scary video :(

You apparently only watched the first two seconds of the video. The video argues every point you attempted to make with ease. Income taxes are illegal and don't benefit us at all and I'm glad Ron Paul plans on making strong attempts at putting an end to it when he becomes president.
 
You want to list the points you think invalidate mine so I can argue you?

Just think of all the evil men in America and for all of this time people have done nothing. Do you really think all of America is this naive to have the wool pulled over thier eyes for so long?

Who's really naive?

If you don't pay your taxes just what do you think will happen?

What's your point?
 
We pay taxes on every damn thing else. We don't need federal income taxes as well.

1: The constitution forbids a direct tax on the people.

2: Wages aren't income. It's a fair exchange of work for money.

3: All of the money goes toward paying off the national debt and none of it benefits the people before it is spent.

4: There's massive evidence to support that the sixteenth amendment wasn't even properly ratified.

Yes, America is that naive. As you can see with the constant fear driven nonsense that government fills them with. Be afraid of witchcraft, or communism, or terrorism. The boogyman is gonna getcha! The constitution also states that only gold and silver can be legal tender and yet today we use pieces of paper that have no value because the Fed prints out massive amounts of it with nothing to back it up which leads to the devaluation of the dollar. Before the 20th century we didn't have income taxes, the IRS, the Federal Reserve, the CIA, Homeland Security, or any of the other massive bureaucracys that are far more harm than good.
 
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Right from the 16th Amendment sir.
1. "The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

2. Are you serious? If you don't have a dictionary handy, try this in google. "define: income"

3. http://money.howstuffworks.com/income-tax.htm
Do you know why America is the last Superpower left? TAXES thats right, TAXES. You don't have to fight Osama Bin Laden yourself and you sit at a computer while it happens because of TAXES, and you can't get enough money to finance a huge war-machine without big taxes.
Shitty yes, but you do live in it's envelope of protection.
If all of the money went to pay off the National Debt, there wouldn't be a National Debt left. This is actually the problem, not enough money goes to the National Debt. If you can't understand the concept of how winning wars benefits you, move to Africa for some first hand expierience.

4. Which is??????? (This will be fun)

"The constitution also states that only gold and silver can be legal tender"
You want to go back to 1861? You want to carry around Gold and Silver in your pocket? In this day and age, are you serious? I suppose you used Gold and Silver to pay your FFXI account?
You probably have the strongest case for being right in this argument, as stupid as it is. Think about your world today, and think about this for a second.

And again I ask, Even if you were right, which you arn't, what is the point of arguing that taxes are illegal? Taxes made America what it is today, it's like your arguing with a success that already has happened.

After over a hundred years of taxes America got built into what it is today. Do you need to hide under your desks anymore?

What's your point? After taxes give you one the best standards of living in the world your gonna bitch and moan?

I can say that we pay too much taxes. But saying we should create some fantasy in our minds that taxes are illegal borders insanity, unless of course if you live in Africa.
 
The debate isnt against ALL taxes. Just "income tax" which is defined as a tax on profits. The money we make isnt profit. Its a direct trade of services for pay. Thats it.

The video describes how the other taxes we pay go into the communities we live in. Like the gas taxes help pave the roads. Property tax pays for schools/Police/Firefighters/ect.

I think the reason that whenever people bring up the whole "Income Tax isn't legal" argument and then the govt. dismisses it, its because well: If out of the blue the government outright said that "We were wrong to tax your income" do you know what kind of class action lawsuit would come out of this? Everyone and their mother would be waiting outside the Whitehouse with their hands out, and for good reason.
 
Back in the late 1800s, we had the receipts (dollar bills) that were actually backed up by real gold and you could exchange your receipts for that gold at any time. The government decided to print out more money than they had people started to get their gold back and eventually they were no longer allowed to do that. Now we see a constant increase in the price of gold and silver even though it's suppose to be a constant set amount. It isn't because the dollar is constantly devalued every time the Fed prints out that fake money.

Ron Paul on the Fed
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ji_G0MqAqq8

The Federal Reserve is illegal as well. It's a private central bank that coins money and doesn't have to report to congress. Congress is the only people constitutionally allowed to coin money.

Here's Ron Paul (a U.S. Congressman) on Income Tax:
Cough Up

by Ron Paul

April 15th, our national tax day, comes this year just as Congress prepares to pass the 2007 federal budget. If you think paying taxes was painful this year, I’ve got some bad news: the new budget is a grotesque illustration of everything wrong with the federal government. At $2.7 trillion, it’s the largest budget in U.S. history by a long shot. Like it or not, the pressure to raise your taxes will be enormous in coming years no matter who controls Congress. The amount of money government spends, borrows, and prints simply cannot be sustained.

For most people, their income tax return represents their most meaningful interaction with the federal government. It requires them to confess their actions over the past year to the IRS in excruciating detail. It's an annual ritual guaranteed to elicit strong feelings of disgust. Thanks to the deception of income tax withholding, however, some people actually look forward to tax time and a much-anticipated refund. Imagine how quickly Americans would demand lower taxes and spending if they had to write the federal government a check each month.

Most people understandably want a simpler income tax system, but it’s useless to discuss tax reform without spending reform. Who wants a 40% flat tax? Who wants a national sales tax if it adds 50% to the retail price of everything we buy? In other words, why change the tax structure if spending stays the same? Once we accept that Congress needs $2.7 trillion from us, the only question is how it will be collected. The current answer is the labyrinthine tax code, which pits taxpayers against each other in a political scramble to make sure the other guy pays. The truth is that Congress does not need $2.7 trillion, or anything close to it, to fund the proper constitutional functions of the federal government.

The only tax reform needed is to lower or abolish existing taxes. When reform proposals seem complicated, the reason is simple: they obscure their true nature as schemes to shift the tax burden around. It’s not who pays or how we pay; it’s how much we pay.

The real enemy of tax reform is the spending culture in Washington. Let me repeat: we will never have tax reform in this country until Congress changes its spending habits. The reform rhetoric, regardless of which party it comes from, never changes the reality that federal spending grows every year. Congress spent $2.4 trillion in the last Bush budget; the new budget proposes to spend $2.7 trillion. The same unconstitutional agencies are funded, the same unwise programs are perpetuated, but at higher levels than last year. The previous budget serves merely as a baseline; the only question in any given year is how much spending will increase. Once created, no spending program is ever eliminated. The cycle goes on and on, with different administrations and different people in Congress.

But could America exist without an income tax? The idea seems radical, yet in truth America did just fine without a federal income tax for the first 126 years of her history. Prior to 1913, the government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes, and property taxes, without ever touching a worker's paycheck. Even today, individual income taxes account for only approximately one-third of federal revenue. Eliminating one-third of the proposed 2007 budget would still leave federal spending at roughly $1.8 trillion – a sum greater than the budget just 6 years ago in 2000! Does anyone seriously believe we could not find ways to cut spending back to 2000 levels? Perhaps the idea of an America without an income tax is not so radical after all. It’s something to think about this week as we approach April 15th.
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Must You Pay Income Tax?
by Bob Huebner

FOR INDIVIDUALS, INCOME TAX IS A VOLUNTARY TAX

The above statement makes many people skeptical when they read it. However, the basic reason for the truth of the statement is really very simple.

THE U.S. CONTITUTION FORBIDS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO IMPOSE ANY TAX DIRECTLY UPON INDIVIDUALS.

INDIVIDUALS VOLUNTARILY IMPOSE AN INCOME TAX UPON THEMSELVES WHEN THEY FILE AN INCOME TAX RETURN.

Read on and learn why. You will be glad you spent a few minites to learn about these important facts.

AMERICANS ARE CONFUSED AND DECEIVED

Before World War II, individuals' wages were not considered to be subject to income taxes. During the war a "Victory Tax" was imposed on wages as an emergency measure to help pay for the war. The people did not realize that government could not constitutionally impose any tax directly on them, so they assumed that individuals and their earnings could be taxed directly.

The Internal Revenue Service intentionally promoted this misunderstanding of taxing power through clever wording of its statements, publications and propaganda news releases. Consequently, Americans have been deceived into believing that they are required to pay an income tax which is laid on them directly by govenment. However, when the IRS's publications, U.S. Supreme Court decisions and the Internal Revenue Code (income tax law) are studied carefully, they show that for individuals, paying income tax is voluntary and that the filing of tax forms is also a voluntary action that is not required by law.

CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITATIONS ON TAXING POWER

In order to understand why paying income tax and filing tax forms are voluntay actions for individuals, it is essential to understand the limitations on federal taxation embodied in the United States Constitution.The statemen who wrote the Constitution were fully aware of the dangers to liberty allowing a central govenment to impose taxes directly upon individuals or upon property.

Tyranny resulting from direct taxation of individuals had led to the American Revolution only 12 years earlier when all the taxes collected amounted to less than 5% of the colonists earnings. This tyranny was referred to in the Declaration of Independence where in describing the reasons for the revolution, the founding fathers stated:"He(King George III) has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance".

Because of the knowledge of these facts, the framers of the Constitution include not one, but two limitations in the Constitution that absolutely forbid the federal government to impose any direct taxes upon individuals or upon property. All direct taxes are required to be "apportioned", which means that they must be laid upon the state governments in proportion to earch state's population.

The limitations forbidding direct taxation of individuals are found first in Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3, which states: "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective numbers..", and again in Article 1, Section 9, Clause 4, which states: "No Capitation or other direct Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration hereinbefore directed to be taken." These basic sections of the have never been repealed or amended. The Constitution still forbids direct taxation of individuals and property.
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Required direct taxes ARE illegal. If you don't like our constitution then there are plenty of other corrupt places to live.
 
Did I forget to mention that the film maker is a millionaire. He currently faces 2 million of tax liens filed against him by the IRS., California and New York for unpaid State and Federal Taxes.
 
That's because he refuses to pay the illegal income taxes and I support him 100%. Most of my jobs automatically take out taxes, otherwise I'd be doing the same thing. I'd still pay state and local taxes as well as social security, etc. But that is still a voluntary thing.
 
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Bustaballs said:
Now we see a constant increase in the price of gold and silver even though it's suppose to be a constant set amount.
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What makes you think gold and silver would ever be, or has ever been a set constant amount?????

The Federal Reserve is illegal as well. It's a private central bank that coins money and doesn't have to report to congress. Congress is the only people constitutionally allowed to coin money.
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The Federal Reserve was created by the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.
It is headed by a chairman appointed by the president of the united states and he must report to Congress twice a year.
Its purpose was created so our government had a vitually unlimited pool of money from which to draw from in times of financial crisis. Why isn't it being paid back? Ask President Bush.

But could America exist without an income tax? The idea seems radical, yet in truth America did just fine without a federal income tax for the first 126 years of her history. Prior to 1913, the government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes, and property taxes, without ever touching a worker's paycheck.
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Theres alot of stuff people did without in the first 126 years in America.
TV
Air Conditioning
Mass produced Automobiles
internet
computers

Sure we could exists without income taxes, I could even exist without a toilet and shower if I had to, but is there any point to argue about such a ridiculuos assertion? We could also have kept going to war with Nazi germany to this very day had we not created such a large army through INCOME TAXES.

Required direct taxes ARE illegal. If you don't like our constitution then there are plenty of other corrupt places to live.
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Right from the 16th Amendment sir.
1. "The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/usc_sup_01_26.html

Where in the constitution does it say direct taxes ARE ILLEGAL?
I've quoted you laws and text from the 16th amendment, you claim to have proof, where is it?

http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/readingroom/2001ctm/40ctax.htm
 
Bustaballs said:
That's because he refuses to pay the illegal income taxes and I support him 100%. Most of my jobs automatically take out taxes, otherwise I'd be doing the same thing. I'd still pay state and local taxes as well as social security, etc. But that is still a voluntary thing.
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You fill out your own tax forms don't you? Make sure you get it all back and practice what you seem to be preeching here. Remember paying taxes in voluntary, as you protesters say.

Or are you all mouth?
 
Darkdante said:
What makes you think gold and silver would ever be, or has ever been a set constant amount?????
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Because gold and silver was money once. The receipts were worth a set amount of gold and silver. You don't go to the bank and find out the value of the $5 bill has devalued to $2 and so that's all you can get. The same thing worked with gold and silver but when you weren't allowed to exchange your receipts for gold and silver anymore, the Fed printed more money than we had, thus devaluing the dollar. Our dollar is only worth about one to fours cents compared to the original federal reserve dollar bill in 1913.

Darkdante said:
The Federal Reserve was created by the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.
It is headed by a chairman appointed by the president of the united states and he must report to Congress twice a year.
Its purpose was created so our government had a virtually unlimited pool of money from which to draw from in times of financial crisis. Why isn't it being paid back? Ask President Bush.
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No one in the Fed reports to congress. Find me any current record of them doing so. Also, it's not the just the president's job to make sure congress is doing its job. That's also up to the American people and the Supreme Court.


Darkdante said:
Theres alot of stuff people did without in the first 126 years in America.
TV
Air Conditioning
Mass produced Automobiles
internet
computers

Sure we could exists without income taxes, I could even exist without a toilet and shower if I had to, but is there any point to argue about such a ridiculuos assertion? We could also have kept going to war with Nazi germany to this very day had we not created such a large army through INCOME TAXES.
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Wrong. We completely overspend on everything because we have this seemingly limitless money. Because there is so much money, they can spend our money however they want on whatever they want. However, if you actually spend appropriately and responsibly, you don't need income taxes at all. They don't benefit us at all. Read the damn articles and watch the video before you try to make an argument about something you know nothing about.

Darkdante said:
Right from the 16th Amendment sir.
1. "The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/usc_sup_01_26.html

Where in the constitution does it say direct taxes ARE ILLEGAL?
I've quoted you laws and text from the 16th amendment, you claim to have proof, where is it?

http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/readingroom/2001ctm/40ctax.htm
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[/quote]

That right there made it VERY obvious that you don't know anything and that you didn't read what I posted. You just skip all evidence and write based on your limited knowledge. Read what I posted and try again. It quotes the constitution directly. Or you could just read the constitution yourself: Article 1 section 9 clause 4. That clause has not been repealed and thus makes the 16th amendment invalid.

Even if you take the 16th amendment into consideration:

Income has been defined by the Supreme Court as being a corporate tax on profit.

Wages <> profit

Also, by being arrested over not paying voluntary taxes, you are being violated of your 5th amendment rights.



The constitution says only congress can coin money. Congress no longer coins money.

The constitution says only gold and silver can be legal tender. Gold and silver are no longer legal tender.

The constitution says there can be no direct unapportioned taxes on the people.

The constitution says congress must declare war. Congress has not declared war since WWII and we've been in dozens of wars since then.

Bottom line is that our country has fled very far from our creators intents and the constitution that made (what use to be) the greatest country.
 
America does have a limitless amount of money, and because of this, the dollar is devalued. Bustaballs is right. Ill reserve this post for the link when I find it. I wanna know how, exactly, America somehow magically has over 8 trillion dollars.. No idea whatsoever. (and thats just the debt

Also, gold and silver are much more scarce than paper. Thats why Gold and Silver dont lose as much of their value

I wouldve liked to live here when america was actually as great as the stories were, lol
 
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Ron Paul supports going back to a gold standard. =)

Maybe he'll nationalize the Liberty Dollar

http://www.libertydollar.org/

I love the quotes on that site. That site also goes into good detail about the illegality of the Federal Reserve, IRS, and income tax in the FAQ.
 
one thing I do notice, though, is that America is not the only country thats in the same situation (money-wise)

Japan for instance. They owe over 170% of their GDP (Gross Domestive Value. Basically they owe 170% more than EVERYTHING they have in Japan.)

America owes around 65-70% of their GDP. Still a lot, though :(

And also, That Ron Paul is interesting, I will keep reading lol. But there is one bad thing about going back to gold standard. Many people will be put on the streets, because of its limitation. But, I guess in order to become a better nation with better people, you need to make your sacrifices :/
 
No, he wouldn't just straight up make it the only option, but he would make it A option and slowly allow the economy to work itself back into being backed by real sound money.

Yeah, we borrow billions of dollars from foreign nations every day. Imagine if they decided to stop accepting our currency because they know it isn't backed by anything. We'd be fucked.
 
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Bustaballs said:
Because gold and silver was money once. The receipts were worth a set amount of gold and silver. You don't go to the bank and find out the value of the $5 bill has devalued to $2 and so that's all you can get. The same thing worked with gold and silver but when you weren't allowed to exchange your receipts for gold and silver anymore, the Fed printed more money than we had, thus devaluing the dollar. Our dollar is only worth about one to fours cents compared to the original federal reserve dollar bill in 1913.
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Thats because they were backed by gold, they wern't after 1971. You could always invest your dollars into gold, or anything that gains in value faster than inflation.

If you don't have the brains to manage your finances, well, you have no one to blame but yourself don't you?

No one in the Fed reports to congress. Find me any current record of them doing so.
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Here's one by Alan Greenspan that took 2 seconds to find from google.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/hh/2004/february/testimony.htm
Heres another from the new guy.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5206896

Also, it's not the just the president's job to make sure congress is doing its job. That's also up to the American people and the Supreme Court
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Are you trying to say the President does not have the power to pay back the National Debt? How come Clinton could do it?

Wrong. We completely overspend on everything because we have this seemingly limitless money.
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Yes, see your learning. Like I said the Federal Reserve was created just for this purpose. Even if we don't collect enough taxes we will still have enough credit to seem like we have enough money. We'll just have larger debt for our crappy Presidents not to pay off.

However, if you actually spend appropriately and responsibly, you don't need income taxes at all.
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If we had these kinds of perfect people in the world, credit would not exist would it? If we had these kinds of perfect people in the world we wouldn't even need a Miliatry would we?

That clause has not been repealed and thus makes the 16th amendment invalid.
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Amendment means a change has occured, read a dictionary before you answer.
The 16th Amendment also states "from whatever source derived".

Bottom line is that our country has fled very far from our creators intents and the constitution that made (what use to be) the greatest country.
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Thats an easy answer, do everyone else a favor and leave.
 
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