SMN best sub for whm?

Geneviene

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Geneviene
OK so this has been debated for centuries im sure ^^. But is smn the best sub for whm? As I ponder it in my taru brain it seens to be. With all the job abilities smn has. So I want opinions peeps! And also please include a little snibbit of what lvl you think is best to start at.
Oh btw
I never use my Blm abilities in party other then warp lol
 
As whm/smn you'll have max MP boost and auto-refresh (at level 50). Aerial armor and whispering wind from garuda, shining ruby from carbuncle, frost armor from shiva, and rolling thunder from ramuh. Most whm/smn don't use blood pacts however, general waste of MP for the whm. In downtime they sometimes use aerial armor or shining ruby, just depends.

As whm/blm you get... magic attack bonus (>_>), warp, escape, elemental seal. Plus you get nuke spells and elemental enfeebles (that likely won't stick unless you use elemental seal). Basically /blm is used for convenience ie, warp. But escape can come in handy in sticky situations if no actual blm is available or another mage that is /blm.

Really, its just a matter of player preference. I personally will be whm/smn for xp situations ^^
 
This is going to become a pretty large discussion I imagine. Here is a quick run down from Icemage on ffxionline.com:
Icemage said:
From 1-29: Doesn't matter, you can sub anything you please, hardly anyone will care (though truly bizarre choices like WHM/DRG might get you some raised eyebrows)

30-39: /RDM, /BRD, /BLM are the most decent choices. /SMN is semi-common, but in reality is a terrible subjob at this level.

40-49: /BLM is hands down the best choice here. /RDM still ok, but weaker in comparison to /BLM. /BRD also ok too, but again, not as strong in comparison. /SMN still just as common, and still just as sucky as in the previous level range.

50-63: /BRD, /BLM, /SMN are all good for various reasons. /RDM not a strong contender in this level range.

64+: /BRD, /BLM, /SMN, /RDM all valid choices.

From my expereince, conserve mp alone outperforms autorefresh from smn sub. This is even more true as you get farther past 50 and cast more/bigger spells. Auto refresh remains the same, but conserve mp saves percents of spells which continues to grow as you cast more mp intensive spells.

Additional blm points:
Sleep and Sleepga are huge helps for the times when the rdm or brd dc, and you need an extra sleep around. More sleeps never hurts.
Escape is one of my favorite spells. It is such a life saver since most exp zones are in doors.
Elemental seal, good for combination with a banish3 or sleep.
Magic attack bonus from blm sub helps when you mb on light chains later.

Another sub most don't consider is brd. Not only do you get just as much mp regeneration from this as you do smn sub, but you also get it for the rest of your party. So instead of just 1 mp every 3 sec, its 3-4 mp spread over all your mp users. You may also use this to give your melees sword madrigal for +15 accu. Plus, with brd sub you can finale (dispel) with moderate realiability despite having limited singing skill. Don't expect to use the brd enfeebles or sleeps though. However, don't use this if you have a main brd already. Best with whm, blm, rdm backline.

Thus the only advantage smn holds is extra mp, but as most experienced whms can tell you, max mp doesn't mean much. I never touch the bottom 300 of my mp, I could have an extra 500 there and I wouldn't use it or need it. Avatar abilities are wastes of mp usually. Even blinkga, it is usually more mp efficient to throw a cure 4 or curaga.

My rating for subs is brd>blm>smn>rdm depending on party setup.
 
/SMN offers the most mp and auto-refresh at 50, but it doesn't offer much more than that. You can get aerial armor, but that might not be an effective use of mp for certain situations.

with /BLM, you get the second highest mp, but you also get warp at 34 and escape at 58. I've needed escape before for parties or hnm hunts or something, so it's definitely worth having at times.

/BRD isn't all that bad a sub for post-50 as well. As long as you don't have a bard in your party, /BRD gets you ballad 1 on top refresh. Sure you lose some mp, but with 4 mp/tick, you might not need it.

I can't see much reason to use /RDM unless you already have it leveled, but not any of the other subs. You get the least mp, and there's not spells worth using that you wouldn't already get on whm a lot earlier.

It all comes down to a matter of personal preference. It's certainly worth having multiple subs leveled. I'm currently leveling my smn up so that I'll have more mp on whm for hnm's and such.
 
It's kinda funny now reading this, I NEVER see WHM/BRD combo. Every WHM I've pt'd with has subbed BLM or RDM, and a few have /SMN but it's also rare. I think that if I get to leveling WHM for any reason, I'll take up /BRD to see how much it helps out. In certain situations would a RDM/BRD be a good idea? Double refresh from one party member? Sure they lose a little in the enfeebling magic section but hey, 4 mp/tick can help out everyone with MP.
 
Tauro, for a Galka like yourself, you might want to go with a mage sub just for the extra MP. So no WHM/BRD for you, unless you level another character for it (Taru would be best...)

Anyway, I'd just like to know why everyone says to not use BRD sub when you've got a BRD main in the party. Ballad 1 from both won't stack, but if you use different songs than the BRD main, everyone can have up to 3 songs at once...
 
I went WHM/BRD for several levels, it was especially useful for when we couldn't find any rdm's or brd's. Me subbing bard was also when I first learned that Magic Finale could actually be resisted.

The reason why I subbed bard was to get ballad, which wouldn't give anything with having a bard int he party. I'd toss on a buff if there wasn't any healing to do, but for the most part I just wanted ballad. You can sub bard while there is a bard in the party, you just don't get as much out of it.
 
It's kinda funny now reading this, I NEVER see WHM/BRD combo
I use it on occasion. It is somewhat specialized not working in every party in addition to most people just not being familiar with it.
would a RDM/BRD be a good idea?
This depends largely on your race. Brd's extra ballad mp goes to waste if losing a mage sub job puts you too far away from a good convert ratio. However, if you can maintain a good mp ratio, then brd makes a good sub for rdms who don't nuke much.
I'd just like to know why everyone says to not use BRD sub when you've got a BRD main in the party
Benefit is mostly nullified. Mages get ballad 1 and 2, not much they need beyond that. Melees will already have blade madrigal for +29 accu and minuet 4, so +15 from your sword madrigal won't likely be needed. At that point you still get some slight benefit from brd, but blm and smn outperform it.
 
With both Fast Cast and Dispel, I think Red Mage is the best sub job for White Mage. Spells from a Black Mage sub are by and large useless. Warp shouldn't even count, since it has no bearing on gaining exp - unless warping out of a bad party to get a good one counts as gaining more exp. Escape? If you find yourself praising your blm sub too often because of Escape, there are bigger issues than your choice of sub. I never choose a subjob based on what it can do if your party stinks. I try to figure out what one makes a good party better. The parties that have you smiling because you have warp and escape shouldn't weigh too heavily on your decision.

Avatars from a Summoner sub are also pretty much useless, but at least they do more than stave off disasters that shouldn't happen often to begin with. Both Blm and Summoner offer traits designed to offer mp endurance. From what I understand, MP Regen is most useful for players that don't cast a lot of spells, because MP Regen has time to replenish your casting costs whereas Conserve MP wouldn't kick in every time. For the mage who casts spells frequently, and even moreso if the spells are costly, Conserve MP is the way to go.

I don't know about subbing bard, because I'm one of the many who never tried it, never even knew it was a possibility that wouldn't get me made fun of. In the end, I think subbing Red Mage offers the most to a White Mage. Fast Cast, Dispel, some more enfeebles - you still get sleep I believe, as you would subbing blm. You lose a bit of mp, which most people have said you never get to the bottom of your max mp anyway, so why care? You get the capability to get cures out faster in an emergency, if the thought of immanent emergencies still play on your mind.
 
Fast cast is a toy. It's fun, but you still must wait for 100% to cast your next spell and outside of hnm/god fights I've never had an issue with needing my cure to hit 5-10% earlier. Dispel isn't needed either. Since you can't get it from sub until 64, you should always have a brd or rdm at this point who will already be doing that. Getting finale from brd sub is just an added bonus, not a main point of using it for example. Only extra enfeeble rdm sub offers is gravity, which isn't that important to a whm.

You clearly underestimate escape. Even the best parties get the occasional dc, nasty link, accidental death, or fluke afk. It is unavoidable and inevitable, but escape can greatly reduce your downtime compared to a wipe. With rdm sub you are also missing out on elemental seal and sleepga. Rdm sub lacks the mp regeneration/conservation other subs offer.
Avatars from a Summoner sub are also pretty much useless, but at least they do more than stave off disasters that shouldn't happen often to begin with.
Avatars do nothing but bring disaster closer to realization. Preparing for the worst doesn't make for bad parties, it makes prepared parties who will experience less downtime than those trying to maximize and specialize for an extra hundred xp an hour.
 
Any WHM subbing SMN that casts Aerial Armor and Earthen Ward between fights scores big in my books, especially if you have a number of hate-pulling jobs that dont have shadows of their own.
 
Earthen Ward is level 46 or so =\ if /SMN could use it it'd probably be much more common to be under use.

I personally prefer /SMN because, while /BLM's conserve mp and such can be useful, it's also chancey on if it even works at all. Also, with a BRD or RDM I get 5mp/tic so I'm happy..that and Shining Ruby is basicaly a 1min Rampart for little mp, not the best feature but PLDs seem to like it and it's not like you don't get MP to spare..
 
Right... that was a SMN main healing for the party I'm thinking of. My bad.

Haven't seen Whispering Wind, Frost Armor, Shining Ruby, or Rolling Thunder - can anyone detail what they do? SE is denying me the right to level SMN so I will probably never know the intricacies of them.
 
Whispering Wind is equivalent to either Curaga 1 or Curaga 2 (I forget), for more MP, more delay (gotta summon Garuda after all), you only get it from sub at very high levels, you can only use it once a minute, and the only significant advantage is that the avatar gets the hate from doing the healing.

Frost Armor and Rolling Thunder wear off almost immediately, though they'd be quite useful if they actually lasted long enough to say so. Shining Ruby is okay but still only lasts a short time. Aerial Armor is better than Blink (three shadows instead of two - these are still unreliable blink shadows, not reliable utsusemi shadows) and it lasts a *long* time like 15 minutes or so, but the above notes for avatar abilities in general still apply.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Tractor yet. Or for that matter, Blind (and less importantly Poison). Nice to be able to debuff if you don't have a RDM (or don't have a RDM worth their salt), and the BLM would rather nuke - or use their elemental debuffs like Frost, that WHM/BLM couldn't land due to half-level elemental skill. And Tractor is, ya know, pretty bloody useful if someone dies in a bad place.

If madrigal from subjob BRD does the full +15 I'd be *very* surprised. I highly doubt its effectiveness is capped even for a 37 BRD main (generally BRD buffs cap their effectiveness about the time you get their replacement - this is observable at least for the ones with observable numbers - so I imagine it caps closer to 50). And when subbing BRD you're not using an instrument, and so you're only using Singing skill for buff effectiveness, rather than Singing skill + Wind/String skill. So cut the effective skill in half and you've got a Sword Madrigal about as effective as a level 18 BRD who *is* using an instrument, and that's when you're 75 WHM/37 BRD yourself.

Ballad is, of course, full and never-varying effectiveness from the moment you get it, but it does still tie up 8-10 seconds once every 2 minutes (which either means a delay before you start resting, or it means you're tied up mid-battle and that spider had better not choose to use Sickle Slash), and you're sacrificing base stats, job abilities, job traits, and spell selection from a more otherwise-useful sub just to be able to ballad yourself. (This applies both to WHM/BRD and RDM/BRD arguments.) 1 MP/tick is nice and all but it's not *that* important, in my opinion.

RDM sub gets you Fast Cast I at 30/15 and Fast Cast II at 70/35, and it gets you Dispel and Gravity (and a few things that might be useful when soloing such as Phalanx and En-spells), and otherwise doesn't get you anything that you don't naturally get as WHM or would get from BLM sub instead. The Fast Cast effects are a tad unimpressive. Dispel and Gravity are good arguments however, though just like you wouldn't benefit from subbing BRD if you have a BRD along, you wouldn't benefit from subbing RDM if you have a RDM along.

So I can see RDM sub and BRD sub having limited situational use, and SMN sub and BLM sub being more generally useful - BLM generally offering more *utility* (spell selection - Warp, Escape, Tractor, Blind, Sleep, Sleepga and the JA Elemental Seal; throw in Aspir as well although it's half-level skill and will consequently very frequently be resisted), while SMN offers higher stats but less utility of what you can do. They each contribute to MP efficiency in their own way that varies by situation. As already mentioned, Conserve MP is better if you're casting a lot, and the stuff you're casting is fairly high on MP. While Auto-Refresh is better if you're casting low MP spells, and infrequently.
 
Frost Armor and Rolling Thunder last about one minute, Shining Ruby lasts about two.
 
Frost Armor and Rolling Thunder, I assume, are similar to Stoneskin?

If so, I'mma fancy a guess that the amount of damage absorbed is based on enhancing magic skill?

I'm more accustomed to stabbing and cutting, so forgive my SMN ignorance.
 
generally BRD buffs cap their effectiveness about the time you get their replacement - this is observable at least for the ones with observable numbers - so I imagine it caps closer to 50
Accu+ amounts from madrigal are actually easily measureable. I recieved those numbers from Applepie along with +accu amounts for other job abilties. It just takes some testing and a little knowledge. Find something that is high evasion for example and changes evasion con lvls when you put on exactly +15 accu gear. Now try it without the gear, but with sword madrigal for example and see if you get the same results. You just repeat this to find the limits, for example find something that doesn't change with +14 accu gear, but does change with sword madrigal and no instrument.

Sword madrigal is +15(+4 more with +2 instr)
Blade madrigal is +25(+4 more with +2 instr)

From my understanding these have set amounts like ballad and paon for the most part. I'll see if I can do some personal testing later to verify this.
 
Rones said:
From my understanding these have set amounts like ballad and paon for the most part. I'll see if I can do some personal testing later to verify this.
Moving on to my BRD lack of knowledge. What benefit does a higher Instrument skill have on your songs - duration? Or does it effect threnody / mambo type of songs?
 
CmdrFly said:
Rones said:
From my understanding these have set amounts like ballad and paon for the most part. I'll see if I can do some personal testing later to verify this.
Moving on to my BRD lack of knowledge. What benefit does a higher Instrument skill have on your songs - duration? Or does it effect threnody / mambo type of songs?

You can't equip an instrument when you are whm/brd. You can only sing. So the answer to your question would be none^^.

As far as which sub is best for a whm, it depends on the situation. So again, I reiterate, level more than 1 subjob for your whm. It honestly doesn't matter which one you level first, but level them all.

*still has to level rdm sub*

Rdm sub imho will be the least used subjob you'll have as a whm. But, if you ever decided to level your rdm higher than Level 37, you'll have one helluva start on it.
 
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