si se puede si se puede

[Sneakypants]

NO rights? No.
There are basic human rights.

Rights as pertaining to the rights and liberties that legal citizens are granted? No. If there is nothing that separates illegal from legal, why all the debate? There is a very real division based on legal versus illegal. Illegals have rights, as people...They do not have the rights of a U.S. citizen no matter how much they whine and complain that they'd like those rights to fall in their lap.

Obviously something must be done. You know this government isn't going to throw them all out. They are too weak to do the right thing.
I go back to what I've said in previous threads...Give them a chance to come clean and make a legal transition, but that's a choice opportunity given to them, and if they don't take it then the gloves can come off.

 

[Sculli]

In all honesty, it's just not practial to throw 12 million illegals out. Sure, some of them just bum around the ghetto, but many have jobs, homes, other property they own, kids who go to school and may not even speak the native language anymore, etc. Plus, if the kids was born here, then it is a U.S. citizen, so what's the solution, throw the parents out and let the kid stay?

I am all for cleaning the illegal mess up, and I am for tighter border patrols, punishing companies that employ illegals, etc, but sending 12M back to somewhere, while legally right and perhaps morally right, is just not practial.

 

[Sneakypants]

Obviously something must be done. You know this government isn't going to throw them all out. They are too weak to do the right thing.

Totally agree Sculli.

In all honesty, it's just not practial to throw 12 million illegals out.

What bothers me is that the lack of practical ways to dismiss them is ultimately the way they will obtain their stay, even if they remain illegal.
I really hope that those who stay at least become a citizen through some sort of process rather than follow suit just because they've already gotten away with things...Enforcement is needed to provide and example of what happens when you break the law. It won't deter everyone, but it will deter quite a few, especially if we are serious about enforcement. Since we're not serious about enforcement, it's no surprise that this country has accumulated this much baggage.

The fact that businesses allowed MILLIONS upon millions of illegal workers into the system, is another issue. It's like the illegals have made it past every checkpoint, virtually problem free.

The government allowed all this to happen. They allowed it.

 

[meeze]

Beeeeeaners...like to eat...beans

Yup...also Mexican-Americans like education, so they go to night class and take spanish and get a "B"

 

[Eulore]

ya, everyone of our ancestors immigrated here, the indians didn't have laws so we weren't illegal. Now we made laws so everyone gtfo.

This has been beaten to death, but when mexicans come and rape/kill/enslave all of america I'll say this arguement will be fair game.

Illegals need to gtfo.

 

[Neyla]

Yup...also Mexican-Americans like education, so they go to night class and take spanish and get a "B"

Oh man, I had that playing in my head all yesterday morning when I was putting pages of the newspaper together and ran a story about the protests on one of them.

 

[Songi_]

It would be nice if we could make the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. It would also be nice if legal immigrants respected the laws of their own country and did not protest in support of the illegal immigrants. I certainly understand the freedom of opinion, but the law is the law, lobby congress if you don't like it.

Frankly I don't know what the goal of these protests is, other than to create a feeling of general hopelessness and to suggest that the only solution is a Reagan-style amnesty, which we all know isn't going to happen. Can we deport 12M illegals? Ha. Funny. We need to do something else about it, and some type of gradual transition program seems like the most plausible solution, eventually ending in full citizenship, but in the meantime, denying certain government services to these illegals (the ones with falsified social security cards, documents, etc). This will get them paying taxes, helping society, and not straining a country that is already $8 trillion in debt. It'll also help us ID who exactly is here.

It doesn't matter, in a week this will all die down and no one will pay any attention. Welcome to America, land of bureaucracy.

 

[Shaunessy]

Really though, is 12 million people not buying anything for 1 day gonna make that much of a difference on our economy? I don't think so. Hell I go days without buying stuff. Mayday is a joke and all the punks that protest on that day are a joke too. So some family in the hills has to do their own laundry or cut their own grass for one day. I would love to see them protest for a month, then when their jobs are gone and their money is gone, what are they gonna do? Seriously, it's the dumbest protest ever. So there is noone to hand out mints in the shitter of the strip club for a day, I can live with that.

 

[smalls]

Remeber don't buy anything for the day.

half of them cant afford to buy anything anyway.

 

[meeze]

This will get them paying taxes, helping society, and not straining a country that is already $8 trillion in debt.

The majority of non-agricultural workers do pay taxes, and never pull any out. They use fake SSI numbers to get jobs, and the way the tax system works at their pay level, they are usually scheduled to recieve 30-50% of that money back. That money is never seen by them because they don't file taxes for fear of being found, so the IRS has a shitload of money from these people, wonder whose pocket that is ending up in.

Edit:adding info.

I was talking to a guy who is about 50, who said before the border started getting cracked down the majority of mexicans would come for the harvest season and go home after. When the US started to crack down on the border is when they started looking for permanent housing in the US as well as moving their whole family accross the border. It was no longer a viable solution to return every year, as the treck back accross the border was getting harder and harder. Kind of ironic that the cracking down on the border is what has caused on the increase of permanent illegal residency.

 

[Shaunessy]

The majority of non-agricultural workers do pay taxes, and never pull any out. They use fake SSI numbers to get jobs, and the way the tax system works at their pay level, they are usually scheduled to recieve 30-50% of that money back. That money is never seen by them because they don't file taxes for fear of being found, so the IRS has a shitload of money from these people, wonder whose pocket that is ending up in.

Edit:adding info.

I was talking to a guy who is about 50, who said before the border started getting cracked down the majority of mexicans would come for the harvest season and go home after. When the US started to crack down on the border is when they started looking for permanent housing in the US as well as moving their whole family accross the border. It was no longer a viable solution to return every year, as the treck back accross the border was getting harder and harder. Kind of ironic that the cracking down on the border is what has caused on the increase of permanent illegal residency.

Yeah that's a funny situation. I wonder how brainwashed the people that do border securiy are though. Hell if I saw a bunch of mexicans going back to mexico I probably would give them some water and tell them good luck. No use stopping them from leaving, unless we drop them off at Panama, then that would be pretty funny.

 

[Bigboy]

We're abandoned.

Declaration of Independance was never a set of laws, or anything close to it... Perhaps you're thinking of the bill of rights? I know they covered this about 20 times throughout my education before collage.

 

[resipsa]

Declaration of Independance was never a set of laws, or anything close to it... Perhaps you're thinking of the bill of rights? I know they covered this about 20 times throughout my education before collage.

No. I know the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. I never said the Declaration of Independence is a set of laws. I said that the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution share the same theoretical basis. Both were heavily influenced by John Locke's Second Treatise on Government.

 

[Sneakypants]

so the IRS has a shitload of money from these people, wonder whose pocket that is ending up in.

Exactly. It is being allowed to happen. If you have to ask "why", the answer is money.

 

[Answa~]

How are we treating the immigrants unjustly Answa? They have no rights here, they get sent home. If we were killing, beating, and raping them, then I would agree. I don't see how we could treat them more humanly while not throwing out our entire legal system.

(I can read Spanish better than I can write it).

Obviously you can read it better than write it, but you still read it incorrectly.

Late answer, but it's finals week next week... Anyways, I never said you're treating them unjustly. I said I felt it was unjust what you were thinking of doing to them. Booting them out.

I acknowledge everything you guys say, I understand it. The illegals broke the law, as redundant as that sounds, but they're there now. They're being exploited, that's unjust, but they still take it, they try to make a living for themselves and their families.

They hide to get in not because they think it's wrong, but because they know it's illegal. If you knew that you'd get sent back where you came from when you're trying to get somewhere else if you're seen, would you let yourself be seen? Obviously not.

I have nothing against increasing border patrol, it's your country, you do whatever the hell you want with it. What I do have a problem with is sending all the illegals back. It's simply inhumane. Now, the people that do stir up trouble, that don't try to make a better living for themselves, the ones that end up in gangs, in trouble, in jail, should naturally just be sent back to where they came from. Simple.


I also find it funny how people can thread-hijack so easily on something most people agree on and nobody ever calls them out for it. But when one person has one different opinion on one thing, people simply plow onto him and call him a spoil-sport (in more obscene words, of course) and just close off all chances of communicating.

Another for Rones:

Presiento una voz rondante
que a mis oídos busca
y en mis noches desoladas
llega a convencerme del venir.

Cruzo el tiempo al camino,
a través de la verdad.
Me guío en todo hacia nada
que me pueda llevar.

Tu cerebro ya ha crecido suficiente, ahora deja que tu corazón crezca. Me entristece pensar que haya alguien tan frío en este mundo que a su vez sea tan inteligente. Esto es sin conocerte realmente, porque nunca he tenido la oportunidad, pero nunca me has enseñado lo contrario.

 

[Kotsu]

"If a tree falls in the woods and no one's around, does it make a sound?"

Well, let's try to not be retarded. "If a tree falls and hits someone in the middle of town square and there's the main populace of the town there, does anyone notice?"

Seriously, how retarded is it that so many illegal immigrants protested in one spot. Deport their asses, because my tax money should never benefit them. My tax money should not protect them, save them, feed them, or heal them. Why? Because they shouldn't be here. I pay way too much on taxes to give a damn about the lower-contributors of society who, mind you, DON'T pay taxes and only absorb tax money because they don't have social security numbers to be "legally" employed. Here's an idea: If we killed every illegal immigrant on sight at the border, would they continue to try to get in? If so, then they're willingly taking their lives at risk. In all due honesty though, if you're not in the country legally you are a felon. Felons should not have their hands held, and prance around the meadows of jail freely given: free shelter, clothing, food, exercise and jobs. They should be severely beaten and tortured. Possibly catapolted off of cliffs into spikey revines. And if they survive the catapolt then they deserve to be free. I hate people uneccessarily using my tax money. >.>;; I'd have more money if they didn't exist, were never here, or I was permitted free reign of destruction upon their flesh and possibly their souls.

 

[Tymon]

There's 12 million illegals in this country. Maybe 10% of them have a job, support their families, and are nice people. These people probably plan to become a citizen. I have nothing against these people at all.

The other 90% come from their own country to live on OUR welfare, OUR taxes, do nothing to help themselves except for mooch off of OUR money, and now they say WE owe them something? Yeah right.

This is like if you own a house with a large yard. One day a squatter comes and pitches his tent in a portion of your yard. You feed them and provide them with clothes and the necessities. One day they come to your door and say that they now own your yard, and to stay off of "their" property. Of course they still want you to give them food and clothing. Rediculous, right? Yep.

 

[Mokk]

There's 12 million illegals in this country. Maybe 10% of them have a job, support their families, and are nice people. These people probably plan to become a citizen. I have nothing against these people at all.

The other 90% come from their own country to live on OUR welfare, OUR taxes, do nothing to help themselves except for mooch off of OUR money, and now they say WE owe them something? Yeah right.

This is like if you own a house with a large yard. One day a squatter comes and pitches his tent in a portion of your yard. You feed them and provide them with clothes and the necessities. One day they come to your door and say that they now own your yard, and to stay off of "their" property. Of course they still want you to give them food and clothing. Rediculous, right? Yep.

You forgot the part where they take money out of your wallet to send back to their economicly failing country that supports the breaking of the laws of your country. Laws which for better or worse still manage to keep your country prosperous.

I love that mexico basicly oks running to america to fund it's terrible economic situation and horrible leadership meanwhile it's immigration policy is one of rape, torture, murder, kidnapping, etc. Think they're desperate, imagine the people who'd risk their lives to be an illegal immigrant to mexico because their life sucks so bad wherever the hell they were.

I figure were we to go the way of mexico people'd stay where the hell they are unless they feel the need to do things legally. But....... Our current administration would love to just rip the floodgates open, so no chance on that shit happening anytime soon.

Edit: Anyone else find it odd the OP:

A. only has the OP as his only post
B. Can't be bothered to defend the subject of ingratefull assbags protesting and boycotting our immigration policy which is crap and gives them the ability to ... protest and boycott even though the illegals don't have the right to do so on this soil.

La migra should've taken a queue and started checking for citizenship at these "protests" and i quote that because it was just an excuse to take a day off of work

Must be nice to live in a world where you can just tell your boss you wont be in today so you can go stand around in a park and bitch about an immigration policy that allows you to hold a job after telling your boss you wont be in because immigration policy sucks so terribly.

In my world we get fired for that shit, welcome to america.

 

[Rones]

Anyways, I never said you're treating them unjustly. I said I felt it was unjust what you were thinking of doing to them. Booting them out.

Ah, that's kind of what I was getting at when I said, "They have no rights here, they get sent home." I was asking what is unjust about the idea of sending all of them home.

They hide to get in not because they think it's wrong, but because they know it's illegal. If you knew that you'd get sent back where you came from when you're trying to get somewhere else if you're seen, would you let yourself be seen? Obviously not.

We realize that. It is perfectly rational and I would expect nothing else. We (legal Americans) are actually kind of insulted that some broke that rule and flaunted being illegeal in these protests. However, just because we expect them to hide it, doesn't mean we accept them.

What I do have a problem with is sending all the illegals back. It's simply inhumane.

I see it as inhumane to all the legal citizens to allow them to stay. If you do not deport or punish them in anyway, there is no way to discourage the behavior. Not only must we try to keep illegeals out, but we must move out those who slip through. If we allow them to stay, more will come (obviously there will always be some, but we can reduce how many come).

To allow those that snuck in to live freely like regular citizens just encourages the behavior. Encouraging the behavior means more come. More coming means worse conditions for legeal citizens which is inhumane to them.
-----------------

I have trouble translating poetry that you had in your first two paragraphs. Hard to pick out the meaning from the words I recognize. Same problem that likely happens with poetry in any language. What is rondante? I couldn't find that in my dictionary.

Yeah, you are right. I am cold and rational much of the time. Yet, I do it in a way that follows my system of morality. Thus, I do not feel it is wrong. I don't see my heart as in need of growing. Emotions should not be allowed you affect your decisions. This a basic foundation of stoicism that I try to follow. You can have emotions without letting them bias your decisions in life. Keep in mind my reading ability of Spanish is about that of a 2nd grader, so if I misread something I aplogize.

 

[Answa~]

You understood it pretty well, Rones. Rondante is something like fleeting, as in it keeps coming and going...

The thing about "giving the ones that are already there citizenship would only encourage more to come" is an exhausted excuse. I never condoned blindly giving citizenship. If they want citizenship, they should be able to try, and not just be scorned at because they came here illegally. Nobody knows their individual stories. They have to earn it, though.

If border patrol is enforced, then having given the ones already inside leverage to gain citizenship should not be a problem if the enforcing is done right.