Some cool names

[Phraust]

I don't believe Kaizen endorses botting. I don't believe Kaizen would let a confirmed botter remain in the shell. I don't believe you personally know or even suspect anyone in the shell of botting.

But that doesn't mean I believe your blanket statement has any impressive amount of statistical confidence either. All it would take for it to be wrong is *one* person botting (even occasionally) and flying under the radar, while paying lip service to the anti-bot shell attitude so convincingly that nobody in or out of the shell suspected otherwise. That wouldn't change any of the statements in the above paragraph (which, honestly, are more important than the blanket statement). But it would still invalidate the blanket statement.

I see your point, but the other side of the coin is also just an insinuation. I would go so far as to say that your argument is "technically" illogical. Not going into the "neener-neener" kinds of things here but 33% < 66%. If there's a 66% chance we done' have botters... that's kinda a bigger proportion... 33% != 100%. I come from a past of being CONSTANTLY persecuted for botting/hacking, and have never cheated. I take great offense when accused. Trust me... I am always on the lookout for suspicious things in the shell... However, you're right. I may be wrong.

 

[Negorissimo]

eFFIng hacks and it's users...

 

[pchan]

We understand that you didn't get a shitload of items from them, but what YOU are too stupid to understand(although garvin explained it a little clearer) is that it doesn't matter what you got. So you got Nashira legs from OH, since you can't solo Ultima, you must have had a bunch of other OH people there. The rest of those members most likely benefited more directly from the hacking, which you in turn benefited from by having a stronger linkshell. You don't need monetary gain to be an accessory, but apparently that level of concept is just over your head, but I'm not surprised.

Except that you can kill ultima with 10 ppl in full AF ..

 

[Sharpe]

Except that you can kill ultima with 10 ppl in full AF ..

Do you have a point or do you just like throwing random comments around?

 

[beeznuts]

Except that you can kill ultima with 10 ppl in full AF ..

10 people in full AF? I don't know if I'm buying this one, pimp-chan.

 

[Uzor]

10 people in full AF? I don't know if I'm buying this one, pimp-chan.

7 BLMes have done it.

Actually, I think it was RDM BRD NIN WHM, and the rest BLMes, or something.

 

[Mistra]

On top of all that, You, Lavi of Quetzalcoatl, assume so much all the time. It's like you got a tumor in your brain that destroys the thing that separates fact from fiction. You assume "Facts" in your brain, yoiu make no effort to actually seek the truth. Mistra and I have had all of 3 conversations in our gaming career, and all three were pretty much the following:

1) M: You ready for the merit party?
P: Yeah.

2) M: you ready for the merit party?
P: Yeah.

3) M: you ready for the merit party? I need just a sec to finish assaults.
P: Yeah. Can we invite Antdog? lol
M: lolantdog.

that's it.
If you call that being friends then whatever. Either way, you're blind ass can't even see that Mistra got thier account WAY after the original BDF had apparen'ty bought the hax and quit.

SO you my lovely little tart, can shut the fuck up too.

The first part of this comment was golden. Again, Lavi, I have nothing personal against you, but he's absolutely right.

Before I start, thank you for the defense.
For the second part, it is in question I believe, because the date on there shows last month. Now, I've already made my rebuttal. I will not word it a second time. My time on BDF, has been legitimate, 100%.
At this point, if people choose to believe I do in fact have this program on my machine, or have at any point, please, feel free. That is your right, and I cannot take it away from you. If I am labled generally as a black sheep because of my name being on this list, and having sold quite a bit of fish in my skilling up of the craft over the last month and a half, fine. I daresay however, that those who intimately have spoken with me be it past or present, will know where I stand. While amicable and quick to gain, I am not quick to cheat for that gain.

I only posted the date so Lavi did not throw it back at you, and make you say "Oh..".

The prospect of inviting Antdog to our merit party the other night was perfect, by the way. Thanks again for that.

 

[Uzor]

Also, to add, I doubt that was in full AF, but yeah.

Entering Salvage, hope to be entertained after.

 

[Dowzer]

I'm sure you'll be glad to know that I did Sea and ToAU missions with people outside of OH then, so I didn't really gain anything from those. And I despise exping, so I've got most of my merits through manaburning.

So even if my assumptions are wrong, why are you still arguing this? It's already been presented that the linkshell benefited from cheating, which in turn made them stronger to do events like Ultima. Even if those hacks NEVER helped them or made them stronger, they still reached out for the help from a program. You chose to stay with them, even though they wanted to make themselves stronger through illegal means.

Even Zoolander states he couldn't use the bot properly, that doesn't matter. He chose to look for something to make the game easier for him. It's the same for people who use turbo controllers like Scwall. And it's the same for me because I actually did benefit from that. Sure, using a turbo controller isn't in the TOS, but it sure as hell opened up alternatives to bypassing JP ping. 1 + 1 = 2...Is it that hard?

 

[Vilurum]

I see your point, but the other side of the coin is also just an insinuation. I would go so far as to say that your argument is "technically" illogical. Not going into the "neener-neener" kinds of things here but 33% < 66%. If there's a 66% chance we done' have botters... that's kinda a bigger proportion... 33% != 100%. I come from a past of being CONSTANTLY persecuted for botting/hacking, and have never cheated. I take great offense when accused. Trust me... I am always on the lookout for suspicious things in the shell... However, you're right. I may be wrong.

I think I may have misstated the significance of the 33% when I came up with it. Too lazy to go back and look at my earlier post. The numbers are of statistical certainty. In other words, assuming you're 99% certain about any given member, then you're 67% certain about the whole group of 40.

And by "certain" I mean... you have enough data that your predictions *will* be right 67% of the time. And the other 33% of the time, they may or may not be right. They could be right. They could be wrong. Who knows.

So what that means is that (if you can make statements with 99% certainty, by the same definition, for *every* member - and honestly, I doubt you know every single person in the shell that well; I'm not sure I personally could make statements with 99% certainty even for my family or best friends) there's a 67% chance that your blanket statement is true... and a 33% chance that your blanket statement *may or may not be true*.

Not a 33% chance that your blanket statement is guaranteed to be false. 33% chance that you *could* be wrong, not 33% chance that you *are* wrong.

 

[Phraust]

Except that you can kill ultima with 10 ppl in full AF ..

No you can't, you dumb shit.
Dude, do you even play the fucking game? I am usually pretty tame, but this is me snapping today.

I swear it's like I just woke up this morning fine, and I look at my computer and se a sea of all the Idiots on our server begging to be shot.

I hope to god you are just the biggest joker on our server and just fucking with us for the sake of fucking with us pchan, because I have yet to read one single thing that resembles fact that you write. You say shit with Hellstorm's conviction, but with even less facts.

 

[Bajaratt]

I don't believe Kaizen endorses botting. I don't believe Kaizen would let a confirmed botter remain in the shell. I don't believe you personally know or even suspect anyone in the shell of botting.

But that doesn't mean I believe your blanket statement has any impressive amount of statistical confidence either. All it would take for it to be wrong is *one* person botting (even occasionally) and flying under the radar, while paying lip service to the anti-bot shell attitude so convincingly that nobody in or out of the shell suspected otherwise. That wouldn't change any of the statements in the above paragraph (which, honestly, are more important than the blanket statement). But it would still invalidate the blanket statement.

I understand what you're saying, and can I agree that it's possible, but I still don't find it likely given our claiming record. Back in the days that I played full-time, our claim rate was maybe 10-15% at best on fafhogg; and with only 4 real linkshells for competition that's far lower than what it should be if everyone was on the same playing field. People would just remember an insanely lucky week where we claimed 2-3 in a row(usually with only 1 shell for competition too) and say we have a high claim rate, while ignoring the next 2+ weeks of nothing. So while yes it's still possible that someone bots, statistically the chances are very low considering the empirical data.

The only reason kaizen members were responding with "none of our members cheat," is because they were responding to well-known idiots like sirelrohir and lavi, who spout off "kaizen is cheating" the second anyone brings up anything about endgame. Can anyone say with 100% certainty that none of it's linkshell members cheat? No. But the fact that none of our members were on that list as confirmed hackers grants a good deal of credibility to our claims that no one hacks. It's still not 100%, since there are other hacks, or they could have gotten it illegally, but it's definitely, completely NOT in anyway proof that hacking is going on within the linkshell. The absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence; but this list is evidence of existence, so because our names aren't on this list does support our claim of not botting.

But yes, if you go a step further and say that they hacked, and thus I benefited from illegal means because they got their items through illegal means, then yes, I am a guilty, dirty whore. But I don't really care about that.

Oh good, you finally got it. It only took a year and a half.

 

[supahkhronic]

I recently purchased Paint Shop Pro. After about a week of messing with it, I found out that it didn't do everything I wanted and needed it to do. So I quit using that, and I went out and purchased another that was more suitable to my needs.

Now, this may not be the case here in some instances, but generally speaking for myself, if I'm looking for a program to do something in particular, I keep trying different ones until I find the one that does what I want.

 

[Bajaratt]

Except that you can kill ultima with 10 ppl in full AF ..

Unless the group that got Uzor his nashira pants or whatever they are was in such a setup; you're a fucking moron posting retarded irrelevancies. You're seriously getting dumber with every post.

 

[Myrid]

numbers

This is why I hate math.

 

[jamal]

You're seriously getting dumber with every post.

IDK, remember this was quite a few posts ago:

If your group prevent you from lotting shit because you are pup leave your linkshell k ? Find 6 other ppl and get you some sweet sune-ate. So yes, you even admit it, usukane is awesome piece of gear.

Now let me compare a random THF75 and a random PUP75. I said random THF, meaning not too many r/e items ..

head : lolturban both
body : SH for thf ( well some dont have that even) for tp, pup will get P body (thf too ..)
Neck : random thf would gear the accuracy neck, same for pup
earring : attack or dex .. any difference ?
ring : sniper, str ring ... same boat
hands : not much choice for pup i admit. AF glove is their best piece.
back : attack cape (attack 15 for thf, attack 6 for pup)
waist : accuracy stuff or the haste belt from sacrarium, for both.
legs : this slot is different. PUP has good acc gear here.
feet : AF for example (pup) or leaping boots for THF.

k, out of this thread again D:

 

[Phraust]

I think I may have misstated the significance of the 33% when I came up with it. Too lazy to go back and look at my earlier post. The numbers are of statistical certainty. In other words, assuming you're 99% certain about any given member, then you're 67% certain about the whole group of 40.

And by "certain" I mean... you have enough data that your predictions *will* be right 67% of the time. And the other 33% of the time, they may or may not be right. They could be right. They could be wrong. Who knows.

So what that means is that (if you can make statements with 99% certainty, by the same definition, for *every* member - and honestly, I doubt you know every single person in the shell that well; I'm not sure I personally could make statements with 99% certainty even for my family or best friends) there's a 67% chance that your blanket statement is true... and a 33% chance that your blanket statement *may or may not be true*.

Not a 33% chance that your blanket statement is guaranteed to be false. 33% chance that you *could* be wrong, not 33% chance that you *are* wrong.

Ok, point taken.

But then there's this:

There's no evidence.
Under the radar or not. All these accusations are based on assumptions. People accuse us of using claim tools. Then who's using em? Everyone watches us so closely yet no one has facts or proof. Our claimes are spread out accross the board, I personally have claimed 4 times 2 times with a Boomerang. If anything that should be a clear fucking message to the dipshits that cheat that the only thing they've gained was a soiled reputation, because thier claim bots are still bound by the confines of luck.

And on top of this all your "Historical" stuff that gets brought up as "Facts" is all shit that was brought up in the past by other cheaters in the same circumstances they are in now, caught and clawing at thier accusors...

Devil's Advocate, fine.
Realistically, naw.

When your only evidence we cheat is because over the last 4 years that we claimed 1 in 7 fafhoggs when actively camping against known botters and those botters are the ones accusing us?

c'mon...

 

[Raesvelg]

Lemme clarify something, I'm not pointing the finger at Kaizen while screaming "BURN THE WITCH!" I'm just saying that attacking linkshells is unwise, since nobody's house is entirely clean. Fishbotting, if nothing else, is so widespread that you're less likely to find someone that's never used one as someone that relies on one at least occasionally.

And claim records are not the best way to go about proving innocence. Luck, as has been mentioned earlier, is a huge factor in claims, unless you're willing to use tools that will get you banned on sight. Of the people in Rise that admitted to botting after the shell's demise, none of them were particularly noteworthy claimers.

People bot, out of sheer laziness if nothing else. And remember, although I'm not in Pers I did get to read over Reya's should for months. If Pers is botting as a shell policy, they go to INCREDIBLE lengths to hide it even from themselves.

 

[Mishaela]

7 BLMes have done it.

Actually, I think it was RDM BRD NIN WHM, and the rest BLMes, or something.

So a NIN (/DRK for Stun!?), WHM (/DRK for Stun?!), a RDM (/DRK for Chainstun!?) and the rest being BLM (whether it be 7 or 14), you're saying a group can proverbially "manaburn" a mob?!

GET THE F-!K OUT.

 

[Phraust]

So a NIN (/DRK for Stun!?), WHM (/DRK for Stun?!), a RDM (/DRK for Chainstun!?) and the rest being BLM (whether it be 7 or 14), you're saying a group can proverbially "manaburn" a mob?!

GET THE F-!K OUT.

And then there's Mana Screen....
Go get em Mish!

Keel! Keel!! Keel!!!