Something to think about...

Celvantes

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Celvantes
Associated Press said:
JAKARTA, Indonesia — Hundreds of Christian theology students have been living in tents since a mob of angry Muslim neighbors stormed their campus last month wielding bamboo spears and hurling Molotov cocktails.

The incident comes amid growing concern that Indonesia's tradition of religious tolerance is under threat from Islamic hard-liners.
In talks since the attack, the Arastamar Evangelical School of Theology has reluctantly agreed to shut its 20-year-old campus in east Jakarta, accepting an offer this week to move to a small office building on the other side of the Indonesian capital.

Why should we be forced from our house while our attackers can walk freely?" asked the Rev. Matheus Mangentang, chairman of the 1,400-student school.

The government of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, which relies on the support of Islamic parties in Parliament, is struggling to balance deep Islamic traditions and a secular constitution. With elections coming next April, the government seems unwilling to defend religious minorities, lest it be portrayed as anti-Islamic in what is the world's most populous Muslim-majority country.

The July 25 attack, which injured 18 students, was the culmination of years of simmering tensions between the school and residents of the Kampung Pulo neighborhood.

Senny Manave, a spokesman for the Christian school, said complaints were received from neighbors about prayers and the singing of hymns, which they considered disturbing evangelical activity.

Several neighbors refused to comment, saying they feared that could further strain relations. A prominent banner, signed by scores of people, has been hung over an entrance to the neighborhood.

"We the community of Kampung Pulo demand the campus be closed and dissolved," it says.

The assault began around midnight, when students woke to the crash of stones falling on their dormitory roof as a voice over a loudspeaker at a nearby mosque cried "Allah Akbar," or "God is great" in Arabic.

The unidentified speaker urged residents to rise up against their "unwanted neighbors," said Sairin, the head of campus security, who goes by a single name.

The attack followed a claim that a student had broken into a resident's house, but police dismissed the charge.

Uneasy relations date to 2003, when neighbors began to protest the school's presence. Last year, residents set fire to shelters for construction workers to try to stop the campus from expanding deeper into the neighborhood. Some also questioned the legality of the school's permit.
Christian lawmaker Karol Daniel Kadang accused property speculators of provoking last month's incident to clear the land for more profitable use, after the school refused to sell out.

He also blamed the government for failing to build interfaith relations, which he and others believe are beginning to fray.

"People are still tolerant, but there is a growing suspicion among Muslims of others," said Prof. Franz Magnis-Suseno, a Jesuit priest who has lived in Indonesia for half a century.

He added that the police have failed to prevent both attacks on minorities and the forced closure of Christian churches and nontraditional mosques by mobs incited by radical Muslims.

"The state has some responsibility for this growing intolerance, namely by not upholding the law," he said.

A mob stormed a church service last Sunday in another east Jakarta neighborhood, forcing dozens of Christian worshippers to flee, said Jakarta Police Chief Col. Carlo Tewu. No arrests have been made.

Since being driven from campus, nearly 600 female students have been sleeping under suspended tarps at a nearby scout camp, where they had to dig trenches to keep water out during downpours. Classes are held with megaphones in the sweltering summer heat, under trees or the tarps. A similar number of male students live in a guesthouse. The remainder have returned to their families.

Food, water and school supplies are donated by church groups and community charities.

"We feel like refugees in our own country," said Dessy Nope, 19, a second-year student majoring in education. "How can you study here? I only followed 20 percent of my last lesson. It's difficult to concentrate."
Christians have not been the only targets for Muslim hard-liners, who this year set fire to mosques of a Muslim sect, Ahmadiyah, that they consider heretical.

In June, the government ordered members of the sect to return to mainstream Islam, sparking concern among activists who fear the state is interfering in matters of faith and caving in to the demands of radicals.
"We're living in a country where there are many religions, but the government cannot prevent the actions of fundamentalist groups," said Manave, the school spokesman. "The government cannot protect minorities."

Let's reverse this for a second. Say a college of Islamic studies was forcibly shut down by a mob of Southern Baptists in Mississippi. Picture that in your head for a second.

There would be riots and burned American flags worldwide. Every Muslim city from Saudi Arabia to Indonesia would be up in arms, and the leaders of the Arab world would be calling for retribution throughout the halls of government as well as the local mosques.

But when it's Christian students in a Muslim country... not even the Pope has the balls to condemn the action publicly.

Just food for thought.

I'm not advocating a modern crusade, but when you let bullies walk over you, they don't stop bullying... they push harder.
 
Eh, they're just Christians. (Just in case anyone is dense enough.. this is a bad joke, sorta..)
 
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Hm. That's really crappy. That's, unfortunately the kind of thing that reminds me that no matter how many "freedoms" our government takes away.. that kind of thing would never happen here. ..It sickens me that it happens at all.. It's odd how things like that are so normal in other countries. /sigh
 
that kind of thing would never happen here. ..
/sigh

It COULD happen here, in the States, that is. I'm not going to try to draw this out into a long political/religious debate, but, in the past few years, have you not noticed the gradual and continual revocation of the right to publicly display Christian beliefs?

A few years ago, several schools in New York were protested, and eventually forced to remove Nativity scenes around Christmas, yet, symbols of Judaism and Islam were allowed to be displayed around their respective holidays without protest.

Another instance was the ordered removal of the ten commandments from a public park.

These are just two recent instances, but there are literally dozens of others.

Each year, it becomes worse, as a misguided mass of stupidity feels that displaying of Christian symbols on public land or even the very thought of referring to God in a publicly accepted saying (the Pledge of Alliegance) is a violation of our Constitution's separation of religion and state.

Here, in the USA, if a similar instance occurred, there would be no backlash, at least, not politically, against a cult that committed such an act, regardless of public outrage. In fact, as our government likes to play the(sneer) "politically correct" game, I believe, the outcome/solution would end up being the same.
 
I remember back when 9/11 happened and I was in Pittsburgh...

Stories and News castings of all sorts of races going up to the muslim community and taking these muslims either seriously injurying them or destroying their property (cars, houses, etc). Even ones who felt mournful or who had american flags posted in their lawns, beat for days on end... You can't say it won't happen in the states because it has numoures times and throughout decades and centuries.
 
I remember back when 9/11 happened and I was in Pittsburgh...

Stories and News castings of all sorts of races going up to the muslim community and taking these muslims either seriously injurying them or destroying their property (cars, houses, etc). Even ones who felt mournful or who had american flags posted in their lawns, beat for days on end... You can't say it won't happen in the states because it has numoures times and throughout decades and centuries.

This is very true. As much as the USA preaches about tolerance and whatnot, look at how every few years, a certain group of people (ethnic or religious) are getting picked on by the general population. Back when the country was formed, it was native americans, then blacks, then mexicans, then irish, then catholics, then back to blacks, then arabs, and now mexicans again.

As great as this country is, it is also a great let down. This country was built primarily on racism and intolerance. It sucks to see this happen abroad, but I think we have to look at the bigger picture here. If this action were to get decried by the western powers then we would only see more violence that our army boys would have to deal with.
 
This is very true. As much as the USA preaches about tolerance and whatnot, look at how every few years, a certain group of people (ethnic or religious) are getting picked on by the general population. Back when the country was formed, it was native americans, then blacks, then mexicans, then irish, then catholics, then back to blacks, then arabs, and now mexicans again.

As great as this country is, it is also a great let down. This country was built primarily on racism and intolerance. It sucks to see this happen abroad, but I think we have to look at the bigger picture here. If this action were to get decried by the western powers then we would only see more violence that our army boys would have to deal with.

this is all based on the principle that opressing another human being makes oneself feel better, nothing more, nothing less, there will always be opression in the world because there will always be intolerant assholes who walk around with an undeserving sense of entitlement. there will always be some asshole or group of assholes who will oppress you because your fat, black, hispanic, white, white trash, chinese, jewish, christian, skinny, tall, hairy, smelly, bald, southern, canadian, pothead, slow, mentally challenged, smoker, handicapped, disformed, gay, straight, smart, dumb, male, female, tomboy, jock, prep, goth, emo...it doesn't matter, someone will find a flaw within another human being and make fun of them for it.

and it's sad really
 
This is very true. As much as the USA preaches about tolerance and whatnot, look at how every few years, a certain group of people (ethnic or religious) are getting picked on by the general population. Back when the country was formed, it was native americans, then blacks, then mexicans, then irish, then catholics, then back to blacks, then arabs, and now mexicans again.
I gotta disagree with the bolded part. I don't think anyone is picking on the mexicans, they're just trying to do something about the "crime" they commited. Granted its not a huge offense and they're doing it to make a better life for themselves, but if draining money from our local economies and hospitals (here in So Cal. at least), they come here and and dont even want to be a part of our country, just turn their areas into little versions of country they came from.

I don't have a problem with most of the Mexicans that I work with because they speak english well for the most part and are hard workers, but I know some of them came here illegally. Their community leaders don't even want you to call them illegals, but undocumented. Thats stupid imo. This nonsense of "OMG whos gonna pick our produce and clean our houses? Just leave them alone." when these companies can pay another american to do the job, even if the price of lettuce goes up because they have to pay more in wages, is just crazy.

Sorry if I went way off topic.All the other groups you mentioned plus others I agree with what you said, but saying Mexicans are being picked on when a large portion of their community (not all, i understand) is breaking the law is just wrong.
 
I gotta disagree with the bolded part. I don't think anyone is picking on the mexicans, they're just trying to do something about the "crime" they commited. Granted its not a huge offense and they're doing it to make a better life for themselves, but if draining money from our local economies and hospitals (here in So Cal. at least), they come here and and dont even want to be a part of our country, just turn their areas into little versions of country they came from.

I don't have a problem with most of the Mexicans that I work with because they speak english well for the most part and are hard workers, but I know some of them came here illegally. Their community leaders don't even want you to call them illegals, but undocumented. Thats stupid imo. This nonsense of "OMG whos gonna pick our produce and clean our houses? Just leave them alone." when these companies can pay another american to do the job, even if the price of lettuce goes up because they have to pay more in wages, is just crazy.

Sorry if I went way off topic.All the other groups you mentioned plus others I agree with what you said, but saying Mexicans are being picked on when a large portion of their community (not all, i understand) is breaking the law is just wrong.

At the risk of derailing this thread again I must speak up on that: In what way are illegal mexican immigrants draining the economy? First of all, the majority pay taxes into the government, second, they spend money in the area that they live in, which in turn goes back into the economy, third of all, as if people werent complaining about the price of food as it is, you think people wont complain more when all of a sudden a head of lettuce cost $5 instead of $1 because they have to pay a legal worker at least minimum wage to pick the produce? Even with getting paid minimum wage, how easy would it be to find someone willing to spend hours out in the blazing sun picking produce? Its what people dont really think about. Just watch, IF somehow the government manages to send the majority of illegals back to their native country, watch how right away the government is going to allow them to come back when the backlash of the increase in the price of goods slaps them in the face.

Back on topic: Then again, muslim hard-liners never look at both sides of an issue. They like to cry foul when their precious prophet Muhammed is made fun of or insulted in any way, and yet they can raze a christian school and church and its perfectly fine? Like i have said before, just nuke that pimple called the middle east/southern asia off the face of the earth and be done with it sheesh.
 
At the risk of derailing this thread again I must speak up on that: In what way are illegal mexican immigrants draining the economy? First of all, the majority pay taxes into the government, second, they spend money in the area that they live in, which in turn goes back into the economy, third of all, as if people werent complaining about the price of food as it is, you think people wont complain more when all of a sudden a head of lettuce cost $5 instead of $1 because they have to pay a legal worker at least minimum wage to pick the produce? Even with getting paid minimum wage, how easy would it be to find someone willing to spend hours out in the blazing sun picking produce? Its what people dont really think about. Just watch, IF somehow the government manages to send the majority of illegals back to their native country, watch how right away the government is going to allow them to come back when the backlash of the increase in the price of goods slaps them in the face.
I gotta speak to the bolded parts. First many of illegals take on jobs where they are paid under the table in cash. No taxes taken out. If you think I'm wrong all I can say is stop by the local home depot at 6 in the morning. I know many people who use their services in the construction field. Second, those who are getting paid through a buisness are often using fake or stolen SSN's meaning identity theft is all the more reampant. Third, illegals generally dont have health insurance. I broke my ankle and had to got to the emergency room at 10 at night. The nurse told me it would be 8 hrs before a doctor could see me. When I asked her why so long (I have health insurance mind you) she said it was because people come into the ER w/out insurance because their child has a cough or they don't feel well. I can't remember off the top of my head how many ERs in Southern California have closed in the past couple of years because the money being spent far excedes the money coming in. Sure that my be from poor management for our health care system in the US, but when there are 11 million illegals (to be very conservative. Source: http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0603/charts.immigration/frameset.exclude.html?eref=yahoo) in, for the most part, a couple of states that says quite a bit to me. We have our own poor and under privelged here, we shouldnt have to/cant really afford to take care of our neighbors to the south too.

As to the second point there will always be somone to take those jobs no matter hard/labor intensive they are. And if it costs more (no where near a jump from $1 to $5) then so be it. Americans citizens for the most part will not be sending a good portion of that money to their family in another country, but will be spending it here, thus more money for everyone as things go.
 
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