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Illyria

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Adventurer
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
330
Age
42
Location
Indiana
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Windy
Main Job
RedMage-Female
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Dragoon-Female
Third Job
WhiteMage-Female
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Quetzalcoatl
Linkshell
Origin
FFXIV
Illyria
I did not write what follows and it may offend people as it deals a great deal with religion but it had a profound effect on me (it was writen by a good friend I have know for many years... they have nothing to do with FFXI)

Several years ago, I started college and found myself facing a very difficult assignment. I was asked to sit down and in so many words, describe exactly what I believe. My credo if you must. For the first time in my life, I was expected to take my thoughts, morals, values, standards and adopted lifestyle and articulately compile them into words that anyone would be able to understand. I sat there, late at night, the evening before the paper was due and was completely baffled to realize that I didn't know what I believed.
You see, I knew what I believed according to other peoples' standards but according to my own? I was completely blank. So what did I do? I wrote what I knew. I wrote what I had been told. I wrote what would be expected of me. The paper was in my own words but the thoughts were plagiarized, taken from the minds of everyone who had influenced me up to that point.
Since then, I have allowed myself to be open, to be tolerant of the world around me and to not be afraid of change, differing attitudes and unfamiliar beliefs. To learn about something is to not adopt it as your own. It simply means that you are open to the thought of expanding your mind, exploring new realms and obtaining what is in my opinion, the ultimate goal; a better understanding of the world around us.
Here I set, five years later, the shell of my former self but the inner workings of a completely different individual. I have learned to ignore the incessant bombardment of testimony of who has found what god and which religion has fitted their life so well. They complain that without this way of living, they would feel completely lost and without hope.
Why do we as human beings feel that we need someone to tell us exactly what to do? Why do we find comfort in something that we can't prove, something that we can't see and also feel we have the right to defend this age old hypothesis? Why do we hold others' beliefs against them when it was our parents, our families, our churches and many others around us who instilled this way of thinking in us from birth? Did we even have a decision in the matter? Did you parents ask you, "Sweetie, would you like to go somewhere and learn about something that may not be true but will be held against you if you don't believe?" Of course they didn't! Instead you were forced to listen to it at such a young age, it became necessary. It became something that, if not invited, would haunt you the rest of your life just for questioning that there may be another way.
I feel religion should not be mentioned, not one word on the matter uttered until an individual is of an age to make their own decisions. If religion was taught as a college course, a subject of which you have no prior knowledge, it would not hold as much ground as what it does today. When taught from birth, you know no other way of thinking. Believers around the world will argue that religion is a convenient tool for society control. And, yes, religion does serve as a good resource for giving people a proper way to live their life. However, at what point does religion take too much control? How can we even say that we have a legal separation of church and state when beliefs are mental, beliefs are fused into our mind and part of those beliefs forbids us from thinking otherwise? And I feel I have a right to judge on this matter when my own life is affected by such an atrocity.
I have accepted the fact that gay marriage will not be legal in my lifetime. To dream of such at this point is a waste of my time because until our government is made up of a more tolerant generation, we will not see change. We will not see our government respect the rights of every citizen of this country because of their unwavering beliefs. Other countries have already realized that beliefs cannot shape a nation. The people, the ones that we can see, the actions of others that affect those around us are what shape a country, not the idea that there is some omnipotent power that controls all in existence, that determines who is bad and who is good and how you must attempt to live your life in utter perfection just to be privileged enough to be one of the saved.
I do not hate religion. What I can't stand are the religious. The people who feel that they have the right to look at you and determine by their own standards, that you are a sinner, that you will be condemned and that their own lives entitle them to make this accusation. I know atheists who are more moralistically sound and stable than a 50 year old veteran Christian who has dedicated their entire life to what they claim is the right path. And what kills me is that every religious person in the world believes that what they put their faith in is the only way. They will agree that that they don't think it's possible for all religions to be right. With that being said, wouldn't it be more logical to agree that if they all can't be right, maybe they're all just wrong? But you see, there in lies the problem. Religion has no room for logic.

Now starts my credo:
I do not believe in 'meant to be'. I do not believe in destiny. I do not believe in fate. I believe in me.
I believe that our choices are the only thing that determine our quality of life, who we meet, the job we get, the car we drive, the home we live in, whom we share that home with, our attitude towards this world and any possibility hereafter. I do not doubt the possibility of a God. Without proof of existence, it still remains just that, a possibility. But I have also come to understand that we as human beings do not have the capability to understand exactly what it's all about. I find it humorous that we have explored more of outer space than our ocean here on our planet. We do not have the capability to understand our own home, yet we feel we have the right to determine what lies millions upon millions of miles away and make an accurate judgment as to where it came from. Maybe there was divine intervention in all of it. But why is it not a possibility that the same power which created all of this is no longer around? Maybe we really are alone.
Speaking of which, I also find it hilarious that some human beings have developed such a god-complex as to believe that we are the only ones out there. I'm not defending the existence of tiny green men, but I am defending the possibility that with as vast as the universe is, there is much more a possibility that something else is there than that God created all of this. The Earth and the universe which encompasses it is a special gift from something we never have, still don't and probably never will see and it was created just for us; six billion people who each have their own way of thinking. Find logic in that I ask you.
I do not judge people who feel that their life is a bit more complete when they have the guidance that comes with religion. I myself am constantly looking for anything that may benefit my life and further help me in making the right decision. However, I will not subject myself to living a life that does not allow for mistakes. I will not be forced to believe that even my thoughts can be used against me and is something for which I need forgiveness. How is that living? Without mistakes, we cannot learn a lesson and therefore grow into mature adults.
As I have stated before, I believe in me. I believe that I know enough of the difference between right and wrong to not need a complete lifestyle to guide my every step just to ensure the possibility that when I die, I will not regret it. When I die, I want the world to remember me as someone who helped people, who gave them good advice, who was there at 3 in the morning to listen and to help with whatever problem they may have, who made them laugh, who made them happy, who made them feel special and confident in the fact that there was at least one person in this world who cared, not as someone who would pray with you, thus asking you to seek help from something that you cannot see, cannot hear and never answers back.
I pay my bills. I go to work. I make the decision to do this and to do that. I decide to help people, to be someone's friend, someone's lover, someone's teacher. For several years, I have been the one to make the decisions as how to live my life, thus making me in control of what happens. I find comfort in knowing that I can look back at myself in the mirror, that when I speak, I hear my own voice. I don't even ask for help from my own parents let alone from something that supposedly hates people like me anyways. Oh, I know, I know. God hates sin, not the sinner. Yet it's this supposed 'sin' that keeps god from loving me unconditionally, which according to most, he does to begin with. Hmm. And how is it a sin? I want to spend my life with a man. I want to feel the comfort of a man's touch. I want the person I sleep beside at night to be a man. This is how I feel. This is the urges, the feelings, the hormones that race through my body. How do you control that? How do you turn that off? Why does the world honestly believe that it's a choice? Do you think I would choose to be hated? Do you think Matthew Shepherd chose to be gay all in the hopes that he would be tied to a fence in the middle of a field, beaten and then left to die? Which by the way, for those of you that don't know, he was tied to a fence, beaten and left to die, and that's exactly what he did. He died!
I will not pay mind to beliefs that teach me to hate! Nor will I stand here and be judged for who I am. I am GAY! Not a mass-murderer. I will not stand for being told that I can go to church every Sunday, read my bible daily, pray daily, live my life according to Christ yet if I decide to spend my life with a man, I am still guaranteed a one-way ticket to hell. DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE? If so, I beg you to elaborate. I beg you to tell this supposed lost queer exactly what he's missing.
There is no point to what I have had to say here other than to make myself feel better. I am also not asking for change. Our religious beliefs shape the type of person we become and that is not something that most are willing to mess with. However, I will not feel that the only thing I've been told is the right answer. I also will not feel like a hypocrite and judge something before taking ample enough time to understand all aspects, all views and points of the subject. It's the same as those of us who feel we have the right to bitch about our president, yet we don't take one day out of 4 years to go decide who that president will be. If you're not willing to make change happen and understand something all because you want to know for sure, then I pity your outlook on life.

(signature of writer removed)

-Strange is our situation here on Earth. Each of us comes for a short visit, not knowing why, yet sometimes seeming to divine a purpose. From the standpoint of daily life, however, there is one thing we do know: that man is here for the sake of other men – above all for those upon who smiles and well-being our own happiness depends.-
 
I don't care that your friend is a guy. I want to marry him. He have pretty much exactly the same view on religion as I do.

The only thing that holds the bible together is "Free will". It is the last argument they have. Its their last life line. Its the only argument that can not be countered, and that all Christians rely on to save them. It is, their last hope.

One of my favorite quotes is
If God is willing, but not able, he is not omnipotent.
If God is able, but not willing, he is malevolent.
If God is both willing and able, then whence cometh evil ?
If God is neither willing, nor able, then why call him god ?
which is where Christians will respond with "Free will". Another one that I agree with 100% is
Religion is thought

by the common man to be true,
by the wise man to be false,
by the rulers to be useful.



A lot of people talking for Christianity and religion use the argument that the world is too perfect to not have been created by something, which proves the existence of a greater power. Personally I'd say evolution, law of the jungle and randomness are these powers, but they'll say its God. I'll say the chance of the world to be created the way it is, is quite possible through an infinite amount of tries. Due to there being an infinite amount of outcomes, the world would have become perfect an infinite amount of times. They also say that God is perfect. In that case I'd like to know what created God, because apparently something can't be created perfect through randomness and evolution.
 
Lol... Uzor in case you missed this... he would marry you... he is gay... sorry just had to say that. And sorry I just now read your reply. I quit checking after now one really posted.
 
I do not hate religion. What I can't stand are the religious. The people who feel that they have the right to look at you and determine by their own standards, that you are a sinner, that you will be condemned and that their own lives entitle them to make this accusation. I know atheists who are more moralistically sound and stable than a 50 year old veteran Christian who has dedicated their entire life to what they claim is the right path. And what kills me is that every religious person in the world believes that what they put their faith in is the only way. They will agree that that they don't think it's possible for all religions to be right. With that being said, wouldn't it be more logical to agree that if they all can't be right, maybe they're all just wrong? But you see, there in lies the problem.

i agree with this completely, the thinking of people who are usually far to the right christians (the conservative eveangelicals who 9/10 of them thought that jerry falwell was an incredible human being) that they themselves are so morally clean that they can judge other people without remorse is sickening, these are the same people who, if their own son was gay would disown him and forget he even exists which is sad. to be tolerant in this country is to be wrong. religion is making this country step backward instead of moving forward . the old beliefs are stopping intelligent advancement. shit im surprised we arent still stoning known sinners in the town square...oh wait...

Do you think Matthew Shepherd chose to be gay all in the hopes that he would be tied to a fence in the middle of a field, beaten and then left to die? Which by the way, for those of you that don't know, he was tied to a fence, beaten and left to die, and that's exactly what he did. He died!

...yea

Religion has no room for logic.

Quoted for emphasis on truth

I do not believe in 'meant to be'. I do not believe in destiny. I do not believe in fate. I believe in me.

very Buddhist way of thinking, i however have to disagree slightly, although i do not believe in fate or destiny i do believe slightly in things being "meant to be" i've seen it far too many times, although in most cases the reason you think its meant to be for isnt the one

I too believe in the god within me, and through myself all things are possible, i think Buddhism being more of a guide on how to be more then a religion helped me to see the world and people for what they really are and helped me to be a better a person today then i was yesterday, without perfect hate there cannot be perfect love, and without people who teach you how not to be, you cannot learn from them and be a better person yourself...yin and yang
 
Holy crap, if only more people were that open minded. Your friend has my kudos, that is incredibly well put.
 
I probably would've came up with a similar response if I was asked what I believe in.

That is a very well put response.
 
Good stuff

I'm still holding out that it's this kind of thinking in our generation that will eventually run this country some day
 
I do think it's worth pointing out that a significant majority of the "religious" are not illogical nor do they want to determine the beliefs of every other person. Most religious people find themselves somewhere along the paths of their lives identifying something as having meaning. They hold onto that, but it's a very personal thing for most people. Lots of them find significance in sharing it through traditional gatherings. But take a church, mosque or synagogue and ask each member what they believe, and you'll be highly unlikely to find two people who have the same beliefs.

I happen to be a Christian. What I always find ironic about these discussions is that Jesus of Nazareth, at least as described in the gospels (the core of the Christian New Testament), was primarily opposed to rigid structures of religious society that had taken all the meaning out of faith. People are banking in a temple. People are ignoring poverty. People won't talk to those outside what they believe to be their social class, and they certainly won't help them.

A lot of theology since then has boiled down to simple statements that are as trite as the original post makes them out to be: "God hates the sin but loves the sinner."

I always sense a danger of what I call "evangelical atheism." I think it's very true that a number of churches hand out rules and not meaning, or hold to rigid traditions instead of theologically interrogating new experiences (gay marriage is an EXCELLENT example of this). The reason I call evangelical atheism dangerous is that it carries with it this seductive idea that you can reject ANYTHING uncomfortable, and often getting to understand your own beliefs and what is meaningful and significant to you takes some discomfort on the way. We all have moments where what we want to believe and what we slowly realize is true butt heads. The problem with EA is that it endorses taking a nihilist approach and saying that anyone who disagrees with us is just spouting dogmatic nonsense, whether it be from religious doctrines or strands of secular humanism.

The other issue that is always at stake for me is that religions are GOOD at this. They've spent thousands of years talking over the conditions of the human experience. Who could disagree with "It is good to treat others as you want to be treated?" Who could disagree with the basic psychology of "If you have a problem with someone, talk to them about it; if they understand you, you've saved that relationship?" These are the easy examples. There are increasingly complex ones as you start to understand various religions and their views.

I know this begs the question, "But religions insist on you thinking certain things about God!"

The problem is, you do. Anyone who cares enough about the idea that there is some way that things SHOULD be believes in something. They may not think that there is a white guy with a beard in the clouds. I happen not to myself. Martin Luther King, Jr., though, did say that even those who don't believe in God can understand the worthiness of a just cause, and sense that there is a moral arc to the universe. I do heartily believe (and this is not a stated Christian belief) that everyone resonates on some level with some basic understanding of ethical ideas.

I happen to think that the people who killed Matthew Shephard were terrified because movements for gay marriage were throwing into question their ability to lazily lean on a strict interpretation of Biblical authority . . . in particular relating to Leviticus 13:18 (or thereabouts). Rather than face the possibility that what was morally required of them (which can as easily be stated as, "what the ultimate moral arbiter of the universe [which can as easily be stated as "God"]" required of them), they chose to scream in an act of violent expression that they would not give up their current understanding.

This is not a Christian sentiment. It rubs rather hard in its particulars with "Thou shalt not kill," actually. Anyway, the specific debates aside, religions have a lot of resources for anyone who's curious about meaning, and a lot of tools for considering what is already meaningful to you that you don't understand yet.

Just some thoughts from the other side of a wall that both sides have been building for some time . . . a wall I find rather useless.
 
I really like what Mr. Valoran had to say actually.
I think he made as good of a point as the OP.
Thank you both^ ^ Good read.
 
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