Serious Question.

[Rorschach]

Ok to Rones: The first paragraph summed it up pretty nicely since that was the only answer that Lavi was origionally posing to us. Btw where is lavi anyway? lol

But yes we all understand that in FFXI no one has sole controll of any perticular item so what you do state is correct, and we can just go somewhere else for that item or farm it ourselves. And the person would lose alot of money trying to controll a specific resource. And you were correct afterwards when you stated its practicality in the economic society. I'm not debating that, the debate is that of a monopoly, even if its a hyopthetical one, in FFXI and you already stated that its wrong.

From what i read in the little write-up in your link to Adam Smith, I like what he's about. But even it said that "Adam Smith's fundamental argument was that individuals should be allowed to pursue their own private economic interests as much as possible and so long as they do not violate basic principles of justice." What's said here covers both our statements quite well ^^.

The sad thing is that, a lot of the time, people do violate other people's rights. Such as sweatshops and others like the diamonds that come from Africa where people are being treated as slaves through military actions from their own people. But thats a whole other argument entirely.

 

[Darkdante]

Rorschach......

You write a whole lot of good looking bullshit.

You don't fucking know what a monopoly is.

I did not judge you, I left it open for you to decide yourself if you were being judged, or too see if you had no reason to defend yourself. I'm glad you see it my way, so I'll do you a favor and judge you now. Your a hypocrite ok?

It is not wrong because you do the same damn thing everyday.
And if it is, you have no right to judge someone for something that you yourself are guilty of, if your Immoral then, hell.... fix yourself first.

If you only want to talk about what happens in game, like anybody would give a fuck if its Immoral or not solely in game? Its Immoral to kill, and Its immoral to kill mass animals for sport but I guess that moral value just went out the window with the invention of this fucking game now didn't it? It is IMMORAL to force someone to farm for days and days for an item merely because they want to have fun, in game, playing into SE's greedy little hands. If you want to be holier than thou think of that next time you sell a high priced item and how much the person buying that item had to actually work for a game that they bought to have "fun".

As I said before if your a religious nut please disregard my statements because I know if you are like Rorschach here intelligence and rational become secondary to your moral values. In other words there is no arguing with you, your moral values is greater than all. And your moral values are yours alone and not anybody elses.

Having MORAL values solely for game only is stupid in my opinion. If you wanna argue moral values than argue moral values. The only reason anybody would argue about moral values is so that you can learn and aplly them to real life, to be a better person. What the fuck is Moral values gonna do for you in game ONLY?

I shoulda known better than to come argue with some moral value nuts.

 

[Rorschach]

Ok well when i read this i though "hey, he might be right. I might not know what the exact definition of a monopoly is. Wouldnt I just look dumb if I thought it was where one person or group of people owned sole supply of a specific reasource. Maybe I should check out a few diferent places and see what the real definition is..."

Well /slap me in the face and call me Nancy.

It seams that both dicationary.com and wikipedia.org both say:

mo·nop·o·ly - Exclusive control by one group of the means of producing or selling a commodity or service.

monopoly

A business that is the sole supplier of a particular good or service.

In economics, a monopoly (from the Greek monos, one + polein, to sell) is defined as a persistent market situation where there is only one provider of a kind of product or service. Monopolies are characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable substitute goods.

Wow looks really similar to the origional situation ( as hypothetical as it is in this game ) lets check it one more time to make sure...

Lavi wrote:

I mean a single person buys the entire stock of an item, usually very expensive, on the AH and since the item is very limited in stock (in other words a high level craft item or rare NM drop) now controls the entire stock of said item.

Interesting it seems that Lavi's origional stiuation does sound like what a monopoly is.

Even Rones had something to say about the origional situation that we were given... Whats that Rones?

If their was a static supply of the product, as in no more ever created or entering the market, then yes it would be wrong because it is a monopoly.

Well i'll be damned! It IS a monopoly. Who'da thunk it?

On a side note, what is a monopoly since I, Lavi, Rones, the dictionary and an encyclopedia dont know? :roll:

Then, out of nowhere you say this little bit of sunshine:

It is not wrong because you do the same damn thing everyday.
And if it is, you have no right to judge someone for something that you yourself are guilty of, if your Immoral then, hell.... fix yourself first.

Ok first off what the FUCK are you talking about? You dont know me. You dont know my AH dealings. You dont know what I do in real life. So dont talk about shit you dont know.

Last time I checked I didnt run monopolies in real life. I'm too poor to do so. :lol: :shock: I dont run monopolies in-game, for the same reason.

Are you refrencing what you said before when you asked if I shop at Wal-mart? Well I dont so... theres that. And just so you know a lot of US merchandise is made overseas. And things that arent, cost a good amount of money since they actually pay their workers a real wage. So like I said before, I'm damned if i do and damned if i dont.

Then, after you tell me what my life is since you apperantly know me better then i know myself :roll: , you then argue the same side of morality that I did. Then in the next sentence, inside the same paragraph that you agree with most of my arguements mind you, you again tell me that i should " think of that the next time i sell a high priced item and how much the person buying that item had to actually work for a game that they bought to have "fun".

Well Newsflash fool. The arguement was the morality and "rightness" of a monoploy. Most of us are in aggreement that they are wrong. And again, you dont know what I do when I put stuff on the AH so... stfu.

Then you bring religion into this again. Why? What if i were agnostic or athiest? Can't I just be a good person? If I werent a person who believed in God, would that mean that I'm going to be a total jerk in-game? Would it mean that since I didnt believe in a higher power I would HAVE to act cut-throat as i can? I dont see your reasoning in what the basis for someones morality or ethics has to do with anything. When I play this game, I try to be as honest as I can be, because thats who I am. Most people do. That's why most people who, lets say provide teleports in Jeuno for gil dont disband as soon as they get the gil and run off.

And on a side note. When you said that "intelligence and rational become secondary to your moral values", what intelligence and rational do you mean? The one that most everyone employes in everyday life, or that of the game like in the above example? Rational and intelligence coincide with morals and ethics all the time (or alteast most of the time). Ever hear of the "golden rule"? Its both rational and moral so your arguement goes down the toilet.

Having MORAL values solely for game only is stupid in my opinion. If you wanna argue moral values than argue moral values. The only reason anybody would argue about moral values is so that you can learn and aplly them to real life, to be a better person. What the fuck is Moral values gonna do for you in game ONLY?

What are you trying to say here honestly. I mean it looks like there is an idea here, but it warps in a way that only M.C. Essher could warp something. Have you read any of the posts that anyone has made here? We started talking about if something is wrong in a game, then we related it to how things work in economics in real life and the morality that goes with it. See we did take the subject to the real life. So what is your arguement?

If its to the origional question of why its wrong to make a monopoly in a game. The answer is simple. Because this is a forum dedicated to a game and this is the General Discussion of said forum. Thats all the reason to ask this question, and you dont need any more reason then that. If you dont like the topic, dont post. Dont drag it out with your half-assed attempt to make a point full of things you dont know anything about (like how I live my life).

I shoulda known better to come argue with some idiot who doesnt know how to argue his own point correctly.

 

[Darkdante]

Ok well when i read this i though "hey, he might be right. I might not know what the exact definition of a monopoly is. .

Yes you are right you don't fucking know what it is the hell you are talking about. My god you write so long boring ass posts I have yet to read one in full. Here I'll make a good one for you.

And I'm going to say this one last time, its not a question of "Can this work?" Its a question of "If this were to happen, is it wrong?" And everyone, including the Capitolist American Government says that monopolies are wrong. Period. I'm not going to debate the "rightness or wrongness" of a monopoly since that question has been answered already.

Yes you are right a MONOPOLY of this kind is bad for economies. However, while you can have a MONOPOLY on an item, if there is an alternative to that item OR another way to get that item that MONOPOLY has no effect on the economy like said example.

Here lets look at your definition that your so stupidly trying to quote me that you DID NOT READ YOURSELF.

A business that is the sole supplier of a particular good or service.

So what if you buy all the stock in the AH does that now make you SOLE SUPPLIER OF THE ITEM IN QUESTION????? :?: :?: :!:
Does it now mean they cannot farm or craft the item themselves? Does that mean nobody else can farm and craft the item also and then be a supplier themselves?

It is true it DEPENDS on the item in question. Do I know of an item that this is possible in game? NO. Why? Because if you can make something then with an equal amount of work OR BRAINS so can I. Take the PCC for instance, since this is probably the reason something dumb like this comes up and morals get stupidly thrown in the mix.

Yes, phraust and crew may sort of a monopoly on the PCC. But there are alternatives to it, IS IT REQUIRED TO HAVE A PCC TO LVL A MELEE JOB? NO. There are alternatives, you don't need to buy a PCC, although it is GREAT TO HAVE. Is a Monopoly over a Jack-n-the-box Cheese Burger bad for the economy? No. Why? Because while the Jack-n-the-box Cheese Burger is the best tasteing burger there is if you jack the price up to high I buy an ALTERNATIVE, ex. McDonalds.

]What are you trying to say here honestly. I mean it looks like there is an idea here, but it warps in a way that only M.C. Essher could warp something. Have you read any of the posts that anyone has made here? We started talking about if something is wrong in a game, then we related it to how things work in economics in real life and the morality that goes with it. See we did take the subject to the real life. So what is your arguement?

The problem: It's the same problem I've had from the begining of this post. You people throw around the world IMMORAL like its the equivalent of the word "Wrong", it is not.

-violating principles of right and wrong
-base: not adhering to ethical or moral principles; "base and unpatriotic motives"; "a base, degrading way of life"; "cheating is dishonorable"; "they considered colonialism immoral"; "unethical practices in handling public funds"
-morally unprincipled; "immoral behavior"
bad: characterized by wickedness or immorality; "led a very bad life"
-depraved: marked by immorality; deviating from what is considered right or proper or good; "depraved criminals"; "a perverted sense of loyalty"; "the reprobate conduct of a gambling aristocrat"

If you view making a profit with very little work as "IMMORAL", hell your very existance as a person in a civilized world should be IMMORAL as well. We all profit off of the work of others, if you want to be stupid and not believe that or not is entirely up to you. But pointing a finger and calling somebody IMMORAL for doing the same thing you do when you shop and buy cheap shit made in another country, well thats a cheap shot and pretty IMMORAL if you ask me.

You people "PROFIT" off of the hard work of people much more deserving than you everyday. Everytime you buy that 2 dolla comb, everytime you buy that 50 cent razor somebody had to slave over that thing that you take for granted. Don't poison the minds of everyone by saying people who make a profit wisely are IMMORAL they are just like you.

If this post gets lost because of a server error and I have to write this again Im gonna scream.

 

[Darkdante]

What it basically boils down to is this. The crazy people on this thread has replaced the word "gilseller" with the word "Immoral". They have basically changed the direction which they "attack" the same problem and the same people.

But it boils down all the same, its not the seller you should have a problem with, its the buyer.

The "easy" thing to do is to go after the seller, will this fix anything? No, because if theres an insane demand there will always be sellers, you need to fix the demand, because thats where it starts. The hard thing that will fix the problem and make it "worthwhile" is to go after the buyer.

Do the "hard work" that you all seem to preech so much about and maybe you'll get your wish.

http://www.qcdn.org/viewtopic.php?t=11209

 

[Rorschach]

Ok well read what i said one last time. I said:

Wow looks really similar to the origional situation ( as hypothetical as it is in this game )

See where it says "as hypothetical as it is in this game"? Yeah i know that its damn near impossible for it to happen. But it doesnt mean that if it could happen that it wouldnt be wrong.

My god you write so long boring ass posts I have yet to read one in full.

Yeah well maybe if you did you would have found out that I do know that its pretty impossible to get a monopoly over anything in this game. Thats not the issue. Its not that it can or that it is, its IF it did happen. How many times do i have to say that? I swear its like the 4th time so far. If your not going to read a post atleast skim the damn thing so you dont look like an ass.

And for your google search on immoral and wrong. Heres where you shot down your whole arguement.

Google wrote:

-violating principles of right and wrong

Well there you go. First sentence and it says in black and white "violating prinicpals of right and wrong". See. Wrong. Right there. Its clear as day.

I would write more but I made my points and you dont seem to want to read them before you post so theres no point. /goodbye

 

[Darkdante]

OMG you make me cry. Imma go eat.

To be continued.........

Maybe I'll be in a better mood and not trash you too much for posting that.

 

[Nevil]

Part of the problem is that a lot of people are very impatient and don't care about overpaying. If more people would simply not buy the overpirced items, then it would backfire on the seller. Sooner or later it will get to a point were the seller will give up trying to make a profit, and instead will try to get rid of them ASAP, in an atempt to cut his/her losses. :twisted: