SAMs not subbing NIN in pickup merit pts

[Rappa]

I don't want to hijack Aselus's topic so I'll just make a new one...

please note i DO NOT sub /nin... so... that's why the third eye thing.

I've noticed that this is a recurring trend lately, SAMs that sub WAR or other completely useless subjobs in merit pts. The last one I was in we had a sam/war that just macroed on arhat's gi whenever he pulled hate. Seriously? Is the sam e-peen contest so important that they will make the party that much more difficult to manage so they can make bigger numbers? We lost chain several times because our whm couldn't keep mp high enough to keep Haste on everyone because the sam took so much damage.

So is there some reason that sams feel special in regard to not subbing nin in merits? And no, I don't want to hear "Seigan" as an answer.

 

[ds083roadkill]

only time i would consider it would be in merit with 2 natural mp pools (rdm,whm,smn,sch)...or if all the dd's are sam AND it's colibri, and to a lesser extent imps.

 

[Tagrineth]

Morons who think they can get away with it, more or less, when they really can't. And don't realise it.

 

[Aselus]

seigan really is better then /nin, the benefits you lose out from other subs are ridiculous..if you REALLY want surviavbility as a sam you should be subbing dnc, not nin... I know it got added not that long ago, but seriously it's a much better option with much more flexability.

I was in a merit PT on colibri yesterday as /drg w/ pole belt and haste earring(usualy don't do polearm but for colibri hard not to) and we had a dnc healer who was doing just fine. We also had a sam/war Tanking and a sam/nin in the pt as well.

A) you slow yourself down from casting shadows INCREDIBLY slow while under seigan/hasso,

B) really... things die too fast and your healer should be able to keep up if you get damaged... if healers are going to be lazy, or be 'haste' bots, then use a dnc healer in ur merit pt, or a brd, or RDM, or hell a Corsair, whm on colibri can't rest... how is he keeping his mp up anyways? /smn and refresh gear is not always enough.

C) honestly... Seigan/Third eye is amazing, instant and usualy will last more then enough time to equal out to/compensate for that Sam/nin in the pt that turns around to cast shadows and lose hate(while getting hit in the proccess and half the time interupted)

D) subbing a job for ONE ability, that casts slow, reduces the usefullness of your main job and does not complement it in ANY way shape or form, is a weak easy way out. I understand there are some end game situations where you can't get hit and all and it might be an utter life saver(though form my research i have yet to find one realistic case where this is true)

i'm sorry for the 'perfectionist' look of most people who seem to wet themselves at /nin, but really it's not that great.. especially for a job that has something that can be better. As i said, if you REALLY want survivability /dnc u get erase, debuffs, heals and if there's no other DNC in the PT a whole-party slow heal benefit w/ drain samba II or aspir samba (if you have a PT of drks or something)

one of these days do the math on the 'ever loved' and 'perfect' utsusemi vs someone that can switch to seigan/third eye at the right time. or even just stay in it and STILL be more effective w/o the hasso bonus.

 

[Aselus]

this reminds me i need to level dnc T_T, time to merit swords to 4. lol

 

[ds083roadkill]

subbing dnc defeats the purpose of merit pt's, to get exp as fast as possible. you'd have to full time seigan and use tp to cure. /nin also blocks shear wind where as third eye dose not.

in all fairness, you should be able to full time hasso while sticking to utsusemi: ni only, if the pt is decent.

 

[Aselus]

all i see from ppl /nin is them getting smacked upside the head while they try to get shadows back up after they pull hate.

Third Eye Blocks Pecking whereas Shadows still make u take dmg form it and then have to deal w/ reapplying(interupt..oh oops...interupt..oh oops... ah i lost hate..ok re-applied..what was i doiung? oh yeah DPS) ..which goes back to what i said first...

Though as I said we had sam/nin sam/drg(me) and sam/nin in the pt yesturday.. w/ the sam/war tanking in seigan/third eye..and didn't haveto rest... so this point is moot as to saying 'sam/nin' is the only way to merit pt effectively.

Also remember you're killing slower w/ not having SJ abilities that help .

mmm yes tp increases dmges, but i'd argue the two hits u lose during casting utsusemi ~the same as the TP u lose from dancing urself a heal.

P.S.: my favorite are ppl that state something 'just because' w/o any real concrete backing and/or opinionated reasons like mdkuser bellow me.

 

[mdkuser]

Melees that don't sub nin in a merit pt are selfish idiots that prefer do good dmg vs getting the pt good exp.

 

[mdkuser]

Also can youtell me whats better: sam/nin full timeing hasso, or sam/war full timing seigan.

 

[Aselus]

and why are u full timing seigan?.. unless you're tanking the part.. really paranoid... lol it's instant cast... yeah you may take 1 hit if you're slow at pressing the button ;-P, but only certain momments u take hate.

tip:
/ja "Seigan" <me>
/wait 1
/ja "Third Eye" <me>

dont' remember if it's wait one or wait 2 i'm at work..have the macro at home.

and also if at colibri and sj is /drg... and it's up.. HJ will make u lose hate most of the time ~_~ (does nicely for sekkanoki stacking)... honestly i'm not the best at it but i've seen far more then enough great sams doing this.

a sam/war fulltiming Seigan as a the tank > a sam/nin w/ hasso trying to tank in the meripo...

 

[pchan]

lol this again. It's like sam/war can tank chariot etc .. until they crit you 777 in the face.

 

[Zyndara]

and why are u full timing seigan?.. unless you're tanking the part.. really paranoid... lol it's instant cast... yeah you may take 1 hit if you're slow at pressing the button ;-P, but only certain momments u take hate.

tip:
/ja "Seigan" <me>
/wait 1
/ja "Third Eye" <me>

dont' remember if it's wait one or wait 2 i'm at work..have the macro at home.

and also if at colibri and sj is /drg... and it's up.. HJ will make u lose hate most of the time ~_~ (does nicely for sekkanoki stacking)... honestly i'm not the best at it but i've seen far more then enough great sams doing this.

a sam/war fulltiming Seigan as a the tank > a sam/nin w/ hasso trying to tank in the meripo...

OK, if you're doing the kind of damage you should be doing on samurai - you're going to be taking hate more than once in a while. Your job in a merit party is to get fast, continuous exp. Seigan isn't going to save you from a hit every time as was already mentioned. Whether you like it or not, haste for all the melee from a mage and the ability to maintain the mp to heal when needed instead of every other second when a non /nin is getting plowed is more valuable to chaining than the tiny bit more damage you think you're doing by not casting utsusemi. And if you doubt that, you should parse with a kickass samurai /nin sometime to prove it to yourself.

And on a mage note, a whm alone can do just fine in a situation with an all /nin party. I know it because I've done it. It's mp sponges like a sam who thinks /nin is stupid that slow a merit party down and/or cause party deaths when their constant mp suckage drains the mage. Not the mage forced to blow all their mp trying to keep them from dying.

 

[Aselus]

lol, look up when my character was made if you're really that paranoid about the 'number of posts' i have on QCDN, started playing this game at NA release, but this isn't an 'e-peen' fight this is my realistic opinion of what the point of this job is and how it can be played... If you are going to go all high and mighty on me, good luck using that.

And no i don't care about your LSes failed Limbus runs, this is a discussion on why /nin is/isn't usefull (specifically in meripo)

At least i do research instead of just saying 'this is so because the gods have decreed it'. Never once in my posts have i said 'sam/war' is better just because wherein you said "people that dont' do this are idiots", which amounts to the same thing mr.1084 posts.

oh the horror more posts, woe is me for finding qcdn late and not palying day and night on this job, i cry every day...really.. /end sarcasm ~_~

ok maybee that was a bit childish of me, but seriously.
my opinions ON COLIBRI:

sam/war - voke/dmg boost, Seigan/Third eye mitigation if has hate and/or is tanking, ability to tank if fulltiming Seigan w/ a refresher healer, possibly easier w/ Third Eye merit. If third eye is down has defender, has warcry to speedup party dps, has berzerk to do a finishing WS towards the end. has 2x attack increase traits(20 attack, more then a lot of eq pieces even in EG)... some defensive some offencive.

sam/nin - survivability through Utsusemi-ni, 2x evasion merits(helps getting hit less), resist blind, a bit less tp to enemy for TP moves... all defensive

sam/drg - Ability to use polearm on Colibri for penta spam, ability to HJ to shave ~33% hate (enough to not have hate after 2x sekkanoki penta spams mid mob w/ it having a few life left), jump TP builder, 5% haste, 1acc 1attack trait. Bit harder to drop hate if HJ is down and there, prolly best to double WS in the middle of a fight so as to kill/almost kill the enemy. Seigan/TEye no support

sam/dnc - survivability, ability to heal self, as well as an ally in trouble if the healer gets bogged, or there is an emergency, ability to give small dot heal to pt w/o main dnc for haste, ability to debuff to make fights go faster even if main dnc, acts mroe as a support role, but still deals decent dmg, just because you CAN use TP to help yourself doesn't mean you need to and always do.

personally right now i mostly just play /drg btw for the haste. If you're going to take plucks at my 'age' or my 'experience' or 'zomg we had /wars and they made us die' then it's not a real discussion and i'm going to stop responding... please use real points.... i.e.: the shearwind comment which i did not know, and makes it more interesting.

 

[Bajaratt]

I'm betting Aselus has never been in a serious merit party before, so he has no idea of how the parties that get 20k/hour or more work. It's pretty obvious since he thinks he's getting great exp while being a massive mp sink. I love how in his last thread he admits that his sam is pretty gimp, but now he's telling off people with pimped out samurai's how to play like he's the expert.

Seigan/third eye is far inferior to Utsusemi for merits.

First of all, they do not increase your casting times, so you're not dropping your DPS by a significant amount; despite what Aselus has been saying. Ni is a 1.5 second cast time, fast enough that you can usually get it off in between a mob's attacks; especially if your brd isn't retarded and has elegy on the mob.

Second, utsusemi blocks magic, third eye doesn't. 'Nuff said.

Third, Utsusemi is consistent. You get three shadows, every single time. Third eye could last you 10 hits, it could only last you two. That inconsistency makes it unreliable.

Lastly, it's very, very easy to throw up a third eye while trying to cast Ichi(if necessary); and it's infinitely better than just standing there like a retard getting wailed on because your third eye only lasted 8 seconds.

My monk's been subbing nin for a hell of a lot longer than my samurai has; I have the exact same complaints about how it doesn't help me other than stops me from being an MP sink. I go mnk/nin anyways, because I'm not retarded/arrogant enough to put my own personal e-peen over the welfare of the entire party; it even benefits me more because I get far more exp/hour.

 

[Aselus]

i can push 600~760ish dmg on a penta spam 2x 1400... and i'm not geared 'end-gamy' if i was i'd prolly be done w/ merits ;-P

my sam is gimped... is a statement meaning i'm not wearing EG gear, and am not fully merited.

you realy think having hasso/seigan doesn't slow down cast time...really? ;-).. go check on that...

also iv'e said this once and again.. this is not an 'epeen' measurement discussion ~_~ it's a real comparative look at the sj options/choices and their effectiveness.

pchan - i never said they can tank endgame..... this is colibri...

 

[Tagrineth]

all i see from ppl /nin is them getting smacked upside the head while they try to get shadows back up after they pull hate.

Third Eye Blocks Pecking whereas Shadows still make u take dmg form it and then have to deal w/ reapplying(interupt..oh oops...interupt..oh oops... ah i lost hate..ok re-applied..what was i doiung? oh yeah DPS) ..which goes back to what i said first...

So what you're saying is you've only seen people that suck, or that aren't paying any attention to the party. Check.

Also, Seigan/Third Eye is okay but as pointed out already, it's inconsistent and unreliable - it might even go down in one single hit, which I've experienced several times in a row on DRG/SAM - unlike Utsu which is guaranteed. The other problem is, if you're using Hasso, you are going to take hate and take a hit BEFORE you can possibly get TE up.

In other words, while TE can block an entire Pecking Flurry, mobs tend to WS the moment they turn (murphy's law and all that jazz) so you're going to eat that Pecking Flurry before you can possibly get TE up at all, and cost your healer a lot more MP than a /NIN with access to Utsusemi:Ni is.


edit: and yes, I want my WHM to be a haste bot. If that's all he has to do, we're doing something right.

 

[Bajaratt]

i can push 600~760ish dmg on a penta spam 2x 1400... and i'm not geared 'end-gamy' if i was i'd prolly be done w/ merits ;-P

So you're a sam using a polearm as your main weapon. Well, that explains a few things, none of them good for you.

my sam is gimped... is a statement meaning i'm not wearing EG gear, and am not fully merited.

This is a pretty important point. The problem with not subbing ninja is that you end up pulling hate without a reliable way of mitigating damage so that your healer doesn't blow through all of their mp keeping you alive. So, you're draining mp with a "gimped" samurai, imagine how much you'd drain decked out in endgame gear?

If you're hitting harder, more often, and faster, you're going to pull hate more and keep it on your for longer. This means you're going to be taking more and more damage, draining more and more mp; drastically undermining your potential exp/hour.

you realy think having hasso/seigan doesn't slow down cast time...really? ;-).. go check on that...

I did, and I'm surprised to see there's a cast increase with Hasso, I'd honestly never noticed the increase before, which just goes to show how irrelevant that increase really is. It's not big enough to make a difference, it's not going to make you lose two attack rounds; it's not even going to have that big of an impact on your comparative DPS, since everyone else will have the same problem. It will, however, drastically increase your exp/hour when your healer doesn't have to spend a bunch of mp keeping you alive every fight.

also iv'e said this once and again.. this is not an 'epeen' measurement discussion ~_~ it's a real comparative look at the sj options/choices and their effectiveness.

You're turning it into an e-peen discussion. You don't want to sub nin because you want to do more damage, you want a bigger e-peen. Then there's people who obviously know a hell of a lot more than you do about the subject, and you're acting like a spoiled brat who just got spanked for the first time.

The top players are all subbing ninja, you'd think that'd tell you something; but you're too obsessed with your e-peen to notice, apparently.

 

[Aselus]

So what you're saying is you've only seen people that suck, or that aren't paying any attention to the party. Check.

uhh not so much, just got hit, pecked... i over exagurated a bit, my apologies for that, really usually only get interrupted once, heh.

Also, Seigan/Third Eye is okay but as pointed out already, it's inconsistent and unreliable - it might even go down in one single hit, which I've experienced several times in a row on DRG/SAM - unlike Utsu which is guaranteed. The other problem is, if you're using Hasso, you are going to take hate and take a hit BEFORE you can possibly get TE up.

I don't really experience the '1hit down' problem..maybee i'm lucky?w I rarely pull hate w/ a good tank unless i WS.. not sure if i'm doing something wrong there (w/ hasso up, pole or GK on colibri).. Though i do agree about the inconsistency, hence why i was saying possibly meriting it(in my other thread).

In other words, while TE can block an entire Pecking Flurry, mobs tend to WS the moment they turn (murphy's law and all that jazz) so you're going to eat that Pecking Flurry before you can possibly get TE up at all, and cost your healer a lot more MP than a /NIN with access to Utsusemi:Ni is.

heh, did have this happen to me maybee twice, can usually see the charge animation and hit the button before though (usualy jsut good to do in general after Sekkanoki set). or use HJ as a mitigator... mm i've seen more then enough /nins get hit by pecking flurry though sometimes for not full dmg cause shadows take some, sometimes for full because the mob pecks their lsat shadow and does the TP move during re-casting.

edit: and yes, I want my WHM to be a haste bot. If that's all he has to do, we're doing something right.

mm but what if u have a non-whm support ;-) that has no problems w/ hasting while doing other things.w? like a brd or dnc or rdm or corsair... that's what i was trying to say, sry if it got miss-communicated. I've actually never been to a merit pt w/ a whm... always been something else so i can't claim one way or another w/ this.


but really... only thing aynone is going to use as a foothold is utsusemi?...

P.S.: i don't sub war... i don't even have it leveled.

 

[Aselus]

heh I only use polearm on Colibri, because i do more dmg then w/ my Onimaru on them sue me it parses for more so i use it.

 

[ds083roadkill]

sam/war - voke/dmg boost, Seigan/Third eye mitigation if has hate and/or is tanking, ability to tank if fulltiming Seigan w/ a refresher healer, possibly easier w/ Third Eye merit. If third eye is down has defender, has warcry to speedup party dps, has berzerk to do a finishing WS towards the end. has 2x attack increase traits(20 attack, more then a lot of eq pieces even in EG)... some defensive some offencive.

warcry in most situation is going to SLOW down your exp if not used properly. defender will reduced dmg taken by 20~ tops.

sam/nin - survivability through Utsusemi-ni, 2x evasion merits(helps getting hit less), resist blind, a bit less tp to enemy for TP moves... all defensive

resist blind is a samurai trait not, ninja

sam/drg - Ability to use polearm on Colibri for penta spam, ability to HJ to shave ~33% hate (enough to not have hate after 2x sekkanoki penta spams mid mob w/ it having a few life left), jump TP builder, 5% haste, 1acc 1attack trait. Bit harder to drop hate if HJ is down and there, prolly best to double WS in the middle of a fight so as to kill/almost kill the enemy. Seigan/TEye no support

dont need to sub drg to use polearm.

sam/dnc - survivability, ability to heal self, as well as an ally in trouble if the healer gets bogged, or there is an emergency, ability to give small dot heal to pt w/o main dnc for haste, ability to debuff to make fights go faster even if main dnc, acts mroe as a support role, but still deals decent dmg, just because you CAN use TP to help yourself doesn't mean you need to and always do.

waltz II with basic tp gear CHR is anywhere from 263~274, costs 35 tp. a 6hit build with hach hand/boots like you seem to have from your other post, gives you 33% tp, so 3 swings basically. 450 delay x 3 / 60 = 22 seconds. your going to need fulltime haste/march/gear to make yourself to get that tp back where as even utsusemi: ichi is only 4 seconds.

crit hits do that much dmg nearly, and firespit dose way of a hell lot more.


personally right now i mostly just play /drg btw for the haste. If you're going to take plucks at my 'age' or my 'experience' or 'zomg we had /wars and they made us die' then it's not a real discussion and i'm going to stop responding... please use real points.... i.e.: the shearwind comment which i did not know, and makes it more interesting.

is this really a discussion or a defense of aselus?

edit: what do you suggest the other sam sub if one was subbing dnc? lol

also, ppl posting in this thread have had capped sam merits for a long time (including myself)