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I know its barely been touched on but i want to ask the community to be very careful about implicating Rise in wide-spread bot activity. Ultimately just discussing it killed the shell.

We went claimless for 7 months, 0 claims, not a single one... and morale was low , there were disagreements in leadership causing one to leave and crack the shell... several memebers took this as an opportunity to jump ship, and thus I inherited a badly bleeding dying linkshell.

There were about 12 of us left when a meeting was called to discuss how to salvage the shell.... the first suggestion.... botting....
Instantly 3 people leave the meeting... the rest argue for a couple of hours. we ultimately agree to play it straight and target money NMs, but we knew that the shell had been permanently crippled jsut by having the debate.

With a heavy heart, I killed the shell and its forums 6 days later


I guess one could argue that bots were used covertly, but i can tell you this.... after so many months of 0 results, someone with a tool and the will to use it would be willing to keep camping and use that tool... there were never too many people with motivation like that.
 
Raesvelg said:
Lemme clarify something, I'm not pointing the finger at Kaizen while screaming "BURN THE WITCH!" I'm just saying that attacking linkshells is unwise, since nobody's house is entirely clean.
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While true, it's also worth noting that the members of kaizen are not the main ones bringing linkshells into this. Rather they're talking about individuals who are prominent members(leaders, even) of their respective linkshells who are now confirmed hackers. It's only the members of the linkshells who hackers are public who are trying to call out linkshells in a desperate attempt to get attention off their linkshells confirmed hackers.
 
(To Bajaratt and Phraust, too lazy to quote.)

I understand your points, and agree with them. In response to a "Kaizen bots" accusation without evidence, of course that's ludicrous and should be shot down. My point is that a valid counterargument to do said shooting down, is *not* a blanket statement that nobody in Kaizen bots period (which is a claim no non-omniscient person can make). That counterargument is as empty as the accusation. :P

A perfectly good counterargument is merely the shell's well-known policies on how it *would* react if anyone in the shell were discovered to be botting. It's unreasonable to make claims about what you know when you don't *know* it and have no way to humanly know it, but it's perfectly reasonable to make claims about what you expect you or your shell's leadership would do given a particular situation.

See the difference in the two arguments? I realize that the second argument is pretty much the truth of the matter, and I'm pretty sure that this is common knowledge as well. But the first argument is nothing more than an empty claim which more or less *can't* be proven to be true. That *first* argument is what I've been poking at.
 
Vilurum said:
(To Bajaratt and Phraust, too lazy to quote.)

I understand your points, and agree with them. In response to a "Kaizen bots" accusation without evidence, of course that's ludicrous and should be shot down. My point is that a valid counterargument to do said shooting down, is *not* a blanket statement that nobody in Kaizen bots period (which is a claim no non-omniscient person can make). That counterargument is as empty as the accusation. :P

A perfectly good counterargument is merely the shell's well-known policies on how it *would* react if anyone in the shell were discovered to be botting. It's unreasonable to make claims about what you know when you don't *know* it and have no way to humanly know it, but it's perfectly reasonable to make claims about what you expect you or your shell's leadership would do given a particular situation.

See the difference in the two arguments? I realize that the second argument is pretty much the truth of the matter, and I'm pretty sure that this is common knowledge as well. But the first argument is nothing more than an empty claim which more or less *can't* be proven to be true. That *first* argument is what I've been poking at.
Click to expand...

0/0 = ?

o-shi..
 
So I have a listing of the "unknown" section sorted alphabetically... anyone want it? Found reading that page to be hard on the eyes after a while so I compiled it myself, but it's like 47 pages long so I don't want to post it here.
 
Phraust said:
The attitude we present?

You can shut the fuck up to. You come running at us like a fucking crazy person every time you can, of course we're going to think you're fucking nuts. You're like the fucked up drun ex-girlfriend that's in the streets naked screaming "WHY WON"T YOU LOVE ME!!!"

Dude, we're good people, but you treat us like shit because we're good at what we do, we're not going to just turn the other cheek. Wtf are we suppose to do you dumbass? "Oh Lavi's being a dipshit and flinging poo at us like the monkey they are... We better just open our mouths ad take it!" no... You're a dipshit, and you are a spiteful jealous one, because you suck, and you are on the outside. That's not use being elitist, that's us thinking YOU are a dipshit. Because we don't like YOU, and others of your ilk. Sorry we don't accept gimps, sorry we don't try to excuse the Blitz Ring wearing Wars, and the Brd subbing Whms, But there's a reason we are able to do the things we do, and it ain't by cheating, and it ain't by lowering our standards. It' snot being elitist, it's being realistic. Would you hire an uneducated dipshit with a room temurature IQ to run a division in your company? No.

On top of all that, You, Lavi of Quetzalcoatl, assume so much all the time. It's like you got a tumor in your brain that destroys the thing that separates fact from fiction. You assume "Facts" in your brain, yoiu make no effort to actually seek the truth. Mistra and I have had all of 3 conversations in our gaming career, and all three were pretty much the following:

1) M: You ready for the merit party?
P: Yeah.

2) M: you ready for the merit party?
P: Yeah.

3) M: you ready for the merit party? I need just a sec to finish assaults.
P: Yeah. Can we invite Antdog? lol
M: lolantdog.

that's it.
If you call that being friends then whatever. Either way, you're blind ass can't even see that Mistra got thier account WAY after the original BDF had apparen'ty bought the hax and quit.

SO you my lovely little tart, can shut the fuck up too.
Click to expand...

You and your ilk as you so put it, threw the first stones. Perhaps if your closet was clean of any skeletons, maybe it'd be taken up with some sincerity. But you'll keep Demir around, right? Won't ever question Agris, right? Sure, you can point the finger at me with impunity all you want, but when it comes down to it, you'll keep them around and never question them but expect everyone else to clean their skeletons while you hang yours out for show. Good show.

I'm sure it seems like everyone's coming at you with a butcher knife ready to chop off your head, but it's your imagination. For you personally, you're such a prick, it's probably dead on. The rest of Kaizen isn't so bad though, a bunch of morons some of them, but there are some good people that are actually respectable. But here is a tip: If you don't want someone to attack you personally or your shell, then don't fucking attack everyone else. THEY WILL COME BACK AT YOU WITH THE SAME VERACITY YOU DO. Really, if you followed Nasya's lead and just stay the fuck out of it, someone would have done all the work for you and you could have been clean and clear.

Deny all the cheating you want, it's there. You can keep being ignorant all you want, but everyone knows it. just keep passing the buck and point the finger long enough to distract people from your own mistakes, you're good at it.

Really, I gave you far more credit, but I always get proven wrong. BDF bought the hax when? Sep 16th, 2007. When did you start the WAR merit testing with Mistra? Early September? Yah, it MUST have been the original BDF, I mean what better way to spend 20 dollars than on a character you don't own or a game you don't play. Dumbass.

Oh and please do respond, I want to hear more about the Kaizen dream.
 
Vilurum said:
(To Bajaratt and Phraust, too lazy to quote.)

I understand your points, and agree with them. In response to a "Kaizen bots" accusation without evidence, of course that's ludicrous and should be shot down. My point is that a valid counterargument to do said shooting down, is *not* a blanket statement that nobody in Kaizen bots period (which is a claim no non-omniscient person can make). That counterargument is as empty as the accusation. :P

A perfectly good counterargument is merely the shell's well-known policies on how it *would* react if anyone in the shell were discovered to be botting. It's unreasonable to make claims about what you know when you don't *know* it and have no way to humanly know it, but it's perfectly reasonable to make claims about what you expect you or your shell's leadership would do given a particular situation.

See the difference in the two arguments? I realize that the second argument is pretty much the truth of the matter, and I'm pretty sure that this is common knowledge as well. But the first argument is nothing more than an empty claim which more or less *can't* be proven to be true. That *first* argument is what I've been poking at.
Click to expand...

I've been in class for the past few hours, but I can not agree more with Raes and Vil and this is what I have been trying to say and have been saying since this thread started.

Even though when particular prominent members as individuals are pointed out and accused/proven to cheat it obviously has a wider implication on the shell itself. I think that is a reasonable statement to make or people would not in this thread accuse people such as Uzor for benefiting directly from cheating. If we can agree that a singular member has at least an inkling of representation of a shell then it reasonably follows that when an individual is accused of acting in a way not befitting community standards that has a direct impact on the rest of the shell (eg claiming) that the shell too is seen as to a degree accountable. As Vil says, this accountability is measured in how they deal with such a member.

As I am sure you know, people love hypocrisy, they seek it out, they crave to expose it. For people who came straight out and said that they had used ffxiapp, the hunt is over, its not fun anymore. What to do now? There are still people on the list unanswered for and the reason it becomes such a delicious prospect is because one~two of those people are possibly related to Kaizen which the OP of the thread is a member of who pointedly mentions Zoolander. It isn't a surprise, if you know how people react on this board its as obvious as putting the circle block in the circle hole that people are going to try and dig up the dirt of the one pointing the finger. People perceive Kaizen as pointing the finger(whether they are rightfully doing so or not) because of the relation of the OP but moreover the unusual amount of posting from its members in this thread.

Needless to say, Kaizen's policy with botters is very apparent and most everyone who is of a level head believes they would stick to it if ample proof is provided. I think the majority of frustration (typified by Rhaddy and Jamal's back and forth) is rooted in the perception that with evidence used to indict others by people linked to Kaizen that is then turned on suspected Kaizen members (obviously not as absolute as Zoolander or Chemira) but is then brushed off by said members instead of at least creating a shadow of a doubt. This is why people see a holier than thou attitude or elitism or any other fitting isms and whathaveyous. Despite the ever present fact that people bot, ALOT of people bot its as if it could never happen here.

I'm naturally a very critical person and no offense is meant by this, just a reasoning behind those of us who choose to remain uncertain and suspect to broad reaching blanket statements about LS sanctity.
 
Bajaratt said:
While true, it's also worth noting that the members of kaizen are not the main ones bringing linkshells into this. Rather they're talking about individuals who are prominent members(leaders, even) of their respective linkshells who are now confirmed hackers. It's only the members of the linkshells who hackers are public who are trying to call out linkshells in a desperate attempt to get attention off their linkshells confirmed hackers.
Click to expand...


Crosis and Tailss were in particular the ones I was responding to. Very quick to paint other LS, not so fond of admitting that they can't say with any certainty that nobody in Kaizen hacks.
 
screw ffxiapp MrHacks totally > it!

Interesting list though few people you woulda never expected oh well as they say "The plot thickens eh?"
 
Garvin said:
10 people in full AF? I don't know if I'm buying this one, pimp-chan.
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Yes apparently you can't do it neither you friend tht can't land shit on ultima with Nashira pants
 
Dowzer said:
So even if my assumptions are wrong, why are you still arguing this? It's already been presented that the linkshell benefited from cheating, which in turn made them stronger to do events like Ultima. Even if those hacks NEVER helped them or made them stronger, they still reached out for the help from a program. You chose to stay with them, even though they wanted to make themselves stronger through illegal means.

Even Zoolander states he couldn't use the bot properly, that doesn't matter. He chose to look for something to make the game easier for him. It's the same for people who use turbo controllers like Scwall. And it's the same for me because I actually did benefit from that. Sure, using a turbo controller isn't in the TOS, but it sure as hell opened up alternatives to bypassing JP ping. 1 + 1 = 2...Is it that hard?
Click to expand...

You asked a question, I answered it.

Anyway,

Bajaratt said:
Oh good, you finally got it. It only took a year and a half.
Click to expand...
No, I've understood it for a long time. I just don't agree with it, since that basically means the entire server is guilty.

Mishaela said:
So a NIN (/DRK for Stun!?), WHM (/DRK for Stun?!), a RDM (/DRK for Chainstun!?) and the rest being BLM (whether it be 7 or 14), you're saying a group can proverbially "manaburn" a mob?!

GET THE F-!K OUT.
Click to expand...

On the other hand...
http://kanican.livejournal.com/8445.html

Just because your group is too unskilled to do it doesn't mean everyone is. They obviously pulled it of, but apparently the world circulates around you. So get the fuck out.

PS: at least I'm not insecure enough that I feel the need to edit out 2 letters to make people not see that I wrote a bad word.

/hides before mommy catches me
 
Lavi said:
You and your ilk as you so put it, threw the first stones. Perhaps if your closet was clean of any skeletons, maybe it'd be taken up with some sincerity. But you'll keep Demir around, right? Won't ever question Agris, right? Sure, you can point the finger at me with impunity all you want, but when it comes down to it, you'll keep them around and never question them but expect everyone else to clean their skeletons while you hang yours out for show. Good show.

I'm sure it seems like everyone's coming at you with a butcher knife ready to chop off your head, but it's your imagination. For you personally, you're such a prick, it's probably dead on. The rest of Kaizen isn't so bad though, a bunch of morons some of them, but there are some good people that are actually respectable. But here is a tip: If you don't want someone to attack you personally or your shell, then don't fucking attack everyone else. THEY WILL COME BACK AT YOU WITH THE SAME VERACITY YOU DO. Really, if you followed Nasya's lead and just stay the fuck out of it, someone would have done all the work for you and you could have been clean and clear.

Deny all the cheating you want, it's there. You can keep being ignorant all you want, but everyone knows it. just keep passing the buck and point the finger long enough to distract people from your own mistakes, you're good at it.

Really, I gave you far more credit, but I always get proven wrong. BDF bought the hax when? Sep 16th, 2007. When did you start the WAR merit testing with Mistra? Early September? Yah, it MUST have been the original BDF, I mean what better way to spend 20 dollars than on a character you don't own or a game you don't play. Dumbass.

Oh and please do respond, I want to hear more about the Kaizen dream.
Click to expand...

You have the Skinhead mentality.
You jump the bandwagon when you think you got a possee backing you up. You say we cast the first stones, but where in this thread did we start attacking you? Or any thread for that matter? You're brain's faulty, and needs to be rewired to handle facts.

My closet is clean.

I am only an asshole when provoked, or when surrounded by idiots, picture a hungry lion backed into the corner by tasty rabbits...

Throw the first stones we did not. Maybe if people didn't CHEAT we'd have no reason to throw stones at em. The public's logic is like "Why are you picking on the rapists, it's not like you haven't had sex before." It's apples and oranges kid... These people were CAUGHT with real FACTS and SELF-ADMITTED to CHEATING. All you got on us is vapor and speculation, and loose associations.

You're trying to pin Mistra on me as a black mark, saying they're my "Friend" trying to add their association to me to soil my name and agruements? Like I said Mistra and my's relationship is that of aquaintances, I don't even know if they are a dude or a chick. And that's besides the point, your tactics in arguing are flawed and unsubstantiated.

Here's you breed of logic back at you:

You, Lavi, have assaulted my arguments and brash scorn for those who cheat. Therefore you condone cheating.

See how wrong that logic is?

How about this:

You, Lavi, have the good graces of the one you accused, Mistra, and since you think knowing someone is a cheater makes you a hypocryte, then you are a hypocryte, and filth just like me.

You're a fucking moron.
I stopped having wit-wars with unarmed opponents but I will make the exception for you.

You've tried to stregnthen your already vaporous accusations by pinning even more vaporous accusations on me specifically via association based on a flawed assumtion. You owned yourself.

You are just mad at us because we treat you like shit because you're such an unbelievable tool. I don't see you lashing out so vehemently at the others, just kaizen members. You know why? Because it kills you that people can do WHAT YOU CAN'T, do it easily, and do it without cheating. To your feeble little brain, you think that if YOU can't do it, it can't be done without the aid of cheats. Guess what princess, the game is designed to be played without cheats, and that's what we do.

Sorry you're trying to work on the rightous path and do things without cheating but you can't find yourself succeeding because you're such a moronic piece of shit that no one wants anything to do with you. Maybe if you delt with FACTS and stopped assuming so much and stopped being such a self-rightous twit all the time... And trying to bring everyone down to your level so you can have some minor sense of accomplishment, or at the least and EXCUSE FOR WHY YOU'RE SO SHITTY...

I know when my name is spoken, the majority of the population respects me.

Can you say the same?
 
Mattaru said:
I've been in class for the past few hours, but I can not agree more with Raes and Vil and this is what I have been trying to say and have been saying since this thread started.

Even though when particular prominent members as individuals are pointed out and accused/proven to cheat it obviously has a wider implication on the shell itself. I think that is a reasonable statement to make or people would not in this thread accuse people such as Uzor for benefiting directly from cheating. If we can agree that a singular member has at least an inkling of representation of a shell then it reasonably follows that when an individual is accused of acting in a way not befitting community standards that has a direct impact on the rest of the shell (eg claiming) that the shell too is seen as to a degree accountable. As Vil says, this accountability is measured in how they deal with such a member.

As I am sure you know, people love hypocrisy, they seek it out, they crave to expose it. For people who came straight out and said that they had used ffxiapp, the hunt is over, its not fun anymore. What to do now? There are still people on the list unanswered for and the reason it becomes such a delicious prospect is because one~two of those people are possibly related to Kaizen which the OP of the thread is a member of who pointedly mentions Zoolander. It isn't a surprise, if you know how people react on this board its as obvious as putting the circle block in the circle hole that people are going to try and dig up the dirt of the one pointing the finger. People perceive Kaizen as pointing the finger(whether they are rightfully doing so or not) because of the relation of the OP but moreover the unusual amount of posting from its members in this thread.

Needless to say, Kaizen's policy with botters is very apparent and most everyone who is of a level head believes they would stick to it if ample proof is provided. I think the majority of frustration (typified by Rhaddy and Jamal's back and forth) is rooted in the perception that with evidence used to indict others by people linked to Kaizen that is then turned on suspected Kaizen members (obviously not as absolute as Zoolander or Chemira) but is then brushed off by said members instead of at least creating a shadow of a doubt. This is why people see a holier than thou attitude or elitism or any other fitting isms and whathaveyous. Despite the ever present fact that people bot, ALOT of people bot its as if it could never happen here.

I'm naturally a very critical person and no offense is meant by this, just a reasoning behind those of us who choose to remain uncertain and suspect to broad reaching blanket statements about LS sanctity.
Click to expand...



Finally.. i coulda sworn that i myself yesterday said you can't prove anything with this. You can't prove if they've stopped using it, are still using it, or if they using another program. The list is only of ONE hacking program. People in this thread have stated that there are many more programs. What has these 45 pages of flame proved? NOTHING!!! Basically, this was just what the doctor ordered for ppl who love to post nonsense on flameboards. Congratulations people, after a full day of discussing, debating, and pointing fingers, you are back at the starting line. Care to take a few more steps backward?
 
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