.

Enlighten me when the last time the US and Britain invaded a sovereign nation that had a Democratically elected government.

 

[Raesvelg]

See North Ossetia is in Russia and South is in Georgia. The Russian argument is that Georgia was not adhering to the de-facto "Independance" and was therefore actually invading another territory. Either way we'll probably never know what the true starting point of it was. All I can say is America and Britain have done stuff like this before and no one batted an eye lid. However, as it's the old enemy we get all up in arms about it.

You may note that Russia isn't exactly saying "Set Ossetia free!" though. They're effectively saying "All of Ossetia is part of Russia."

You're also apparently mistaking my distaste for the matter as some sort of moral judgment. It's not. This is, to use the somewhat tired phrase, a matter of realpolitik. It's not a question of right and wrong, it's a question of power and control. By weakening Georgia, Russia discourages foreign investment there, thus slowing the development of a country that has so far seen the establishment of multiple pipelines cutting into a Russian-dominated market.

If you want to take a sufficiently Machiavellian look at the matter, here is one way it could unfold: Russian "Peacekeepers" maintain their positions in Ossetia and Abkhazia, while continuing to fund the separatist movements there. Talks over independence bog down, separatists continue attacks against Georgian targets across the border. Georgians begin retaliatory strikes, over Russian objections. The situation escalates, and ultimately Russia initiates a full-scale military invasion to "quell Georgian aggression." Afterwards, Georgia becomes a protectorate of sorts, and the Russian government controls its pipelines while simultaneously sending a clear message to other former Soviet republics.

The scenario above isn't overly likely, but it's not impossible either. For the moment, Russia has fulfilled a variety of goals with minimal losses. They've curtailed Georgian development, slowed the adoption of Georgia into NATO, and sent the aforementioned message to the other former Soviet republics.

 

[Amidamaru]

This sucks. X.x

 

[Sharpe]

Enlighten me when the last time the US and Britain invaded a sovereign nation that had a Democratically elected government.

1909. The democratically elected President of Nicaragua wanted to charge American companies taxes. America put "pressure" him to resign and a former head of an American mining company just happened to become the next leader, whom most of the people hated.

1954 Guatemala. Overthrowing a democratically elected President because "he might be communist".

1961 American backed coup ousts Ecuador's elected President because the Americans thought he was "a bit too left".

1963 CIA backed coup overthrows elected president of the Dominican Republic.

1964 Brazil's president proposes new land reforms. Ousted by US backed military coup.

1965 The elected President of Dominican Republic's followers try to take back their country, American forces sent in to stop them.

1973 US backed military coup puts Pinochet in power of Chile.

Ok so not all are flat out invasions, but it's America going around ousting democratically elected leaders they don't like.

 

[Tristam Green]

An interesting potential consequence:

Russia’s invasion of Georgia is sending ripples right out into space, with NASA facing the possibility of no longer being able to hitch a ride to the International Space Station on Soyuz flights.
With the space shuttle due to retire in 2010, and the US not likely to have a replacement manned space flight option ready till 2015, Russian’s space fleet is the only interim option for the US to get people into space and onto the ISS.

linkie

Possibly the first war to have interstellar consequences! Star Wars is truly here, folks.

 

[Excim]

What's next, the Ukraine? Slovakia?

It was said from a reporter on the ground that when the Russians rolled in with tanks and weaponry, it wasn't old junked armour from the 50's or the 70's. It was new. And expensive.

Don't fool yourselves into thinking Russia is an aging sleeping bear. It's very much alive, and right now is more poised and ready than us Americans are. (You see, they are an oil SUPPLIER, not CONSUMER)

But yeah, lets just worry about saving a few hundred acres where the moose are humping, yeah that is much more important than keeping a well established economy and military. >.>

 

[Excim]

1909. The democratically elected President of Nicaragua wanted to charge American companies taxes. America put "pressure" him to resign and a former head of an American mining company just happened to become the next leader, whom most of the people hated.

1954 Guatemala. Overthrowing a democratically elected President because "he might be communist".

1961 American backed coup ousts Ecuador's elected President because the Americans thought he was "a bit too left".

1963 CIA backed coup overthrows elected president of the Dominican Republic.

1964 Brazil's president proposes new land reforms. Ousted by US backed military coup.

1965 The elected President of Dominican Republic's followers try to take back their country, American forces sent in to stop them.

1973 US backed military coup puts Pinochet in power of Chile.

Ok so not all are flat out invasions, but it's America going around ousting democratically elected leaders they don't like.

Any one of those instances could be construed as a matter of perspective. There is plenty of room for journalistic spin on them... but anyway. And, yeah yeah, we know it's the cool thing to do in the rest of the world to pick the USA apart, but w/e. Have your fun. We are the devil, we know, we know...

 

[Halifirien]

The highlight for me was hearing John "The Comedy Writes Itself" McCain saying "In the 21st century, nations don’t invade other nations."

Clearly, he's been napping and not paying attention to the United States.

 

[Mattaru]

Trying to find a good article for all interested, when I read it, it was still in prepublication and I don't have database access atm. Appears I didn't save it on my emails either.

It's by John O'Loughlin and called:

All are cold but few are frozen: secessionist conflicts with a focus on Ossetia.

Basically, conflict in this area is far from new. If you get a chance to look at a map it will show you that Chechnya, Ingushetia, North and South Ossetia are all very close to one another. Also, such conflicts can be viewed as the always on the brink transformation of pseudo-states to actual states that Russia finds itself in at least a conflict of words over depending on how it effects them. Other examples being Kosovo and Trans-Dniester Moldovan Republic.