Stop buying Ulli stones, you *#%*tards

delsus said:
If the RMT do not hack (yeah right) buying the stone is not a problem, but if they botted it etc then should not buy it.

Most things you buy on AH are from RMT, even basic items now.
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Stfu you redundant, blind, ignorant waste of this sites bandwidth. I wish jesus would shoot you with that piece of machinery. I can not stand seeing you post. God just leave. Welcome to PAGES ago and Veresko's much much better stated post concerning the above.
 
Mattaru said:
Stfu you redundant, blind, ignorant waste of this sites bandwidth. I wish jesus would shoot you with that piece of machinery. I can not stand seeing you post. God just leave. Welcome to PAGES ago and Veresko's much much better stated post concerning the above.
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RMT own Uli so if a LS buys a stone from them they are bad, if a MNK buys a H kote from AH who is probally selling it? RMT.

Alot of things are sold by RMT, but only when they buy a stone some one will get bitched at?
 
Mattaru said:
Stfu you redundant, blind, ignorant waste of this sites bandwidth. I wish jesus would shoot you with that piece of machinery. I can not stand seeing you post. God just leave. Welcome to PAGES ago and Veresko's much much better stated post concerning the above.
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Please stop quoting people from my ignore list.
 
delsus said:
RMT own Uli so if a LS buys a stone from them they are bad, if a MNK buys a H kote from AH who is probally selling it? RMT.

Alot of things are sold by RMT, but only when they buy a stone some one will get bitched at?
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Hey, I told you to stop posting. Welcome to Veresko's post pages ago that already brought this up. You are being re-dun-dant.

Moreover:
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1478129
 
I don't even understand why you still post here Blazn. No one likes you, no one respects your opinion, no one even reads what you post other than for sheer entertainment(provided they can even -read- your mindless dribble). Seriously, just get out. You're hurting everyone, including yourself, by posting your mind-numbing garbage here.
 
I guess I'd say I don't hold people to higher moral standards based on their accomplishments which are skill based. However when people come on QCDN and judge others then I will examine if their expressed views are hypocritical or not.

---of course I'm only talking about 3 members of Kaizen, who are not representative of the entire shell by displaying their personal views. The others have either posted factual data without throwing in their personal views(Almaut, Kisada, Meastosa), or were wise enough not to comment on things that may later make them hypocritical(Nasya).

But the members going around on Guilty-by-association rants did have it blow up in their face. Mostly I'd point at Courtney who is particulary judgemental, to the point that she'd not only judge what people do but decide to make up bullshit about their motivations despite having any information on the matter, simply to make them look as bad as possible.

But to defend the rest who were clever enough not to put themselves in that position....

I'd say that the concept of RMT usage is purely a personal choice. Just as it's someone choice to buy gil, sell their account when they quit or trade in game currency for RMT items - it's a personal choice by a linkshell - if they'd rather play the game legitamately or if they'd rather play the parts they'd enjoy.

You don't have to respect their accomplishments if you see them as lessened by using RMT to get ahead, and certainly them doing it doesn't force you to do it as well. Rather, you need to see that it's a question of taste not a function of morality - just like any other victimless crime*

It's important to remember that the game isn't always competitive, so someone's advantage doesn't always lead to someone else's disadvantage. Their Kirin is their Kirin, if they pop it using RMT items or if they don't do it at all, if they have one less Osode it doesn't really affect you very much.

Morality doesn't come into place until you talk about using tactics that directly harm other players, such as using a bot to claim Fafnir, which directly harms all your rival linkshells.

Of course if the RMT use those tactics, you can say buying from them is an extention of that... but guilt-by-association is so last week. The entire definition of "guilt by association" is just a reference to a logical flaw.

*In most victimless crimes, you can show an increased likelyhood of someone to suffer as a result, or a general sink in the community... but these aren't direct results of the crime.

Would just like to edit in here... am deeply disappointed in how people's regular attitudes change based on who is being accused. Normally, I'm the ONLY person arguing in defense of someone who violates a stigma, and when they do it I find myself surrounded with people who for any other LS would be down their throats. It's kind of sad. But who knows, maybe my concept of relative morality is just becoming mainstream now. =p
 
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Random thought:

1.5 years ago I bought my haku cluster. I didn't level up alchemy to 90+, nor did i farm the 6-8 eyes needed for the synth (which could have taken anywhere between 5-10 hours easily). I bought it from a bazaar, and I really wouldn't know if that bazaar was involved in RMT. Am I ignorant? Probably. By standards writen above, I didn't earn my optical hat because I didn't camp 5-10 hours worth of time and spend a couple million gil to level alchemy to 90+ for my Rare/EX item. I did pop the Haku, killed the bastard, and sure enough I got my hat. I even asked Kisada to help tank it because I had no Ninjas in my LS at the time. I guess I didn't earn it, right?

Now, apply the same concept to basis of this thread, and it fails. The effort used to make the gil to purchase the stone is equivalant to the market value of the stone. Who cares where it's from? It's there. You don't have the gil? Camp it. Everything has a price.

Don't get me wrong, I do NOT condone RMT activities. In all honesty, what my LS does with gil is our business, and it's Kaizen's business for what they do with the gil they EARN.

Who are any of you to make such comments? I bet you all have optical hats, a couple mages have rostrum pumps, maybe purchased imperial currency from the AH to get that nice Wal. Turban because u didn't get enough xp from imperial standing? You all know very well that some of these items on the AH or in bazaars may very well be involved in RMT activities. Ignorant? Probably.

But whatever, I'm just one person.
 
Saying that the shells that buy their stones would otherwise be camping Ulli is fine. If they're not botting (hah) or pos hacking (hah) or a combination of the 2 (hah hah) then they don't overly concern me at Ulli. It's a huge spawn area, and quite frankly an awful lot of luck is involved in claiming him.

Which is, of course, why these groups would rather buy stones than camp them.

And Fire, I agree your choice to use the services of RMT is purely your own. The ramifications of that choice, however, affect the entire server. When someone buys Ulli stones, that encourages RMT to camp more Ullis, and given that RMT are a hell of a lot more likely to use hacks to claim... You get the idea. On certain items we don't have a huge choice, RMT dominate a few select drops and on the AH it's impossible to tell who is selling them to you. But buying bazaared pop sets is just low.

As for Guilt-by-Association, what's wrong with it? As I pointed out in Mattaru's ethics of botting thread, if I found out that my shell botted, I'd leave. As would a number of other people most likely. If you profit from someone else's crime, that makes you guilty by association. An accomplice to their crime, if you will. If your spouse brought home a car for you, and you knew it was stolen, when the cops came for them they'd pick you up too. Guilt-by-association only blows up in your face when you're a fucking hypocrite.
 
FleistLoC said:
Random thought:

1.5 years ago I bought my haku cluster. I didn't level up alchemy to 90+, nor did i farm the 6-8 eyes needed for the synth (which could have taken anywhere between 5-10 hours easily). I bought it from a bazaar, and I really wouldn't know if that bazaar was involved in RMT. Am I ignorant? Probably. By standards writen above, I didn't earn my optical hat because I didn't camp 5-10 hours worth of time and spend a couple million gil to level alchemy to 90+ for my Rare/EX item. I did pop the Haku, killed the bastard, and sure enough I got my hat. I even asked Kisada to help tank it because I had no Ninjas in my LS at the time. I guess I didn't earn it, right?

Now, apply the same concept to basis of this thread, and it fails. The effort used to make the gil to purchase the stone is equivalant to the market value of the stone. Who cares where it's from? It's there. You don't have the gil? Camp it. Everything has a price.

Don't get me wrong, I do NOT condone RMT activities. In all honesty, what my LS does with gil is our business, and it's Kaizen's business for what they do with the gil they EARN.

Who are any of you to make such comments? I bet you all have optical hats, a couple mages have rostrum pumps, maybe purchased imperial currency from the AH to get that nice Wal. Turban because u didn't get enough xp from imperial standing? You all know very well that some of these items on the AH or in bazaars may very well be involved in RMT activities. Ignorant? Probably.

But whatever, I'm just one person.
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That's kind of the definition of an illogical slippery slope-esque argument right there. Because you were ignorant of if a bazaar you got a cluster was RMT or not then you conclude nobody can be blamed for buying from RMT even if they know who they are? You can defend yourself on a case by case basis to disassociate yourself or you can show that in general the concept of RMT is not immoral but you can't isolate the morality of buying from RMT with the morality of RMT in general.
 
Raesvelg said:
Saying that the shells that buy their stones would otherwise be camping Ulli is fine. If they're not botting (hah) or pos hacking (hah) or a combination of the 2 (hah hah) then they don't overly concern me at Ulli. It's a huge spawn area, and quite frankly an awful lot of luck is involved in claiming him.

Which is, of course, why these groups would rather buy stones than camp them.

And Fire, I agree your choice to use the services of RMT is purely your own. The ramifications of that choice, however, affect the entire server. When someone buys Ulli stones, that encourages RMT to camp more Ullis, and given that RMT are a hell of a lot more likely to use hacks to claim... You get the idea. On certain items we don't have a huge choice, RMT dominate a few select drops and on the AH it's impossible to tell who is selling them to you. But buying bazaared pop sets is just low.

As for Guilt-by-Association, what's wrong with it? As I pointed out in Mattaru's ethics of botting thread, if I found out that my shell botted, I'd leave. As would a number of other people most likely. If you profit from someone else's crime, that makes you guilty by association. An accomplice to their crime, if you will. If your spouse brought home a car for you, and you knew it was stolen, when the cops came for them they'd pick you up too. Guilt-by-association only blows up in your face when you're a fucking hypocrite.
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The trouble with the guilty by association ethos is that it says things that are inherantly not true. Like in your example of the wife coming home with a stolen car. You are guilty of being tolerant of a wife who steals cars. You aren't guilty of stealing a car. Just like people who buy from RMT are tolerant of purchasing from someone who uses POS hacks, it doesn't mean they'd do it themselves. It's important because people being tolerant of wrong-doing aren't always wrong-doers themselves.
 
Firestreak said:
The trouble with the guilty by association ethos is that it says things that are inherantly not true. Like in your example of the wife coming home with a stolen car. You are guilty of being tolerant of a wife who steals cars. You aren't guilty of stealing a car. Just like people who buy from RMT are tolerant of purchasing from someone who uses POS hacks, it doesn't mean they'd do it themselves. It's important because people being tolerant of wrong-doing aren't always wrong-doers themselves.
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While I agree with you mostly Fire, I'd look at it a bit differently. To the car example: You shouldn't be punished for the full length of stealing a car, but being "Tolerant of a wife who steals car" should be punished to a lesser extent. Being tolerant of wrong-doing is still being a wrong-doer, just to a lesser extent, is how I would word it.
 
It's an independant action. If there's a specific rule against it then you're guilty of violating that rule. Until those rules exist only the people who directly cheat are directly wrong. Won't argue there's a stigma invovled on purely associating with RMT but there's no rule against it.
 
I've been gone a while and it seems like the RMT have gotten even more of a say in the way we play the game. And as much complaining as I've heard it seems like we haven't really learned who the true enemies in this game are right now. It's not really the beastmen. It's RMT. What you need is a war; REAL players vs. RMT. RMT use the game like an ATM and they're getting more sophisticated at it. And not only are you paying monthly for the game you're basically working (in time spent) for RMT if your gil ends up in their hands. Think about it...

Why don't you get a RMT business card if you're going to buy from them because if you spend 8hrs to make x amount of gil and you buy anything from them at that price you have just worked 8hrs for your RMT employers. And it is supply & demand. The more you give in the higher the demand will be and the more the RMT will do to supply that demand. And if you're going to buy the things you should be earning by actually playing the game, why even play? RMT drives inflation and at the same time they make it harder for you to make gil. Anyone who buys gil or items (same thing) should not be considered a real player. Just another enemy making the game harder than it was ever designed to be.
 
why don't we just let them camp there and anywhere else for that matter, I enjoy coutercamping and competing with them, i especialy link it when they use bt to out voke us and warp the code of the game to enhance theri abilities.

I have seen the 100 yard voke and it was especialy awsome when it was used against me,

I say let them do what they do who cares it they break all the game rules just to make a buck, who does it hurt? I dont mind the game economy getting worse

do any of you care if everything worth somthing goes up and extra mil in gil

why would we want to stop them from camping the sky items they might even raise the prices of thoes just to hurt the economy even more which i think is cool

Let the RMTs be free

(odvious sarcasim)

think about it and reflect
 
Arkangel said:
why don't we just let them camp there and anywhere else for that matter, I enjoy coutercamping and competing with them, i especialy link it when they use bt to out voke us and warp the code of the game to enhance theri abilities.

I have seen the 100 yard voke and it was especialy awsome when it was used against me,

I say let them do what they do who cares it they break all the game rules just to make a buck, who does it hurt? I dont mind the game economy getting worse

do any of you care if everything worth somthing goes up and extra mil in gil

why would we want to stop them from camping the sky items they might even raise the prices of thoes just to hurt the economy even more which i think is cool

Let the RMTs be free

(odvious sarcasim)

think about it and reflect
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For reference, a rherotical statement such as this, in an attempt to cause reflection, tends to have a more impressive effect if written a bit more sophisticated. Just a suggestion.
 
Random thought, am I the only one that finds it hilarious to have heated arguments about RMT under the patronage of a very big, carefully google-selected link that sells "Cheap FFXI Gil" ?

One would think the paladins of anti-RMT action would be forced to ritually disembowel themselves after noticing they are posting in a thread proudly sponsored by the enemy >.>
 
Rommie said:
Random thought, am I the only one that finds it hilarious to have heated arguments about RMT under the patronage of a very big, carefully google-selected link that sells "Cheap FFXI Gil" ?

One would think the paladins of anti-RMT action would be forced to ritually disembowel themselves after noticing they are posting in a thread proudly sponsored by the enemy >.>
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This happens regularly, metaphorically, anyways.
 
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