Sanoske

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supahkhronic said:
Were taxes paid on the money that was earned from selling gil? Because if not, there are some laws being broken.
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Some laws are already being broken by selling material that did not even belong to this person.
Then again, it is not up to me to take steps.
All I can do is voice my own opinion.

A lot of posters here however seem to have have quite the double standards.
Suddenly an outstanding member of the community appears to be a gilseller and people that used to have the loudest voice against cheaters and gilsellers alike are starting to say it's ok because he was such a good player otherwise and look at how well he spent the money on education while he could make the same or even more money by just flipping McBurgers 8 hours a week.
But that wouldn't be any fun now, would it?

While when it's an otherwise healthy kid from a less fortunate country that is making less then a dollar a day to feed his family that cannot even pay for any education at all is chewed up and spat out by this same society.

Kind of amusing really that I can probably say without being wrong that atleast 2 people posting in this thread have bought or regularly buy gil too.
 
The best part of this all is, in a few months if someone not liked by the community (like Peregrine or Amerie, admits to buying or selling gil, the very people saying Sanoske is so cool for making 4k bucks from a game, will condemn said not-liked person.
 
Shirai said:
Some laws are already being broken by selling material that did not even belong to this person.
Then again, it is not up to me to take steps.
All I can do is voice my own opinion.

A lot of posters here however seem to have have quite the double standards.
Suddenly an outstanding member of the community appears to be a gilseller and people that used to have the loudest voice against cheaters and gilsellers alike are starting to say it's ok because he was such a good player otherwise and look at how well he spent the money on education while he could make the same or even more money by just flipping McBurgers 8 hours a week.
But that wouldn't be any fun now, would it?

While when it's an otherwise healthy kid from a less fortunate country that is making less then a dollar a day to feed his family that cannot even pay for any education at all is chewed up and spat out by this same society.

Kind of amusing really that I can probably say without being wrong that atleast 2 people posting in this thread have bought or regularly buy gil too.
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It's QCDN.

This thread would likely have turned out just about the same no matter what he did, or any other "outstanding member"

Flames are most always one sided. Board vs lesser known person.
 
Uzor said:
The best part of this all is, in a few months if someone not liked by the community (like Peregrine or Amerie, admits to buying or selling gil, the very people saying Sanoske is so cool for making 4k bucks from a game, will condemn said not-liked person.
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Personally I'd feel the same way about the individual's action. It would be my personal feelings towards whatever individual it may be that dictate anything else about my response. i.e. Pole-smoker, psycho bitch, etc.

And since Chasym has been brought up as something of a parallel, I'll discuss that for a second. Chasym hacked...A LOT. He also capitalized on the opportunity to share his hacks with the community, thus multiplying the effect they had. Hacking directly affects the continuity of game play for anyone that may be in the unfortunate scenario of "competing" with a hacker. We've all seen it. It's quite an unfair advantage, and it wastes individuals' and entire groups' time. Hacking is vastly different from gil selling, and causes far more issues for the honest player.

Also, it was mentioned that there is some distinction between gil sellers and gil buyers. While selling plays its part and is a cog in the wheel, it's the buyers that are the larger issue. Selling gil to a company (that wouldn't be used in the game economy to begin with) is essentially only "officially" removing it from the system. It has yet to be reintroduced. However, once it is brought back to the economy by a buyer, that buyer can cause much worse issues for the game and the state of the economy in various markets. Or even, merely allowing an individual to purchase an item they never truly earned, like the rest of the honest players.

I have much less of a problem with those that sell gil than I do with those who buy gil. Can't have one without the other, but it's the demand for the gil, the buyers, that create and sustain gil selling companies. Sure, Sano contributed to the sellers, and gave them something more to sell. But in the grand scheme of a gil selling company, the gil he handed over in 2 years would neither make or break that company. The amount of people buying, however, would.
 
No matter how you put it, it was an extremely shitty thing to do. You say your in-game actions dont describe how you are, but you seem to forget, like others have mentioned in this thread, you dont let out your max-assholeness in RL because there are checks and balances to that (i.e. jails and such). In-game, you can be the biggest dick, asshole, douchebag that you have always wanted to be but never could be in RL.

Like Miros said, you shoulda kept it to yourself because by putting this up, you naturally elicited a responsed from both the community that despises that shit, and those who back you up cuz they either a) have done it themselves, or b) are good friends with you and were your accomplices. And, even though it may not do TOO much good now, a report for RMT activity has been filed in your name as well as the necessary screenshots of you activity have been logged in case you a) decided to come back, or b) gave your account away to one of your "friends."

Bitch and moan all you want, but no, not EVERYONE has their price. That saying is just an excuse given by people wih shitty morals to justify them being corrupt people. Seriously, stfu and admit your a corrupt person instead of trying to make excuses. I for one could NEVER sell my acccount or my gil (as little as i have) because that would be like selling a part of myself. I have invested time, and effort into Hexx and would rather give it to a friend than let some RMT use it to further make this game a pain to others.

Nerd rage or w/e the fuck you wanna call it, I play this game solele for its entertainment value and the friends that i have made as well so take your douchebaggery elsewhere and quit making up excuses to justify your shitty actions.


That is all on my part.
 
For people being so moralistic with virtual items they don't own it comes down to a few separate options.

A. Sell your account/money ??? Profit

B. Just quit and give crap away, but don't delete your character because you always come back

C. Quit and delete character burn content ID's or whatever method you prefer to not come back

D. Wait for the gods in SE HQ to screw you over one day and tell you they are shutting the servers down and years of your life are gone anyways.
 
Grandphoenix said:
For people being so moralistic with virtual items they don't own it comes down to a few separate options.

A. Sell your account/money ??? Profit

B. Just quit and give crap away, but don't delete your character because you always come back

C. Quit and delete character burn content ID's or whatever method you prefer to not come back

D. Wait for the gods in SE HQ to screw you over one day and tell you they are shutting the servers down and years of your life are gone anyways.
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Except A isnt really an option. It's cheating and is wrong in many ways people already said. Your now allowed to do it, I have no idea why someone would make a post on something bad they did. Its like shouting in a public area that you robbed someone, except your done with the game and your free to do whatever you want now. <.<
 
Arthur said:
Except A isnt really an option. It's cheating and is wrong in many ways people already said. Your not* allowed to do it, I have no idea why someone would make a post on something bad they did. Its like shouting in a public area that you robbed someone, except your done with the game and your free to do whatever you want now. <.<
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not* :mad:
 
Sneaky finally said it:

While selling plays its part and is a cog in the wheel, it's the buyers that are the larger issue.
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It's supply and demand, just like anything else in the world. If people didn't buy gil, people couldn't sell it. But if there is a market, someone will always find it and provide the goods/service that the public is looking for.

I've always said gil buyers annoy me. It's the loudest way to scream you're addicted to this game, even though you suck miserably at it. So people selling to them is just natural. Don't hate the playa, hate the game, etc.

Difference with this is, while sure, its illegal I suppose, it's also pixels and worthless. The only value it holds is to the individual making the purchase. So if some clown out there has a few thousand dollars to spend on in game currancy, they're an idiot and deserve whatever bus will eventually hit them. But to the guy willing to get paid while hes playing a game he was gonna play anyway? Meh, to each their own.
 
This was my whole point in making this thread, I really just wanted to see how many people condone what this guy did. And I'll be damned if some people didnt say they would do this if givin the oportunity.

To me this is really sad for many reasons, I love my char it is an extension of myself just as it is for many who love final fantasy. I may not have the best rep around but I'll be damned if i quit and really just smear my name. I dont care if i could make a killing selling my char and gil , I dont care how broke in RL I am , I would never sell my char. period.

I have made some fantastic friends ingame. And I tell you nothing upsets me more then when someone I was friends with quits and sells thier char. Its never the same. You know you will never be able to emote said char and get a reply back because some stranger now belongs to the name that you knew. I couldnt imagine someone else playing PD. That would really upset me..

And anyone that thinks selling your char or your gil is ok for what ever reason, is as low as the RMT this thread is about. And obviously you never cared about your friends you made in this game.
 
I didn't see this thread, or I may have posted earlier.

I am one of those people who knew Sanoske was selling gil. So I treated him like any other RMT and MPK'd him shouting insults in Chinese. This is how I got to 75 before him and lvl'd BST, by consistent MPK of this threat to our game and way of life. Sanoske is basically a terrorist, threatening our day to day life, a man without character, without dignity, without respect for his fellow pixelated man.

Not really.

I think it is pretty much ridiculous to say such things, but people are. People are calling another person "trash" and what not, and that is what bothers me more than someone selling gil in the manner that Sanoske did. I mean, you are essentially degrading someone's humanity (trash is a great word to make people seem subhuman fyi) on the basis that they played a game, had more money than they knew what to do with, so they sold it for something they could use. To me that sounds like business sense to me, it isn't like Sanoske relied on this game to live or didn't receive benefit just out of playing. Being able to sell gil on the side was just an added bonus.

Let us weigh the scales of moral behavior - sell gil from a game via crafting without destroying markets and therefore negatively effecting other people's playtime in a measurable way, that you can point out - i.e. on January 17th or whatever, 2009, Sanoske's selling gil negatively effected my gaming experience in the way that follows [insert that here, and then show me proof] or you call someone trash and the like, a personal insult, to someone you may not even know. I'd tend to question the people who are willing to just go and throw insults over the internet.

The only thing he cared about as far as in-game activities besides conversing with his friends was crafting and his BLM. His BLM at a given time had most everything it could want, and the relic for the job is pointless so he just had gil laying around from trying to have an impressive crafting record.

To Rappa: I am not doing friend defense first off which is a no-no on the FB iirc. But you are committing a FB classic no-no: the RL claim! You consistently point out how 4k$ is not really that significant, the implication is that that is a subjective claim stemming from your RL success and wealth. Which is all fine and nice, but its an obvious claim to RL superiority to prove a claim.

Moreover, if it is a simple case of economics, we all know that people's preferences economically differ. Although, to you whatever the worth of your account could have been when you quit originally was not worth the value you placed on it in another way - a friend using it - you can not claim truthfully that your account also had a potential monetary value you could have walked away with, just at the present it did not have that value - or to you that 4k$ would not be that value that you would choose money over the other utility you would have gained. What if you got 20k or 50k or any other large amount for it? The point is it is preference over a preference. And that is subjective. People can gain different utility values from the same object or amount of money - duh. Just because Sanoske's utility value of 4k$ is greater than any other utility value he could gain from his account now would not be the same for you why should he act out of YOUR preference, and YOUR utility calculus.

The only claim you can make against Sanoske here is breaking ToS or something like that. In that case you are taking a pretty absolutist stance, as most people have broke the ToS in one way or the other. And even if they haven't by playing on ps2 or Xbox, if you played on PC you probably would use windower. But Rappa at least prefers to rely on RL claims, poor subjective judgment (abstracting a preference as the course of action that Sanoske, you, and I ought to act out of - which IMO is extremely shortsighted), and personal insults.

I am not saying RMTing is good, and grand, and everyone should do it. What I am saying is take things into account case by case, and use judgment before making claims instead of acting out of misplaced anger and haste.

Also, this isn't meant to increase the cycle of insults - so don't turn that on me. As you can tell, I never degrade those tossing insults, only question their judgment, the same thing goes for Rappa. I consider this a place to have open dialogue in a sense, and these are not personal attacks, just open dialogue where people don't have to be afraid of being shunned for making a cogent argument.
 
These people coming out saying that they new what he was doing the whole time, I just want to say you guys disgust me. And I really hope that noone reports this thread. Or acctually I do hope someone reports it, So all you ignorant gil selling fucks will get banned. We can do with out the lot of you.
 
They disgust you because he told them he was selling gil? What, exactly, did they do?

What, were you expecting them to immediately flame him on here and submit a STF report? Even if that had happened, what then?

That's even more shortsighted than the people calling him a terrible person IRL, to hate on the people that just happened to have been told what was going down.
 
I wasn't planning to post in this topic anymore, but since people seem determined to continue bringing me up, I'll make this one final post that sums up my feelings on the OP and the replies. If you want to continue going after me after this post, go ahead, I don't really care anymore.

1) "It's just a game" is never an excuse to do anything you want to in an MMO. To the people saying "it's just a game", you shouldn't be playing online games in the first place if you don't want to hear what other people think about the things that you do. That second M stands for Multiplayer. At the end of the day, cheating is the ultimate downfall for most games of this nature. As someone who's played more than just FFXI, I've seen many MMOs ruined by hacking/rmt/etc to the point where legit players just don't bother. It isn't just a game, it's an MMO. There's more to it.

On the flipside, just because I don't follow the "it's just a game" philosophy doesn't mean I'm obsessed with the game or anything as people seem to like implying. People only seem to understand extremes here. Either you laugh at how pointless the game is or you obsess over it during every waking hour? That's not how the world works. Some of us just play it off and on when we're bored. That doesn't mean we obsess over it and it certainly doesn't mean we don't care when people cheat.

2) RL Money. I'll go over this one more time, even though Audino covered it much better than I will here (which ironically enough, no one has called HIM out over, just me). $4k in 2 years = $2k in 1 year = not much money. That's not me being "elitist", that's not me attacking anyone's RL situation. That's me stating an honest fact. If $2k a year is a lot for you and your budget, why are you dipping a minimum of $155.40 ($12.95*12 months) into a game? That's a contradiction of logic. If you need this money, you should be out earning it. Keeping a dishonest company in business by selling them gil isn't the way you should be making money. As Sanoske himself said, this wasn't "life changing" money to him. He obviously didn't need it, he just wanted it.

3) Hypocrisy. Again another point made very clear by others but one that only I am getting shit on for stating. If you have ever been upset about people buying or selling gil, but you think it's okay that Sanoske/Odon did, you're being hypocritical. Why is it okay for people to put themselves through college by gilselling but it's not okay for people to make a living off of it to feed their families and put clothing on their backs? What is the distinction that makes it okay for some people to do it but not for others? Did they somehow "earn" the right to sell gil because they levelled a craft to 100? How is that any different than fishing up dils and npc dumping them? It seems rather pompous to decide who can or can't do something based solely on your personal opinion about the person rather than based on what they are doing.

I don't have anything else to add. If people want to continue going after me for standing up for my personal beliefs on the issue of gilselling, go right ahead. If you want to actually discuss the situation with me in a civil manner, fire me off an IM. All I'm going to say is that this topic was a real eye-opener to me and that quite frankly, I'm disappointed in a lot of this community and I'm not really sure if I even want to be a member of it anymore. I've said all that I wanted to say.
 
diamond said:
I bet his friends that didnt know dont feel like its horseshit.
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Seems they've been chiming in, and don't mind it so much.
Not that people need friends that don't know their head from their ass from a hole in the ground anyway.
 
Ok, I'm back. Mostly because it seems like this thread will carry on forever even without me.

Diamond, you started the OP. Good for you. Then you disappeared for 20 pages, only to come back and say exactly what you did in the beginning. I hope I get banned, that would be hilarious at this point. You fail to see that my actions on FFXI mean absolutely zero to me now. So you're near-blind hatred of me is pretty poorly based, on one action, with no prior knowledge of me or what I do. The only ignorance here is coming from you. Not using reason, and entirely unable to take a step back and look at things from beyond your pillar of morality.

But, I've found that some people are unable to view FFXI from outside FFXI. The game has become an all-consuming entity that suddenly blankets both virtual and real worlds. Yes, FFXI is more than a simple video game. I am more than willing to admit this. However, there is a point when it stops and for some will become just a game, for many reasons. I've said my gil selling wasn't pretty shitty for ingame reasons, numerous times. Not sure why people keep overlooking and calling me out for trying to change the view on what I did. Nope, never tried to. But the speech used in many of these posts, you'd think I shanked your dog and was trying to laugh it off.

At this point, there's not much I can say/do that hasn't already been done. So it's become more of a "Well, to hell with all of you guys." Maybe I should've just adopted this view from the beginning, rather than trying to be civil and possibly make a dent in the QCDN mob mentality and all of these seemingly upstanding moral crusaders who are, in fact, without sin.

Even now, I could be like my boy Odon and not give a fuck, or just start tearing into people like some have tried to do to me, but that's never been my style. So, it comes to down to a simple "whatever". Nothing is changing at this point, and the people who matter will still be talking to me tomorrow. The rest of you can enjoy your Crusade.
 
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