Should we all level a merit job first?

[K. Ishitar]

It's saying let people play the jobs they like rather than force them to play the cannon jobs. That's what he later said after my post, but in this one it's all about experimentation of the jobs and not wanting everyone to be molded.

I was aiming for self experimentation and finding jobs that might be more fun than the regular merit jobs, I'm not saying there is stuff that will "revolutionize" anything(you seem to infer this), i was just aiming for having fun and learning it the hard way since some of the advice we can give may seem far fetched until they learn it.

everyone has to test and learn somethings for themselves to realize there is better, learning never hurts that's all I'm saying, when they need help there are others to push them in the right direction.

I was attempting to clarify what I said earlier in my first post with a second post describing what I meant, vagueness is a fault of mine D:

 

[Selph]

I guess I'll never have the opportunity to cannon lawl as jobs are SMN and comin soon RNG. RNG could happen I guess.

back to OP: I don't think people should level any particular sets of job first to 75. I do agree that jobs that require a fairly steady income of gil to level, such as RNG, COR, and NIN shouldn't be that first job. If the game wanted you to do something like every other player in the game, where would the individuality come in? Everyone in SH? Oh,..wait....that already happened didnt it.....

 

[jamal]

The thing newer players should really realize is that if they are not an Elite cannon, don't go to the 2 prime merit zones (Thix North & Nyzul Isle Mamools). You don't know how discouraging it is when the only two places where your potential experience can be realized is being taken up by a PLD tank, a thf puller, or a somewhat gimpy cannon pt that thinks they're l33t. Realize your limitations, and avoid those spots, so that people who can get the full utilization out of them can make use of them. I hate to see the only 2 merit spots filled, its a waste. If you are there with a subpar merit party, expect to hear from me if I happen to show up
Hint: If you think Birds can be good exp, then go there.

 

[Mishaela]

I guess I'll never have the opportunity to cannon lawl as jobs are SMN and comin soon RNG. RNG could happen I guess.

back to OP: I don't think people should level any particular sets of job first to 75. I do agree that jobs that require a fairly steady income of gil to level, such as RNG, COR, and NIN shouldn't be that first job. If the game wanted you to do something like every other player in the game, where would the individuality come in? Everyone in SH? Oh,..wait....that already happened didnt it.....

Individuality comes to an end when everyone wants to be the best they can be, y'know? =/ It's not like people can hop on NIN and be like "Hm, do I want 10acc/10eva or 7acc/eva/att? Wait, I'll go with 5acc and 20eva!"...all jobs are unfortunately stuck with one "best" piece of gear for the most part, and have virtually no gear that's debatably/comparably better than one another (not counting weapons).

As of now virtually the close to comparable armor pieces is Jaridah Peti vs Scorpion Harness, and even that's a bit of a long shot.

 

[Soujiro]

Something else I forgot to say was that I've known a ton of people over the years that have done what the OP is suggesting and are still kicking themselves in the ass over it. PLD mains that thought it'd be a good idea to take BRD to 75 for the merit parties or all the ones that levelled BLM back when manaburn was the only way people were doing anything.

Now those players are asked to come to any type of event as jobs they don't want to play and they hate it. It's sad to see someone that has X job fully merited, geared to the gills, being told to come to something as BRD, that has 0 merits, nothing other than AH equipment, so they can be a Ballad whore. You need to think about this when levelling a job. If it's one of these jobs that are high in demand for everything then expect to be playing it alot. In short, do not take a job to 75 that you don't wish to play. If you join some type of endgame activity shell and tell them what jobs you have and you say, "my BRD is only for merits," they are probably going to laugh at you and tell you to keep looking for another shell. They expect you to be availible to use any of your jobs and most of them for some reason or another could care less about how poorly equipped/merited that bandwagon job is in comparison to your favorites.

 

[Lavi]

The thing newer players should really realize is that if they are not an Elite cannon, don't go to the 2 prime merit zones (Thix North & Nyzul Isle Mamools). You don't know how discouraging it is when the only two places where your potential experience can be realized is being taken up by a PLD tank, a thf puller, or a somewhat gimpy cannon pt that thinks they're l33t. Realize your limitations, and avoid those spots, so that people who can get the full utilization out of them can make use of them. I hate to see the only 2 merit spots filled, its a waste. If you are there with a subpar merit party, expect to hear from me if I happen to show up
Hint: If you think Birds can be good exp, then go there.

Because your wants really matter to everyone else... And does this mean when you're experiencing on BST, I can kick your ass from the camp regardless because you are gimping the possible exp in that camp? See what I did there? :nyam:

 

[Halifirien]

Because your wants really matter to everyone else... And does this mean when you're experiencing on BST, I can kick your ass from the camp regardless because you are gimping the possible exp in that camp? See what I did there? :nyam:

I had the same thought, and his post made me laugh. If my party is in a camp first, I don't care if we're "making the most of it." We're there.

 

[pchan]

The thing newer players should really realize is that if they are not an Elite cannon, don't go to the 2 prime merit zones (Thix North & Nyzul Isle Mamools). You don't know how discouraging it is when the only two places where your potential experience can be realized is being taken up by a PLD tank, a thf puller, or a somewhat gimpy cannon pt that thinks they're l33t. Realize your limitations, and avoid those spots, so that people who can get the full utilization out of them can make use of them. I hate to see the only 2 merit spots filled, its a waste. If you are there with a subpar merit party, expect to hear from me if I happen to show up
Hint: If you think Birds can be good exp, then go there.

LOL. Elite cannon my ass. Everyone pay the same for the game, everyone can get to whatever camp you want. If this camp is better for you, then it's also better for others.

 

[Vilurum]

While Jamal's point is certainly arrogant, there *is* some merit to it. An okay-ish cannon would get comparable, if not better, exp/hr (with less risky mob spawns/mob specials) on Greater Colibris. A more balanced party shouldn't be in melee cannon spots at all, and should instead go SC + MB on trolls (where the free bonuses to damage are useful, but plain old melee DoT, while it works, doesn't shine as much due to trolls' high defense). And so on.

While it's not really reasonable to say "get out of this camp because I can make better use of it than you can", it's very reasonable to say "free up this camp for someone else as a side effect of going to a camp that's better suited for you anyway". The quality, jobs, and overall makeup of the party determine which particular merit camp you should go to.

I don't look down on people taking up a good spot for them, even if it's a better spot for me. Shit happens, they got there first, life is hard for me. If my party really blows them out of the water, it's easy enough to outpull them until they give up anyway. And if not, then it's my responsibility to move because I *wasn't* there first. But I'm sure as hell gonna look down on them (for their stupidity/ignorance about picking out an appropriate camp) if it's not even a good spot for them, and they're still taking it up.

(Tangential note: if there's another party at a camp you want, and they're killing everything anyway, and thus you *don't* blow them out of the water ... don't gimp both parties' exp trying that outpull-till-they-leave method. It only ever works if the first party there is pretty damn bad, or if they were gonna end soon anyway. Otherwise it's just a mark of your own stupidity that you'd rather go for uber-competed - and thus painfully slow - exp instead of move somewhere else.)

Back to the point, the fact of the matter is that mobs which are prime targets for elite cannons are often not the best choice *in the first place* for non-elite cannons or non-cannons. So whether you care about the elite cannon that wants your spot or not, why subject your party to a camp when you *yourself* could do better elsewhere?

EDIT: Case in point:

LOL. Elite cannon my ass. Everyone pay the same for the game, everyone can get to whatever camp you want. If this camp is better for you, then it's also better for others.

Your blanket statement is false. Try again with more understanding of what party setups are suited to what mobs.

 

[duncanrun]

If this camp is better for you, then it's also better for others.

Puddings are better for BLM mana burns than regular pts. Puddings are not better for regular pts than tons of other spots. Hence the camp is better for manaburn but not better for a regular pt. Your statment is false.

 

[Illyria]

I think this is why I have not looked for a merit party in a while. All my merits/xp on my 75 rdm and whm have come from having fun parties with friends. We either get everyone on the blm or rdm jobs and go blow shit up or we get on our other jobs and go beat up imps for fun.

While I understand there are people looking to get 25k/hour and that would be really freaking cool its not for everyone. I for one have never been in a true cannon party. I guess maybe because I don't want to or because learned a while back that being on rdm on colorbis where all I can do is refresh, haste, cure, repeat sucks ass.

I'll stick with my friends for now and when my SMN gets to 75 I'll make my own parties with my friends and continue to have a good time. Thats what I am here to do have fun. Sometimes I feel like people forget this is a game not a job where you have to do your very best at all times or you will fail... actually that is how some people view this and maybe its just the mentality we have built but I would rather party with friends and have fun where no one is perfect than get 25k/hour anyday.

/end rant

 

[jamal]

While Jamal's point is certainly arrogant, there *is* some merit to it. An okay-ish cannon would get comparable, if not better, exp/hr (with less risky mob spawns/mob specials) on Greater Colibris. A more balanced party shouldn't be in melee cannon spots at all, and should instead go SC + MB on trolls (where the free bonuses to damage are useful, but plain old melee DoT, while it works, doesn't shine as much due to trolls' high defense). And so on.

While it's not really reasonable to say "get out of this camp because I can make better use of it than you can", it's very reasonable to say "free up this camp for someone else as a side effect of going to a camp that's better suited for you anyway". The quality, jobs, and overall makeup of the party determine which particular merit camp you should go to.

I don't look down on people taking up a good spot for them, even if it's a better spot for me. Shit happens, they got there first, life is hard for me. If my party really blows them out of the water, it's easy enough to outpull them until they give up anyway. And if not, then it's my responsibility to move because I *wasn't* there first. But I'm sure as hell gonna look down on them (for their stupidity/ignorance about picking out an appropriate camp) if it's not even a good spot for them, and they're still taking it up.

(Tangential note: if there's another party at a camp you want, and they're killing everything anyway, and thus you *don't* blow them out of the water ... don't gimp both parties' exp trying that outpull-till-they-leave method. It only ever works if the first party there is pretty damn bad, or if they were gonna end soon anyway. Otherwise it's just a mark of your own stupidity that you'd rather go for uber-competed - and thus painfully slow - exp instead of move somewhere else.)

Back to the point, the fact of the matter is that mobs which are prime targets for elite cannons are often not the best choice *in the first place* for non-elite cannons or non-cannons. So whether you care about the elite cannon that wants your spot or not, why subject your party to a camp when you *yourself* could do better elsewhere?

EDIT: Case in point:



Your blanket statement is false. Try again with more understanding of what party setups are suited to what mobs.

Exactly. You can reach your exp potential in places other then the two points I specified. I can't. This has NOTHING to do with experiencing on Beast, although beasts might relate to the frustration. A beast can reach their max potential exp per hour in fewer places then a traditional party. If that place is overrun with parties who could be elsewhere, its frustrating I'm sure.

ToAU opened up a plethora of places where weak-ass parties can make a fairly high exp/hour. This is the exact same argument for Sky parties on Aura weapons camp...a gimp party would camp there because they could kill half the mobs before repops, and say it was the best place they could party, instead of entering a side deco camp with just enough mobs to keep themselves going. Meanwhile the great parties could only obtain half the exp/hour they would set out for because the other party is too stubborn to listen.
Same ballgame, different park now. The same people who argued that they had as much right to the best camps before are still arguing now. You won't find many people who have been in an elite cannon argue that the two prime experience spots should be taken by first come first serve...I sure as hell wouldn't ever bring my PLD there, because I have more respect then that for fellow gamers striving for the best experience their setup can obtain, and wouldn't want to waste a camp someone could be drilling 25k+ an hour on with my shabby 15k.

Edit: my "You"s in the first sentences weren't pointed towards you Vil.

 

[Elohim]

With respect to the OP, I don't think you should choose your first job based on what kind of merit party you can get a year after you start playing. The journey to 75 the first time around takes a long, long time and you should enjoy it as much as possible! I read some of the replies to my posts, and many of the people in the end game get nostalgic and warm feelings from reading about my lowbie adventures. Would they still feel that way if they had leveled a "merit job" they didn't enjoy or care about?

Last night I was doing the 3 mage gate, and when I stood on that red circle in the Horutoto Ruins and the magical glow surrounded me, it was so cool! If I had been there as MNK because I thought I could get better merit points in roaming bones parties next year at 75, I would not have had that experience.

In the end, I think you have to remember that this is a game. It's about having fun and making friends; if you're playing it to be "teh über" better-than-everyone-else on the server, you're probably going to fail because there's always someone with more time or more purchased fil or more hax than you. Fortunately for me, I'm quite enjoying both RDM and BLM, so I guess when I get there I'll have opportunities for manaburn and cannon. But even if my favorite class was pup I'd still level it to 75 first, because those first encounters and experiences are something special.

 

[Mai Ikari]

Couldn't agree with Vilurum (and Jamal) more... Thickets North is either wasted by a party that camps at the zoneline because they can't handle the mob repops, a party that tries to handle mob repops, or gets full use from one of Jamal's so-called Elite Cannons, especially when that party would get better exp/hr at another camp.


I know this sounds a bit wierd, but back on the topic of job experience... I couldn't disagree more, newbies should be told right from the start what combo is good and why. The reason? If you let them experiment, the vast majority of them will find their preferred job/subjob/gear combination, and stick to it, regardless of how bad it sucks. Like xxx/NIN with Sole Sushi and crap gear at level 30. It looks cool dual-wielding, it has high accuracy, and it's whatever their favorite job is. But it's absolutely useless (sushi at low levels is a waste of gil and damage, NIN sub when utsu gets little use and dual wield provides almost no bonus, crap gear is craaaaaappy), and despite all the proof you have otherwise, they'll stick to their guns and go MYTWELVENINTYFIVE!!!!!! If someone had told them, before they even unlocked NIN sub, that /WAR will beat the shit out of /NIN's damage, they might have stuck with /WAR. But instead, they're /NIN for no good reason. Or RDM/SMN, or MNK/THF, or some other stupid combo that they love.

 

[Tristam Green]

With respect to the OP, I don't think you should choose your first job based on what kind of merit party you can get a year after you start playing. The journey to 75 the first time around takes a long, long time and you should enjoy it as much as possible! I read some of the replies to my posts, and many of the people in the end game get nostalgic and warm feelings from reading about my lowbie adventures. Would they still feel that way if they had leveled a "merit job" they didn't enjoy or care about?

For some people, getting 1-75 only takes a couple months. For real. I don't know/want to know how, but it happens a lot.

Last night I was doing the 3 mage gate, and when I stood on that red circle in the Horutoto Ruins and the magical glow surrounded me, it was so cool! If I had been there as MNK because I thought I could get better merit points in roaming bones parties next year at 75, I would not have had that experience.

In the end, I think you have to remember that this is a game. It's about having fun and making friends; if you're playing it to be "teh über" better-than-everyone-else on the server, you're probably going to fail because there's always someone with more time or more purchased fil or more hax than you. Fortunately for me, I'm quite enjoying both RDM and BLM, so I guess when I get there I'll have opportunities for manaburn and cannon. But even if my favorite class was pup I'd still level it to 75 first, because those first encounters and experiences are something special.

For this statement you rock, and I'd rate you up again if I could.

 

[Mishaela]

Something else I forgot to say was that I've known a ton of people over the years that have done what the OP is suggesting and are still kicking themselves in the ass over it. PLD mains that thought it'd be a good idea to take BRD to 75 for the merit parties or all the ones that levelled BLM back when manaburn was the only way people were doing anything.

Now those players are asked to come to any type of event as jobs they don't want to play and they hate it. It's sad to see someone that has X job fully merited, geared to the gills, being told to come to something as BRD, that has 0 merits, nothing other than AH equipment, so they can be a Ballad whore. You need to think about this when levelling a job. If it's one of these jobs that are high in demand for everything then expect to be playing it alot. In short, do not take a job to 75 that you don't wish to play. If you join some type of endgame activity shell and tell them what jobs you have and you say, "my BRD is only for merits," they are probably going to laugh at you and tell you to keep looking for another shell. They expect you to be availible to use any of your jobs and most of them for some reason or another could care less about how poorly equipped/merited that bandwagon job is in comparison to your favorites.

I'd more or less say you're 95% right, only part I'd disagree with is some people making them go [x] job for the sake of needing that job...a lot of the time they have people go whichever job they've known them to be the longest since they assume that's the job they have the most experience with (which is generally why I wind up going as WHM to events in spite of having a near complete set of the best gear WAR can get and such)

 

[Vilurum]

Edit: my "You"s in the first sentences weren't pointed towards you Vil.

Never thought they were.

And just to reiterate my previous opinion (to the community at large, not to Jamal in particular, since we're clarifying these things XD), I *still* think that it boils down to playing what you enjoy, considering (not a mandate to level something, but definitely consider the possibility) more merit-friendly alternatives that you think you might enjoy, and either way accepting the consequences of your decisions.

And of course, my more recent point that people really need to learn to be honest about how good (and what style) their party is, what possible camps there *are*, and pick one appropriately. Not just go to Mamool Ja Staging Point or Nyzul Bhaflau, completely ignoring crowds, because those are the only things you've ever heard of.

 

[Celvantes]

I honestly hope that the new expansion offers an area that makes the "standard" party a good thing again. Nothing against the TP burns - I think it's awesome that jobs who formerly were homeless (WAR or MNK in a skillchain?) found not only a place to level, but a place to level and make more exp than ever precedented in this game.

However, in a burn party, there is no hate control other than making sure the DD/NINs equally share hate so that no one has to drop to using ichi. There is no strategy other than gearing up to spam as many Asuran Fists/Rampages as possible in a given amoutn of time and keeping the right songs on. Don't get me wrong, you can't top 30k or whatever you guys can make/hour, but it's nothing like the team-based exp I remember from when I was "growing up" in this game.

I miss skillchains. I miss working to get your timing just right to see that animation go off, then seeing huge numbers behind a nice pretty BLM spell (or spells).

As much as it was a pain keeping just the right amount of hate control so that someone could turn the mob (without losing it beforehand), I miss SATA.

There used to be a strategy and flow to exp... each mob, each fight was a little different. Now the term used for Rampagespam is exactly fitting for the party as a whole - spam. I'm guilty just as much as the next guy - I've done THF THF PLD RNG BRD RDM in Nyzul Isle to pretty much the same effect. The 1st Colibri was no different than the 2000th Colibri, but now I'm watching TV or what have you while exping - no longer enjoying the game for the game itself because it requires absolutely no brainpower (other than making sure I stay in position for the THFs and max out my hate routine).

I really hope Wings of the Goddess introduces camps with mobs who are resistant to regular damage but who grant huge damage bonuses to skillchains and even bigger ones to magic bursts. In this "return to Vana'diel's past," give us back the game that we started with.

 

[Mai Ikari]

Absolutely agree with you Celv... I'm sure SE has some way to make a Qutrub-like mob that takes triple damage from skillchains specifically, with as low a resist rate as possible (which is what killed skillchains int he first place). Not as much HP as a Qutrub, but more than normal. Hell, add in some status to the mob after SC where he takes double damage from magic for a few seconds so that the MB damage -means- something.

Good number of camps with those mobs, and suddenly BLM have a way to get exp outside of manaburn, and the non-NIN/MNK/WAR jobs an alternative to Greater Colibri.

 

[Mistaya]

And of course, my more recent point that people really need to learn to be honest about how good (and what style) their party is, what possible camps there *are*, and pick one appropriately. Not just go to Mamool Ja Staging Point or Nyzul Bhaflau, completely ignoring crowds, because those are the only things you've ever heard of.

I've been out at Nyzul Bhaflau a lot recently but there was never more than 2 parties (neither cannon) at a time, which the camp supported easily. We weren't making 20k an hour but the exp wasn't bad (72-74ish level up parties.)

Are you saying a party shouldn't go to a spot just because sometime in the next couple hours some complete strangers might maybe want to kill those mobs faster than you can? I respect my fellow players but that's taking it a little far...