Silly Putty, and the Off Hand.

Phraust

Phraust

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So I finally got Chief Sergeant rank and got the weapon I wnted really bad out of spite; for it is not as useful for my intended purposes, thanks in pert to the 2h update.

So I went to merit, and decided to try out my new toy: Perdu Hanger.

Goofing off complaining that my Vorpal Blades were doing as much as my rampages. Something wasn't right... My rampages have pretty much always left something to be desired, but this was a little odd.

The situation was basically this. Get in a merit, swap weaons to try it out. Then swap back, and the person parsing asked for me to swap back to Sword/Ridill a bit, and I did. Aparenly I was getting a 3%-5% increase in damage delt per the group by using the Sword... Swapped back, and lost 3%-5% damage compared to the other people in the group.

So I pop into another merit pt, and tested stuff, low and behold, I could see more damage being done. So download a parser (Hadn't had one in a while since I got a new computer) and tested shit out...

Silly Putty:

Silly Putty was "invented" on accident...

So after disscussions with quite a few people aparently this is what's happening:

The Off Hand:

So in multi-hit weponskills like Blade Jin for instance, if you use the same species of weapon, the Multi-hit weaponskill will basically leave the modifiers active for the entire attack round, the off hand hit is included into the weapon skill. I always just assumed this was indicative of Blade Jin, and never really thought about it.

However: if you use Axe/Axe you will fire off a 5 hit rampage, and your off hand swing will include the same 30% Str mod, and added to the weapon skill as a 6th hit.

So for as Axe/Ridill war, I was always baffled as to why an Axe/Axe war would do more damage on thier Rampages than me, but never really thought about it, i just assumed it was because they had a 5 str from woddy, or +30 attack from Jugg. I had heard about the off hand being included, but never gave it much thought.

On to Vorpal Blade:
In the parties I was in, my vorpal Blades were doing about 10% more damage on average as compared to my rampages, with a higher frequency.

Axe/Axe would do Rampages that were typically 10% more than my Sword/Ridill Vorpals, which in turn do more than my Axe/Ridill Rampages.

So the only damage I was actually getting was on the decreased delay from using a faster weapon.

So now the questions are:

Could another non-ridill war viably use a Sword/Sword Combo reliably? Like a Company Sword/Perdu Hanger? Or some sword and Joyuse?

Would I benefit from using a Ridill/Joyuse?
Would I benefit from using a Company Sword over the Hanger?

Was talking to Jamal and he mentioned something about "Weapon Ranking" and how Ridill/Joyuse would be easily outparsed by Perdu/Ridill due to the Perdu's Weapon rank. I do not understand this, and only seen it in the equations, but it has never been explained to me.

Sword has always kinda been the laughable weapon, but this kinda changes things...

Any additions? Discussions?
 
As I mentioned in our discussion too, this is why I wanted the hangar. DMG 46 is the lowest of the top-tier 1 hand weapons, I'd dig up formulas but they're not the easiest to comprehend, just use this number as a basis whenever considering main-hand weapons. If you main-hand with a weapon less than said value, you will show an immense drop-off in ws damage. This is why unless you're eating meat which will jump your dmg immensely (which is why I did it in sky), Ridill/Joyeuse isn't the best combo for meriting.
To be noted that Juggernaut is also 46 dmg, which is why this axe is head and shoulders above the rest for Ridill, giving the +30 attack as well as maintaining top-tier weapon rank.
The differences between Company Sword and a 46dmg sword wouldn't be that vast I would imagine, but I can't say that for sure. Then again, before the 2-hand update my highest WS of any type on HNM was a 2083 Savage Blade on Behemoth...
5 bucks if you can guess the weapon I was main-handing...
 
Serious? I thought it was 46...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, very interesting now
 
jamal said:
Serious? I thought it was 46...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, very interesting now
Click to expand...

In a party of six, it'd be 52, yeah. Its damage increases with members in the party. Adversely, Mensur Epee is the reverse of that, gaining damage for each member not in party.
 
jamal said:
Serious? I thought it was 46...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, very interesting now
Click to expand...

Maybe different weapons have different ranks.

I can feed you the parses, but I really wanted to make a set of Consistant parties that gave an hour per weapon where nothings changing except the weapon.

My last party was goign to do that, but mid way through another party decided to move in on us and I couldn't get enough data, our available mobs were cut in half. So even though we had an hour, we had half the kills...

Think you can set something up for tues or thurs?

I do however hate to use my war around jamal because it's completely unmerited...
 
metachronism said:
The only benefit of wearing str outside of WS is for the weapon rank-based damage modifier (rank = floor(dmg/9)). And even then, the effect is rather marginal, because if you're wearing enough STR to see a visible difference, you probably don't have enough atk to be high enough of the atk/def curve to be able to see it (unless you're just brutalizing tw mobs).
Click to expand...

This is what I was looking for. Meta, although I disagree with alot of what he says, usually points to good numbers. I did find conclusive proof on this, but I no longer have the links.
45 would be the next tier dmg weapon, 52 would still be included. So if Hangar is 44, it sill would be one tier below.

Edit:
Phraust said:
Maybe different weapons have different ranks.

I can feed you the parses, but I really wanted to make a set of Consistant parties that gave an hour per weapon where nothings changing except the weapon.

My last party was goign to do that, but mid way through another party decided to move in on us and I couldn't get enough data, our available mobs were cut in half. So even though we had an hour, we had half the kills...

Think you can set something up for tues or thurs?

I do however hate to use my war around jamal because it's completely unmerited...
Click to expand...

Lol, what do you use your merits on? No GK merits, completely unmerited war...If you say thief I'm gonna have a hissy fit.

Second edit:
http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/dmgcalc.htm
 
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More Research:
Nice "Formula" is still unknown. However, this rule can be applied to get the fSTR2 value :
ΔSTR Range fSTR2 value
12 ~ ... (ΔSTR + 4 ) / 2
6 ~ 11 (ΔSTR + 6 ) / 2
1 ~ 5 (ΔSTR + 7 ) / 2
2 ~ 0 (ΔSTR + 8 ) / 2
7 ~ -3 (ΔSTR + 9 ) / 2
-15 ~ -8 (ΔSTR + 10 ) / 2
-21 ~ -16 (ΔSTR + 12 ) / 2
... ~ -22 (ΔSTR + 13 ) / 2

ΔSTR = Your STR - Mobs Vit
If you can give your Melee STR and we find out the mobs average VIT of what you were fighting we can figure out your fSTR2. Assuming this is consistant with what you would use on Maneater, I bet its a reasonably similar number.
Melee base dmg calculation = Weapon DMG + fSTR2
Comparing these in a ratio with weapon DPS can give us a general idea of how your dmg should be affected before accuracy/attack are brought into the equation (which should be relatively equal).
 
My Str 75 + 57 during weaponskill.

In regular TP gear I believe my Str is 22.

that's using Sushi, mainly because I hate missing, adn after minimal testign with meat, I find Sushi to be better overall.

I do have the following merits that are of interest for war:
Spell Interupt: 4/4
Critical Hit Rate: 4/4
Sword: 8/8
Axe: 1/0
Str: 3/5 (it might be 4/5)
 
Phraust said:
My Str 75 + 57 during weaponskill.

In regular TP gear I believe my Str is 22.

that's using Sushi, mainly because I hate missing, adn after minimal testign with meat, I find Sushi to be better overall.

I do have the following merits that are of interest for war:
Spell Interupt: 4/4
Critical Hit Rate: 4/4
Sword: 8/8
Axe: 1/0
Str: 3/5 (it might be 4/5)
Click to expand...

What mobs were you fighting? And I can't eat meat outside of sky :/
 
The information I could dig for listed 3 of the mamools all having 77 VIT for the entire level range, so that seems like a safe number to assume.

So, to calculate your fSTR:

ΔSTR= (75+22)-77 = 20

fSTR(2)=(12+4)/2 = 8

Base Damage of Maneater = 49+8 = 57
Base Damage of Perdu = 44+8 = 52

The final calculation in melee hits is the relation of DEF/ATT which for you would be near similar due to your merits. Because of this we'll keep the raw Base dmg of the weapons as the sole comparison point.

DPS of the weapons:
Perdu - 10.13
Maneater - 9.35

So first Maneater:

Jamal's raw damage (patent pending) = 57x9.35 = 532.95

Perdu:

Jamal's raw damage (patent pending) = 52X10.13 = 526.76

So for melee you're actually better off using the maneater over the perdu.

WS base damage formula (From here on Pxxx will be for perdu, Mxxx will be maneater:
Base Damage = floor( (D + fSTR(2) + WSC) x fTP)

Pfloor = 44/9 = Rank 4
Mfloor = 49/9 = Rank 5

Using the numbers from above, we can update formulas:
Pbasedmg: 4(52+WSC)xfTP)
Mbasedmg: 5(57+WSC)xfTP)

WSC is the secondary ws attribute modifier, in this case .25 STR for both weapons
WSC=.25(75+52)=31.75

Formulas updated to include:
Pbasedmg:4(83.75xfTP)
Mbasedmg:5(88.75xfTP)

fTP is the secondary dmg modifier...
http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/wsclist.htm for more information

Vorpal Blade ftp: 1.0 for all 4 hits. (5 since dual weilding swords)
Rampage ftp: .5 for first hit, 1.0 for remaining 4.

Pbasedmg:4(83.75) = 335
Mbasedmg first hit: 5(44.375) = 221.875
Mbasedmg remaining: 5(88.75) = 443.75

Total WS Base dmg:
P: 5(335) = 1675
M: 221.875 + 4(443.75) = 1996.875

The next step I guess (My brain hurts) is to find out the time needed to obtain 100tp using tp/hit.
It must be much better than axe, because axe has one both the base melee damage with modifiers as well as base ws damage D:
 
Axes, Swords and Knives is on Modern Marvels as we (figuratively) speak. Within the TV all your questions will be answered.
 
But here's the issue:

Vorpal Blade was out damaging Rampage.

Vorpals with no food on Colibris, ironically the most solid data I got unmarred by Support jobs, were doign 664, My Rampages were doing 616. At thSouth Camp they were doing a little better, but I was seeign a consistant trend towards my Vorpals being roughly 10% stronger than my Rampages.

I KNOW this math doesn't add up or make sense. Either something was changed with the 2h Break & Fix, or there's errors in the equations, since they are all extrapolated and theorized.

The DPS on the weapons are off too, you need to take the DPS while the latents are active; The Perdu is 11.57 iirc, and the Maneater is 10.5.

Delays:
Perdu: 225 (6.1 TP)
Ridill: 236 (6.3 TP)
Maneater: 276 (7.3 TP)

Combined:
Pru/Rid: 461 (369 after DW & Suppa)
Man/Rid: 512 (410 after DW & Suppa)

Diff: 10%

If one considers basically I get 10% more hits you could:

100 on Perdu = 90 hits on Maneater.
 
Phraust said:
But here's the issue:

Vorpal Blade was out damaging Rampage.

Vorpals with no food on Colibris, ironically the most solid data I got unmarred by Support jobs, were doign 664, My Rampages were doing 616. At thSouth Camp they were doing a little better, but I was seeign a consistant trend towards my Vorpals being roughly 10% stronger than my Rampages.
Click to expand...

Perdu is a scimitar, is that considered piercing?
That's why Mamools is usually the best judge.

And if you were using the South thix camp, there's plenty of Puks in there as well, which could make up the difference.
 
jamal said:
Perdu is a scimitar, is that considered piercing?
That's why Mamools is usually the best judge.

And if you were using the South thix camp, there's plenty of Puks in there as well, which could make up the difference.
Click to expand...

Slashing.
Only thing that's Piercing is Daggers, Spears, Ranged and Joy.
 
Skaw said:
I highly doubt it's only for the first hit. I've had some epic blunderous Rampages.
Click to expand...

I'm just taking the sites information that I linked too. It is theorized, and I would guess its lower as well. I've always heard that the first two hits in rampage give you the biggest tp return, so it would make sense for those two hits to have similar pdifs.

My bad on the active latency too, I was cramming numbers while waiting for a conference call, and realized I was going to be late if I didn't hurry up lol.

I'm speculating Critical hits making part of the difference up. You'd need two completely separate saved parses to compare those though. The higher the weapon, the more chance of hitting pdif cap, although I doubt you would do that with maneater. I can check the site later, it also had adjusted caps for Critical hits
 
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