SMN in Exp PT

[Arthur]

Posted by Bajaratt.

I pointed out that ANY support job can "do damage," but that it shouldn't mean that's a reason to invite them. You can throw out low damage BP's once a minute(down to 45 seconds), congrats; but that's still time that could be better spent curing, resting up, or just standing there not wasting your mp.

I didn't say anything about merit parties either. In fact, my only example was in a level 59-62 party(I was the 59 NIN); and both summoner's damage was horrendous. I'd much rather a SMN save their MP for something useful than pretending to be a DD in any form of experience party. Merit parties only further emphasize the point.

Since I couldn't finish what I was saying in the other thread, i'm going to finish it here.

I never said you should invite a SMN for DD. Going to say it for the 3rd time infact, SMN in an exp pt is a support job, not DD. Support is not and shouldn't be about curing only. It can be about enhancing, DMG and curing. Pretty much like COR, its not only about the rolls, it about dmg and/or curing too. The extra DMG and/or support cure is what makes it better. As SMN, you can do both if you have some sort of refresh and Elemental Siphion...which is the type of PT we were talking. I don't know where you even getting the pretending to be DD from anymore honestly. Because in that case you shouldn't invite a NIN either and alot of other jobs.

Not sure you congratulating there either but ok. You never said what lvl your 2 SMN+NIN was at but thats something I also said, Blood Pact rages are better at certain lvls, like 70 and 50. At 60 the Tier 4 spells are not horrible but it depends on what your fighting. I don't know what your SMNs were doing or what they were fighting or there smn magic skill. But all important details if your just doing to flat out say SMN can't DD in a PT.

Summoning Skill does matter, if you have low Summoning Magic Skill/Gear you wont be able to keep up buffs+DMG and MP will be harder to keep up.

If you reply to this Baj, do not repeat yourself. If you really think that a NIN can out DD 2 GOOD SMNs at every lvl then ok. Basically your point is SMN should just Cure if your in an exp PT because its better on the MP. And i'm saying you can do much more if your good on gear and skilled up,which would be Enhance +DMG+ Cure.

http://www.qcdn.org/ffxi/showthread.php?t=72370 The locked thread is here.

 

[Keryan]

I hate when people are retarded enough to think smn is a main healer. Take away the subjob and there are 2 carby cures, 1 garuda cure and a levi cure. Which happens to be once a minute. Spam cures or I could "waste" my mp doing AoE blink, stoneskin, but it seems some players think spamming cure 1 until level 22 is main healer. At 30's even ice spikes if there was no enfeebler. Lets not forget fenrir. He has two roars people seem to like as they boost stats. At 65 Fenrir <mine atleast> has hit imps for over 950 with his rage. I even have been main puller as smn. Got to love carby. You have to keep in mind party set up will reflect in what a smn is most needed for. I lucked out and was main healer only 6 times from 1-75. Cure 3 is not a huge amount of hp, and many players have died when a smn is main healing because the smn can not spam cure 3 fast enough to keep people alive. I will recommend that if you get a smn for healer that you get a dnc as well. I found this combo to be amazing.


Sorry people saying smn's should only cure is one of my pet peeves.

 

[Rari]

The argument I've always used, even with other "summoners", is that anything/whm is level 37 at best. Do you really want a 37WHM tagging along? Would you trust a 37WHM to save yer tail?

Back when I leveled SMN, I would accept invites to be main healer (just for the sake of obtaining exp.) But I always tried to avoid healing and instead focused on buffing w/ the occasional dmg BP if the party ran well. Surprisingly, parties back then were more focused and it worked. But If it didn't run well, then the party had some half-leveled healer trying to save them...it wasn't pretty.

SMN is a jack of all trades; good at a lot of things, great at nothing. We can buff, we can damage deal, we can enfeeble, and we can even nuke. And by "we" I don't mean us SMN, but rather a SMN and his/her avatar as everything we're capable of is through the avatar. We are a pet based job. Players are often quick to forget that because we are a mage job. However, unlike other mages, our job specific spells only call forth pets. But, unlike other pet jobs, we are dependent upon our mp and magic skill.

Years ago when SE was still adding the basic avatars, think RoZ era, SMN was intended to be a job you leveled AFTER other jobs; since the only way to obtain avatars was through the lvl65 primes then. Playing SMN well requires drawing from experiences with other jobs. A good SMN is on top of their BP timers, adapts to the situation, and not only knows when and which avatar to pull out, but when to swap gear to boost pertinent stats.

If you really think that a NIN can out DD 2 GOOD SMNs at every lvl then ok.

OT: you know what would be fun? Instead of parsers being limited to PC users, why not have SE add a "shooting range" gallery or something where a player simply dd's non-attacking targets w/ varying eva and def within a given amount of time. ...give us something other than what gear we have or that random one-time-at-band-camp damage we did... something more structured.

 

[Lyall]

I contributed/sparked the debate in the other thread, so I'll throw my 2 cents in here, too.

Referring to my experiences in party, which wasn't a ton because I'd either not get invites or I solo/duo'd my way for a long, long way, it never really felt like I belong there. I'm not arguing that Summoner isn't a support job; I know what we're capable of, but we have some extremely stiff competition.

We've already established that Summoner doesn't mainheal well at all without some help, and while that can work in a pinch, I've never really been in an experience party where that's the preferred method from the creation of the group. We're not Red Mages or White Mages, and we're not Bards or Corsairs or Dancers.

Summoner works in a support slot, but that's like saying that Dark Knight works as a DD slot before 30. Every other "heavy melee" in the game has a worthwhile weaponskill by that point, and while Drk certainly DOES damage, its less likely to be picked if there's a war or sam or drg seeking. The slot is open, but the jobs are not equal.

Also, I'm not bashing on Drks, just relating to the competition on having jobs that do the same thing as you, just better/more effectively/faster/whatever.

Edit: @ Arthur saying a nin can't outDD 2 good summoners:

I've never had enough MP to maintain just throwing BPs, and if you're in a party with two summoners, someone's got to be healing. I don't know if Baj meant he was parsing better or spiking better or whatnot, but a single BP:Rage every 55 seconds will not overwhelm any melee actively fighting. As nice as Siphon is, it is not refresh or convert. A Siphon at lv60 will replenish around 150mp, maybe 175 with capped skill/gear, and that's not enough to support a full-on fighting avatar.

Also, someone's got to heal, unless your party setup is nin smn smn whm xxx xxx, and then we're just making stuff up to present our points.

 

[Twinzero]

I leveled SMN 1-75 as well, and was oftentimes the healer. I was actually quite ok with main healing on SMN, and towards the end of my leveling, was invited on occaion simply because people had pt'd with me and knew I could do my job.

SMN can help a pt out and main heal as long as you are smart enough to do so. Tossing BP:W Stoneskin and Hastega helps a pt out, then you have cure 3 which is not too bad considering you can divine seal if the need arises. Also carby / levi have nice AoE cures too, which are used depending on situations if you need to remove status effects or not.

SMN can also DD/buff a pt fine as well, but as said before, depends mainly on level. I'd honestly never invite a SMN unless I was desperate on certain levels, but as long as you're competent, any job can work just fine in most situations. I also know SMN has no place in merit parties often either, cause even with my 75 gear which has all the BP- I can get aside from mythic, it would never equal my THF,DRG,DRK for DD or my WHM for healing to keep high chains up.

 

[LadyKiKi]

In my point of view I look at it like this:

(modified quote)

<mumble mumble>
SMN: I'm not really comfortable with that (main healing). I'm not a WHM; I'm a SMN.
PT Leader/PT member: What's the difference?
SMN: Well, a WHM cures people. A SMN just makes them more comfortable... while they die.

Original quote:

Church: Okay, you, Doc. Get over there and help Caboose.
DuFresne: My name isn't Doc. It's DuFresne.
Church: Yeah, I can't pronounce that. So from now on, your name is Doc.
DuFresne: I'm not really comfortable with that. I'm not a doctor; I'm a medic.
Tucker: What's the difference?
DuFresne: Well, a doctor cures people. A medic just makes them more comfortable... while they die.
Tucker: Mental Note: Don't ever get shot.

 

[Ewok]

I leveled SMN 1-75 as well, and was oftentimes the healer. I was actually quite ok with main healing on SMN, and towards the end of my leveling, was invited on occaion simply because people had pt'd with me and knew I could do my job.

SMN can help a pt out and main heal as long as you are smart enough to do so. Tossing BP:W Stoneskin and Hastega helps a pt out, then you have cure 3 which is not too bad considering you can divine seal if the need arises. Also carby / levi have nice AoE cures too, which are used depending on situations if you need to remove status effects or not.

SMN can also DD/buff a pt fine as well, but as said before, depends mainly on level. I'd honestly never invite a SMN unless I was desperate on certain levels, but as long as you're competent, any job can work just fine in most situations. I also know SMN has no place in merit parties often either, cause even with my 75 gear which has all the BP- I can get aside from mythic, it would never equal my THF,DRG,DRK for DD or my WHM for healing to keep high chains up.

Problem I have with SMN main heal, is there is absolutely no emergency cures available. Sickle slash or Death Scissors or any number of huge spike moves on even a well geared PLD, or an unlucky NIN, can mean death if you are 1-2 cure tiers behind. Course, if you are going to main heal, it should be a NIN tank based party (NIN tank + dd/NIN). The shadows allow you time to cast the right avatars, as well as making Earthen Ward worthwhile (I don't like SS on PLD because it is wiped in 2-3 hits). My BP's of choice were hastega, acc/eva +, and I was even getting decent results with Phalanx-ga in a PLD based party (IMO Phalanx is much better then either SS or Blink on a PLD, possibly even both).

Also, you'd be surprised at how many people do not understand that a RDM (or even WHM) with 500-600 MP can run circles around a SMN with over 1000 MP on main healing. Base MP means nothing, it's the rate at which you can recover that mp, and if you can increase your hp healed/mp ratio, that matter the most.

As to the merit party thing, I do remember getting invited to one. We actually did much better then I thought. I think in those we fill a role similar to COR. Support + DD + light Cures when needed. And at that lvl, if you don't have a RDM, I hope you are subbing SCH (sublimation + elemental syphon can give you 4-500MP every 5 mins).

 

[Lyall]

Everything relevant.

I can't agree more with what has been said here. Hurling cure3 at a paladin on colibri every 5 seconds doesn't ever overcome the mob's output, it just matches it, give or take 50hp either way. One bad Flurry or a pair of crits or any number of variables can put a summoner into healing debt so deep it takes nonstop spell slinging to rectify, not even counting a breath to pause and put pacts up. If you only put Ward up after a fight, you're not resting for MP, and if you're not resting for MP, even that formidable pool of 1k is going to quickly disappear.

 

[Rari]

...was oftentimes the healer. I was actually quite ok with main healing on SMN, and towards the end of my leveling, was invited on occaion simply because people had pt'd with me and knew I could do my job....I think in those we fill a role similar to COR. Support + DD + light Cures when needed.

+1

I hope you are subbing SCH (sublimation + elemental syphon can give you 4-500MP every 5 mins).

OT: Finally finished sch sub... <3 it. Under normal conditions, I'm getting 188sublimation + 313e.s. Levi 501's baby! (194+409 max, ie. dynamis on darksday )


...I need b.staff. :'(

 

[hellstorm]

Certain camps with certain setups they can heal find and normally in the past they would get the party spot because there was no main healer type available. So smn> no healer and back then smn had take what ever party they could get or solo bombs and goblins for long long time. Not so much now with the smn burns.

 

[Keryan]

I will say I found lv 65+ to be the best leveling for my smn. Lev and Ifrit resist the imps moves a lot. At 70 /sch was just awesome. I never had an issue with mp. Just popped on SS on everyone before I popped on sunlimation. Pld or nin tank or even a blu tanking did not matter. I would call Fenrir use 1 roar, BP rage his bite, then roar again. put puppy away after nailing 450-950 dmg. Then I would pop a cure or two and rest mp. The main thing is to have some sort of other support healer. Even if it is a /whm. You can actually main heal at these levels because 1. mobs are squishy. 2. Levi and carby have very nice AoE cures. With sublimation you can easily keep up the mp pool. At 70 the 1.5k dmg bloodpacts are very nice. Hit that off and the imp is near dead.

 

[Myrrh]

Personally, I think Smn should solo once they get the ability to have a free Carby. Just because Smn can be a gimp healer doesn't mean it should. I lvled both ways and the stress of being a gimp healer isn't worth it at all. Just fucking man up, go kite some bombs, and get chain 5 solo.

I can't count the number of times I've done parties on Smn were the tank took just too much dmg from a Pecking Flurry or a few crit hits in a row and they died.

 

[Whisp]

Most people stop thinking the smn should mainheal after suggesting their blm do the same. It might be better than nothing, but that doesnt always make it a good idea.

 

[Shirai]

Stupidly enough in a merit session as summoner IF (and that is a huuuge if) I merit as summoner I prefer the support/healer role.

For pure DDing in a merit party the summoner's ability is way too slow even if you are at the 45 seconds cap.
Aside from that if you also use support pacts aside from the DD pacts, even with top notch HMP gear + Siphon + Sublimation there is a point where you simply lack MP.
If you are indeed only using DD pacts it will be manageable, but spoken truthfully, you'll be a fifth wheel.
Also unless you are astralburning, two summoners in one party is a terrible waste of a partyslot, but that's my opinion.

Regarding the vs. ninja or whatever other DD job.
A decently geared ninja or whatever DD will easily outperform a summoner DD wise, two is indeed pushing it, but if you are looking at DOT vs. spike damage a decently geared nin will do better.
And you don't need gear that expensive to do so parses in the past have proven that.
If you as summoner are outperforming a ninja during a merit session the ninja's doing it terribly wrong.

a DD summoner has it's places, but in my opinion, a merit party it is not.
If you really dislike maintaining the role which grants a better exp/hour return I suggest making your own parties or stick to campaign.

Lastly; It is not that people want to see summoners maintaining a healer's or support role, it is a simple fact that a party performs better if a summoner maintains this role.
Also DD pacts in EXP parties are not a bad thing, as long as you have the MP to spare it can speed fights up or even save the chain if performed at the right time.

 

[Arthur]

Stupidly enough in a merit session as summoner IF (and that is a huuuge if) I merit as summoner I prefer the support/healer role.

For pure DDing in a merit party the summoner's ability is way too slow even if you are at the 45 seconds cap.
Aside from that if you also use support pacts aside from the DD pacts, even with top notch HMP gear + Siphon + Sublimation there is a point where you simply lack MP.
If you are indeed only using DD pacts it will be manageable, but spoken truthfully, you'll be a fifth wheel.
Also unless you are astralburning, two summoners in one party is a terrible waste of a partyslot, but that's my opinion.

Regarding the vs. ninja or whatever other DD job.
A decently geared ninja or whatever DD will easily outperform a summoner DD wise, two is indeed pushing it, but if you are looking at DOT vs. spike damage a decently geared nin will do better.
And you don't need gear that expensive to do so parses in the past have proven that.
If you as summoner are outperforming a ninja during a merit session the ninja's doing it terribly wrong.

a DD summoner has it's places, but in my opinion, a merit party it is not.
If you really dislike maintaining the role which grants a better exp/hour return I suggest making your own parties or stick to campaign.

Lastly; It is not that people want to see summoners maintaining a healer's or support role, it is a simple fact that a party performs better if a summoner maintains this role.
Also DD pacts in EXP parties are not a bad thing, as long as you have the MP to spare it can speed fights up or even save the chain if performed at the right time.

Well I agree with you, and I'm sure most people do too. Except for the NIN vs SMNx2 part. The PT that was mentioned wasnt a merit PT it was lvl60. The jobs of the other PT members wasn't mentioned but.. if you have 2 SMN in a PT I would assume 1 if not both are there for DD purposes and not need for them to cure much if at all. Which means they probably doing some DoT too from keeping avatars out.. At 60 NIN dont have much access to much haste gear and you will probably be using :ichi alot too.So, I still highly doubt the NIN would out DD both of them.

There really is no point in being SMN in a merit PT unless its your only job or for fun or something like that. But if you do then usually you would have a BRD or COR or RDM on your side.. which also helps, and if fighting something aspirable thats even more MP.

 

[Crumpet]

I think I solo'd SMN from 1-30 on standard exp mobs from 1-19, Korroloka tunnel worms 19-25 then Qufim worms 25-30. From there I main healed or support healed parties until 51 when a friend tought me how to solo bombs in Ifrits place. I had the occasional party from there but then I solo or duo'd djinns with Cantsee or Hasukasu until about level 67 then Did either SMN burns or EXP PT's for 75.

SMN can be very easily Soloed until 75 in my opinion. If I can solo stuff anyone can. I'm a terrible soloer. lol

As for the main heal part. SMN can just about do it if they stay very alert and the tank can keep hate from it spamming cures. But in my opinion. SMN belongs to blood pact in a party. For Stoneskin, Haste if it's not available by another job or damaging blood pacts.

 

[Shirai]

Well I agree with you, and I'm sure most people do too. Except for the NIN vs SMNx2 part. The PT that was mentioned wasnt a merit PT it was lvl60. The jobs of the other PT members wasn't mentioned but.. if you have 2 SMN in a PT I would assume 1 if not both are there for DD purposes and not need for them to cure much if at all. Which means they probably doing some DoT too from keeping avatars out.. At 60 NIN dont have much access to much haste gear and you will probably be using :ichi alot too.So, I still highly doubt the NIN would out DD both of them.

Even though ninja does not have a lot of haste gear in the 60's they do get a good amount of attack gear so still outshine an avatar in DoT with ease.
Their attackspeed still outdoes an avatar's attackspeed by far and they hit harder.
At level 61 Ninja also gains access to Blade: Jin, better katanas and more attack gear which gives more advantages over the avatar.

As for DD pacts around the 60's, until Eclipse bite the only real damage pacts are Double slap which on anything higher then T mobs has an extremely random accuracy resulting in more terrible than good damage returns, or tier IV nukes which themselves are also very prone to resistance unless you use a skillchain+MB setup, which also hurts damage done because you have to wait for an SC to be performed.
Also, you yourself as summoner should know avatar DoT is nothing to write home about.

Also saying 2 summoners outparsing one ninja is the same as saying 2 warriors outparse one samurai.
Well of course!

That said, taking it down to level 60+.
A summoner at those levels should still be able to play summoner.
Just like it is on merit levels, not always a DD role.
Healing and support are just as much roles a summoner can fulfill in a party while still being able to play summoner.

 

[Arthur]

Even though ninja does not have a lot of haste gear in the 60's they do get a good amount of attack gear so still outshine an avatar in DoT with ease.
Their attackspeed still outdoes an avatar's attackspeed by far and they hit harder.
At level 61 Ninja also gains access to Blade: Jin, better katanas and more attack gear which gives more advantages over the avatar.

As for DD pacts around the 60's, until Eclipse bite the only real damage pacts are Double slap which on anything higher then T mobs has an extremely random accuracy resulting in more terrible than good damage returns, or tier IV nukes which themselves are also very prone to resistance unless you use a skillchain+MB setup, which also hurts damage done because you have to wait for an SC to be performed.
Also, you yourself as summoner should know avatar DoT is nothing to write home about.

Also saying 2 summoners outparsing one ninja is the same as saying 2 warriors outparse one samurai.
Well of course!

That said, taking it down to level 60+.
A summoner at those levels should still be able to play summoner.
Just like it is on merit levels, not always a DD role.
Healing and support are just as much roles a summoner can fulfill in a party while still being able to play summoner.

The NIN was lvl59 so no Jin. Sure you have hauby and some cool stuff but even then its still hard as a NIN at 59 to be able to do great dmg and tank well at the same time. The SMNs were 59+. Again camp wasnt mentioned so you don't know if the NIN was using Enfeeb Ninjutsu or if the Tier IV spell would be resisted because from personally experience they work very well at 60.

I've seen 60 SMN do pretty good dmg from Blizzard IV at 60 in puk camps and anything that doesn't resist magic or is weak to a certain element it should work well agaisnt. Of course having avatars out for DoT isnt much but it still some dmg and it builds TP to increase Tier IV dmg. So I can't even see the NIN winning against not 1 but 2 SMNs.

Not sure if you agree though, you make it sound like you don't but I think you do lol.

 

[Shirai]

Nope not really.

I know what Tier IV nukes can do, but I also know their limits.
However even at level 59 or 60, with a a decent set of affordable gear a summoner simply won't beat a ninja in a parse.
A summoner will only beat them in spike damage, but that alone doesn't cut it when you count up the ninja's extra dot from katana melee.

Unless you show me a parse of a decently geared ninja vs a summoner of at least an hour worth of partytime or 100 mobs that proves otherwise, I shall stand by my statement that a single summoner will not beat a decently geared ninja in a parse.

And as I said, saying 2 summoners win against one ninja is the same as saying 2 warriors will win against a single samurai.
Common sense sais of course 2 will win against one.

 

[Myrrh]

Smns should stop being lazy and go to U range for exp. That place is the sex.