SATA'ing with THF Sub?

[Zerayla]

Last night myself and Xean were farming for some tree cuttings, and we both had our subs to thf for flee, TH and well, just the fun of using SA. The thing is that we came upon a discovery, at least something we had not been aware.

While fighting a Goobbue, Xean came behind me and used Trick Attack. He had asked me not to fight, so that we could see who actually took hate. Turns out that it was him, and that hate was never transferred to me.

A friend had said once that TA doesn't work when thf is subbed, and as far as we could tell (we did another test) this was true. So now we began to wonder if SATA worked if you had thf as sub, because we know that so many DDs use this after lvl 60.

Is anyone able to confirm if SATA works if you have thf subbed? Because if it doesn't, I really don't see why so many DDs sub thf when WAR has better stats, and double ATK (I believe thf sub will only give you SA and a few points to DEX and ACC)

 

[Myst]

It Works

It works Zer, otherwise I'd be tanking a lot during the static meets, especially post-Yukikaze.
Also, I've used TA-WSs before to get my someone else to take the hate for the fun of it while farming with others, followed by a Meditate, then SA-WS for the finish, before the person dies. (lol)

I'm not sure what happened there, but it could be something about you not being engaged. Personally, I'm not sure if that would cause problems since I've never used a TA on someone who wasn't engaged.

Also, did you test it multiple times? It may have just been a fluke with the lining up. Odd things happen sometimes.

I can think of another experience which, on the surface, would have nothing to do with this, but might provide some explaination with the hate mechanics of the game, and may apply to this, but it would require a lot of effort to explain.

Edited for thought completion. Just clarified the whole "farming" section. (I just woke up...)

 

[Darklion]

You know the mob has to be facing away from you correct?

If the mob see someone using TA then he won't fall for it unless you have assassin Which only a THF gets @ level 60.

Sata works best on sam I think but ofcourse they have to be facin away from tank when you sata.

 

[Khajit]

I've heard that TA isn't a 100% thing when subbed so thats much more likely.
The testing would be kinda difficult though since Ta doesnt give any attack bonus when subbed. Also assasin merely makes TA always hit and uses an AGI modifier for thf so asssasin has nothing to do with TA working the way it say it does in it's description.

 

[Darklion]

I've heard that TA isn't a 100% thing when subbed so thats much more likely.
The testing would be kinda difficult though since Ta doesnt give any attack bonus when subbed. Also assasin merely makes TA always hit and uses an AGI modifier for thf so asssasin has nothing to do with TA working the way it say it does in it's description.

Ah then I am wrong in my first post >.>

 

[Claxton]

Yall were probably using multi-hit weaponskills, and only the first hit in the WS gets transferred to the tank, while the other attacks give the user hate.

 

[Myst]

I've heard that TA isn't a 100% thing when subbed so thats much more likely.

Hate to say this, but where did you hear this from by chance?
SATA has always transferred hate for me (as SAM/THF), unless something out of the ordinary happens (mob changing direction for example, and in that case, SA doesn't even work).

Also, I didn't think about it, but Claxton's reasoning could be what's going on.
Though the original post didn't state it, something like that could easily be overlooked.

 

[Legomyeggo]

Trick Attack only boosts the attack by a little since subbed /Thf isn't effected by the Agi mods, so you'll notice a bigger difference when it's used with a Weapon Skill rather than a regular hit.

 

[Sneakypants]

Hate to say this, but where did you hear this from by chance?
SATA has always transferred hate for me (as SAM/THF), unless something out of the ordinary happens (mob changing direction for example, and in that case, SA doesn't even work).

Also, I didn't think about it, but Claxton's reasoning could be what's going on.
Though the original post didn't state it, something like that could easily be overlooked.

He said TA, and you are saying SATA.
Two very different things.

 

[etchdog2000]

TA does work as a sub/with the mob facing you/all the time.

Claxton, made a erronious comment. All the hits of a multi-hit WS are transferred with TA. SA only applys to the first hit.

You just have to line it up correctly.

I used to duo DC/EM stuff with a RDM. Of course RDM does a better job of tanking the mob. I used to TA Guillotine him to have him keep hate and still let me melee. I have used this method for a long time.

 

[Stouter]

He said TA, and you are saying SATA.
Two very different things.

So you're saying that it's the SA that's transferring hate, and TA is just there? Or are you saying TA only transfers hate when stacked with SA?

 

[Sneakypants]

So you're saying that it's the SA that's transferring hate, and TA is just there? Or are you saying TA only transfers hate when stacked with SA?

For non-THF main...TA is NOT guaranteed. It can work, just as with a pre-60 THF main. The extra critical hit damage you would get would be from SA though.

Assassin trait given to THF main at 60 does 2 things.
1) Makes TA a guaranteed hit with party/alliance member in between you and MOB.
2) Makes TA a critical hit, where as it previously was not.

 

[etchdog2000]

For non-THF main...TA is NOT guaranteed. It can work, just as with a pre-60 THF main. The extra critical hit damage you would get would be from SA though.

Just wanted to clear this up. What sneaky is saying is TA is NOT a guaranteed hit. If you do hit TA WILL transfer hate EVERY time.

 

[Jagster]

TA has nothing to do with being infront or behind the mob. Things weren't totally different pre-assassin. Sure TA on its own sucked always until assassin, but it did work without SA or WS. It was hard to tell though since the amount of damage done sucked and therefore hate transferred was so small.

Since I believe my own claim to be true, I think it was because your friend wasn't engaged.

 

[Tagrineth]

It's probably something about who is engaged to the mob. Might actually have something to do with the Bind MPK fix? A stealthed fix?

 

[CmdrFly]

While fighting a Goobbue, Xean came behind me and used Trick Attack. He had asked me not to fight, so that we could see who actually took hate. Turns out that it was him, and that hate was never transferred to me.

Since you never engaged, you weren't on the mob's hate table. You have to initiate an aggressive action on the mob to be placed on it's hate table; getting hate TA'd onto you before you're on the table will nullify the effects of said TA.

If you cast Paralyze or Dia or something stupid on it and then repeated these tests, you would be tanking.

 

[Myst]

Slightly Confused

He said TA, and you are saying SATA.
Two very different things.

I'm slighty confused on this one Sneaky.
I think Stouter may have gotten at what can be confusing, but here's where I was coming from:

My understanding of what Khajit was saying was that the hate transfer from TA was not 100% guaranteed without Assassin.
My point was that I've never seen SATA not transfer hate (with or without a WS) as a SAM/THF. Had this ever happened, the hate would stay with me and I would be tanking for the first bit of the fight.

In this situation, SATA and TA would produce the same effect of hate transferring, would it not? SATA just dealing more damage than TA would.

While TA on it's own can miss (as in "whiff", or Zanshin activating miss...and as Bigd pointed out), my point was questioning the idea of TA not transferring hate 100% of the time.

Edit: Rereading some of it, it could be that I just misinterpreted what Khajit said.
However, if they were refering to TA "whiffing", then that would be slightly off-topic, since the TAs were landing, it was a question about hate transfer.

 

[Tyrath]

TA transfers hate even when not stacked with SA. I've done it many times, mostly for fun with Souleater Guillotine

 

[CmdrFly]

What he said. TA's hate transfer is 100% guaranteed, IF it hits. THAT is the variable; TA by itself is not a guaranteed hit.

When stacked with SA and hit from behind, then you get a guaranteed hit (SA) and guaranteed hate transfer (TA).

 

[Sneakypants]

TA transfers hate even when not stacked with SA. I've done it many times, mostly for fun with Souleater Guillotine

Exactly. It does.
My 2 points above mentioned that it was possible. For THF pre-60, and any job trying to just TA, it is possible that you miss.
Assassin, the level 60 trait, THF onry, does the 2 things I mentioned.
1, it GUARANTEES that TA will land.
2, it GUARANTEES that TA will be a crit, as SA always has been.