Stop buying Ulli stones, you *#%*tards

[Uzor]

I'm not talking about what happens after you buy them, absolutely no one is. That isn't even the arguement at hand. I know there are less autumnstones, and those actually disappear upon each use. But we are talking about how there is no way to know who you are buying from albeit AH or bazaar. Either place knowing the person whom you are going to purchase the said item from is impossible. What happens after it is bought is irrelevent to this arguement.

My argument wasn't what happened after you buy them. Its the fact that while yes, both are anonymous, its a play of statistics. When the chance of buying an autumnstone from an RMT are much greater then that of buying another item from an RMT, you can't compare them. In the same way you can't compare a flower to a tree just because both grow.

If autumnstones were sellable on the AH, it would be considered just as bad to buy them from the AH as it would be from bazaars. I do believe no one argued that point. But the chance of buying a RMT sold o. kote is much smaller then that of a RMT sold autumnstone, which have been the whole argument about why the AH can't be considered bazaaring autumnstones.

I only mentioned what happends after you buy items to show that autumnstones dissapear upon use, but o. kotes stay on the server.

 

[Blazeoffury]

Past is the key word there ever since they change the way uli spawn that all changed.

In your mind it changed. You just don't want to believe that other people camp such a wanted item just to sell it, and that they are legit players. Whyd o they camp it for money? The same reason the gilsellers do, there is an open market for that item at this time, from both Japanese and English speaking players. People still sell them since the update, quit being so gullible and realize the acutal facts of this reality.

Fact. Legit people sell stones.

Fact. People buy stones.

Fact. RMT sell stones.

Fact. People buy those stones too.

Fact. Both legit and RMT's stones are sold in bazaars.

Fact. There is no way to know the difference in the bazaar.

 

[Blazeoffury]

My argument wasn't what happened after you buy them. Its the fact that while yes, both are anonymous, its a play of statistics. When the chance of buying an autumnstone from an RMT are much greater then that of buying another item from an RMT, you can't compare them. In the same way you can't compare a flower to a tree just because both grow.

If autumnstones were sellable on the AH, it would be considered just as bad to buy them from the AH as it would be from bazaars. I do believe no one argued that point. But the chance of buying a RMT sold o. kote is much smaller then that of a RMT sold autumnstone, which have been the whole argument about why the AH can't be considered bazaaring autumnstones.

I only mentioned what happends after you buy items to show that autumnstones dissapear upon use, but o. kotes stay on the server.

Yes there are some a very high % on who is selling it. We all know RMT hold a vastly higher % of the autumnstones on sell then the legit ones. BUT we have no way to conclusively tell the difference in the level one bazaars. There is no way to know if it is a RMT or a LEgit stone. You even admitted there is no difference but a higher % chance of Autumnstone being an RMT one. Yes, it makes it a harder gamble, Kaizen is willing to take that gamble, others are not. That is the difference between Kaizen and everyone else, they gamble with the harder %.

Because both are anonymous, and that is the point people are arguing, I can compare them Uzor. People were saying that there is no reason you shouldn't be able to tell a seller bazaar from a legit bazaar, when if they have a Level 1 mule with a decent name how are you going to tell the difference? I'm not comparing flowers to trees, I'm comparing an Oak Tree to a smaller Coniferous Tree. I'm comparing how there is no way to know who you are buying from because in all reality there is no way to know.

 

[hellstorm]

My argument wasn't what happened after you buy them. Its the fact that while yes, both are anonymous, its a play of statistics. When the chance of buying an autumnstone from an RMT are much greater then that of buying another item from an RMT, you can't compare them. In the same way you can't compare a flower to a tree just because both grow.

If autumnstones were sellable on the AH, it would be considered just as bad to buy them from the AH as it would be from bazaars. I do believe no one argued that point. But the chance of buying a RMT sold o. kote is much smaller then that of a RMT sold autumnstone, which have been the whole argument about why the AH can't be considered bazaaring autumnstones.

I agree with uzor if you wanted a compare the b hide was little closer. o kote way out in left field. As for b hide there so many places to get one. ks 99, kb, byrakko all in which are camped more by na/jp player then rmt

 

[Uzor]

In your mind it changed. You just don't want to believe that other people camp such a wanted item just to sell it, and that they are legit players. Whyd o they camp it for money? The same reason the gilsellers do, there is an open market for that item at this time, from both Japanese and English speaking players. People still sell them since the update, quit being so gullible and realize the acutal facts of this reality.

You contradict several arguments with that statement. I do believe your "side" have mentioned that camping the autumnstone just for gil is rather useless. I do believe legit players could think of better ways to spend 10+ hours at a chance of claiming a NM for a 2mil profit.

But to each his own, right?

 

[Zalbag]

o. kotes never decrease unless people drop them or the account gets banned. That means about 365 o. kotes gets added to the server every year, and that's assuming 1 drop every day, which is unlikely with a pop time of 24 hours. That means that every time someone sell it, the likelyhood that its a gilseller decrease aswell. Second-hand sales, no matter how much you argue that it helps the gil sellers, helps them in no way.

Your acting as if kote has a 50% drop. Or even a 10% drop rate. I'm 0/5 on it, my friend is 0/12. Yes some may go 1/1 but i'm guessing that is pretty rare case. Kotes dont just go out of circulation from being dropped or account banning. I can't count the number of people that have quit, and no not every player that quits sells all their gear or hands it off to someone else.

It's true there are far more kote's in circulation then stones but its also true that there are alot more rmt selling kote's then legit players. Your arguing that selling in bazaars and AH is different but your only defense is there are more kote's in circulation then stones. Just because there is more of an item doesn't mean the % chance of getting a none rmt is any less.

 

[Uzor]

Yes there are some a very high % on who is selling it. We all know RMT hold a vastly higher % of the autumnstones on sell then the legit ones. BUT we have no way to conclusively tell the difference in the level one bazaars. There is no way to know if it is a RMT or a LEgit stone. You even admitted there is no difference but a higher % chance of Autumnstone being an RMT one. Yes, it makes it a harder gamble, Kaizen is willing to take that gamble, others are not. That is the difference between Kaizen and everyone else, they gamble with the harder %.

I do believe I personally said I don't care where Kaizen get their stones. Its their gil, their money spent on the game. They can do with it how they like. What I don't agree with is how you compare the bazaared autumnstones with AH sold o. kotes and other items.

 

[Bajaratt]

To sum it up, there's a difference between buying bazaared Autumnstones and o. kotes.

o. kotes never decrease unless people drop them or the account gets banned. That means about 365 o. kotes gets added to the server every year, and that's assuming 1 drop every day, which is unlikely with a pop time of 24 hours. That means that every time someone sell it, the likelyhood that its a gilseller decrease aswell. Second-hand sales, no matter how much you argue that it helps the gil sellers, helps them in no way.

However, in the Autumnstone case, there's a set ammount of about 700 every year, assuming 2 drop every 1,5 days. That means that everytime an autumn stone is used, there's 1 less on the server. And since gilsellers have only been active in sky for about half a year, that's only about 350 stones that have dropped total. Out of those, sky LS's and gilsellers have popped Byakko and wiped. You can't assume that people hold on to all of those Autumnstones all the time, which you seem to do, as proven by this argument:



You fail to realize that Kaizen isn't the only shell doing sky. Kaizen pops 10 Byakkos, that's 350-5 (I make it 350-5 for half a year, sicne that's the time gilsellers have been active in sky). God knows how many bought by that other LS mentioned in this thread, and then several which are bought by Japanese LS's, and not to forget those which are legally claimed by other LS's which they have popped.

You also assume everyone holds on to them and pop them at the same time, to make your own arguments look better. To make i clearer, I'll present some better numbers.

Let's say pop time is 14 hours. I know people can camp in for god knows how many hours without seeing him pop. I've camped him for well over 10 hours without seeing him pop several times.

That's 12 stones every week. I'm sure linkshells claim them legally to pop, so let's say linkshells claim 6 of them over the gilsellers. That's probably being generous, although I do admit I haven't been in sky for hellova long time, so it might be more.

That's 6 stones each week that gilsellers can sell. And with BDS buying a few, and I'm sure JP buying a few, that's not a whole lot of stones available. A total of 12 stones i ncirculation per week is far less then the perhaps 700+ kotes every week in circulation.

Fuma Kyahans work the same way, and as for b. hides etc. those drop from other things then only 1 mob. So the circulation of those items are also larger then you make it out to be.

Whe nthe chance of buying an item from a gilseller is 50-75% per week, and the chance of buying fuma kyahans, o. kote, damascene cloth is maybe 5-10%, I wouldn't compare them as 1 and the same.

Ok, so your argument is that because the Autumn stone is rarer and essentially consumable(Use it to pop byakko and it's gone), you can't compare it to straight armor/weapons because those can be resold by legit players who bought them? If I have that correct, it's an infinitely better point than the pathetic "you know who every mule is" argument. I'm sorry I missed this before, it would have been a much better discussion than with idiots like hellstorm repeating the same bullshit over and over like he wins a prize every time he mentions it.

I'll agree that it's more likely to buy from a gil seller than a legit player, in part due to the fact that you can't resell the stone once you're done with it. People use the items dominated by RMT as an example of how likely you are to buy from a gil seller for a lot of your items. I don't think your percentages are remotely accurate, however, since the RMT sell every drop they get while legit players tend to hold onto the gear rather than sell it.

The gil sellers sell other consumables though, which I guess would be a better analogy when you look at the inability to resell the items you buy. The RMT are also probably selling other pop items(fomor codex, HKTK clusters, etc...) as well, it would make sense given that selling pop items can be profitable as Ulli has shown.

You still have no idea who the mule is, so it's still a gamble if they're RMT or not. Earlier, I gave the example of Bautan, who I buy food from occasionally. I have no idea who they really are, but they've been selling good food for good prices. They could easily be RMT and I would never know about it, just like with the autumn stones. Food isn't the best example since it's not in such limited supply as a pop item, but it's still a consumable that could possibly be RMT.

Plus, as has been stated, they're not buying stones all in one night, but over a period of months. So while it's not common for legit players to win a stone and sell it, over months it will happen a few times, and they're trying to buy during those few times.

I don't see where I'm assuming that people are holding onto the stones, or even the relevance of that point, because when they pop byakko is pretty irrelevant to when they buy the stone.

 

[Uzor]

Your acting as if kote has a 50% drop. Or even a 10% drop rate. I'm 0/5 on it, my friend is 0/12. Yes some may go 1/1 but i'm guessing that is pretty rare case. Kotes dont just go out of circulation from being dropped or account banning. I can't count the number of people that have quit, and no not every player that quits sells all their gear or hands it off to someone else.

It's true there are far more kote's in circulation then stones but its also true that there are alot more rmt selling kote's then legit players. Your arguing that selling in bazaars and AH is different but your only defense is there are more kote's in circulation then stones. Just because there is more of an item doesn't mean the % chance of getting a none rmt is any less.

No, I act as if 1 drop per day. I mentioned 1 per day. With a 1 hour spawn time, that's aproximately 24 spawns per day, or roughly 1/24 drop rate.

Edit: and I never argued that selling from bazaars is different from AH. I even mentioned in my post that there's no difference between selling an autumnstone from bazaars and AH. Also changed from 4% to 1/24 since I'm tired and probably calculated wrong.

 

[hellstorm]

In these times if you are buying from unfilmilar bazaar then maybe should not be buying at all. Better safe then sorry? You say legit people camp then would it not be practical to set some set of deal with them? they provide the stones, you provide the $?

 

[Blazeoffury]

You contradict several arguments with that statement. I do believe your "side" have mentioned that camping the autumnstone just for gil is rather useless. I do believe legit players could think of better ways to spend 10+ hours at a chance of claiming a NM for a 2mil profit.

But to each his own, right?

Meh I'm not on any side for buying or not buying stones. I am arguing the fact that arguing that if you can claim ignorance on the AH, then you have just as much right to claim ignorance from a bazaar, yes the % is high you will buy a RMT stone, but there is also a % chance that you will buy from RMT on many crafting materials, and rare equipment.

 

[Bajaratt]

In these times if you are buying from unfilmilar bazaar then maybe should not be buying at all. Better safe then sorry? You say legit people camp then would it not be practical to set some set of deal with them? they provide the stones, you provide the $?

If you want to be "better safe than sorry" then you can't buy ANYTHING in this game unless it's from someone you know or an NPC. That means no food, no gear, no oils/powders, no tools, nothing. Basically you have to completely gimp yourself just to prove a point. People try to minimize the chance that they buy from RMT, which you can't do on the AH but you can do with a bazaar; therefore bazaar is actually better in terms of safety from not buying from RMT.

 

[Uzor]

but there is also a % chance that you will buy from RMT on many crafting materials, and rare equipment.

Yes. But many other crafting items have more sources then just the one RMT are dominating

 

[Blazeoffury]

Yes. But many other crafting items have more sources then just the one RMT are dominating

While that is true, the % is still there.

I'm going to party my ninja now, i'll come back to this thread afterwards.

 

[Uzor]

While that is true, the % is still there.

I'm going to party my ninja now, i'll come back to this thread afterwards.

Yes, I do believe I mentioned that there's always a chance you'll but from RMT

 

[hellstorm]

Your acting as if kote has a 50% drop. Or even a 10% drop rate. I'm 0/5 on it, my friend is 0/12. Yes some may go 1/1 but i'm guessing that is pretty rare case. Kotes dont just go out of circulation from being dropped or account banning. I can't count the number of people that have quit, and no not every player that quits sells all their gear or hands it off to someone else.

It's true there are far more kote's in circulation then stones but its also true that there are alot more rmt selling kote's then legit players. Your arguing that selling in bazaars and AH is different but your only defense is there are more kote's in circulation then stones. Just because there is more of an item doesn't mean the % chance of getting a none rmt is any less.

there only 1 possibly 2 that camps okote now. wwehe uses a pocketsnifer she stands sams spot and right before the mobs spawn she will flee dash to nm spawn point. I can't count the number of times ive put a gm call in for her. her mule tunini which I also put a gm report on several times. Hell we would not even be having the thread if SE would do there dam job.

 

[Bajaratt]

there only 1 possibly 2 that camps okote now. wwehe uses a pocketsnifer she stands sams spot and right before the mobs spawn she will flee dash to nm spawn point. I can't count the number of times ive put a gm call in for her. her mule tunini which I also put a gm report on several times. Hell we would not even be having the thread if SE would do there dam job.

It doesn't matter if there's only 1 or 2 botting(still just as many claims I bet), they're still selling every single kote that drops, so there are far more RMT sales than there are sales from legit players.

 

[Firestreak]

Meh I'm not on any side for buying or not buying stones. I am arguing the fact that arguing that if you can claim ignorance on the AH, then you have just as much right to claim ignorance from a bazaar, yes the % is high you will buy a RMT stone, but there is also a % chance that you will buy from RMT on many crafting materials, and rare equipment.

The Auction House is not the same as a Bazaar for a multitude of reasons.

The problem with the auction house scenario is that at the end of the day, automnstones can't be put up on AH. They weren't designed to flow through the economy as easily as, for example,low level armor. The designation that stones can't be anonymously sold means that you do have control over which sellers you use. Rather than seeing it as an inconvieniance that you have to sort through Bazaars to buy your Autumnstones, if you're truly against RMT, you should be thankful that you have the opportunity to avoid buying from them.

You can't avoid buying from anyone at the auction house because the auction house is setup in a system that is designed to do nothing except move items around. Even if you want to avoid buying kote's from gilsellers you are unable to avoid them and jump to the honest players because the gilseller transation will be automatically queued if they're selling the item for cheaper.

Now in a fictional world, you can make the argument that since in this fictional world where you can put Autumnstones on the auction-house that you'd see it as legit to buy off the auction house (althought I'm sure there'd be people in this fictional world saying you're supporting RMT doing it there too). However, you can't apply it to this world where you CAN decide to buy or not buy based on seller. Anymore than I can imagine a fictional world where we don't know who our linkshell members are, and use it to justify being in a linkshell with gilsellers here.

And PS: If I did care about RMT, i wouldn't buy Kote's off AH. As far as I know the only RMT dominated items I own is Serket Ring which I got off a bazaar and cassie earring which I got off the NM myself.

 

[hellstorm]

If you want to be "better safe than sorry" then you can't buy ANYTHING in this game unless it's from someone you know or an NPC. That means no food, no gear, no oils/powders, no tools, nothing. Basically you have to completely gimp yourself just to prove a point. People try to minimize the chance that they buy from RMT, which you can't do on the AH but you can do with a bazaar; therefore bazaar is actually better in terms of safety from not buying from RMT.

Again bazaar you see face to face. For point of reference I never bought okote because it over run by wwehe and that be conflict of interest. The % chance of food being rmt is rare. I make my own tools. Ya I buy oil/powders but again the number of legit to rmt is profoundly more. Chance of buying uli stone from a bazaar if profoundly high.

 

[Blazeoffury]

The Auction House is not the same as a Bazaar for a multitude of reasons.

The problem with the auction house scenario is that at the end of the day, automnstones can't be put up on AH. They weren't designed to flow through the economy as easily as, for example,low level armor. The designation that stones can't be anonymously sold means that you do have control over which sellers you use. Rather than seeing it as an inconvieniance that you have to sort through Bazaars to buy your Autumnstones, if you're truly against RMT, you should be thankful that you have the opportunity to avoid buying from them.

You can't avoid buying from anyone at the auction house because the auction house is setup in a system that is designed to do nothing except move items around. Even if you want to avoid buying kote's from gilsellers you are unable to avoid them and jump to the honest players because the gilseller transation will be automatically queued if they're selling the item for cheaper.

Now in a fictional world, you can make the argument that since in this fictional world where you can put Autumnstones on the auction-house that you'd see it as legit to buy off the auction house (althought I'm sure there'd be people in this fictional world saying you're supporting RMT doing it there too). However, you can't apply it to this world where you CAN decide to buy or not buy based on seller. Anymore than I can imagine a fictional world where we don't know who our linkshell members are, and use it to justify being in a linkshell with gilsellers here.

Yes you have the choice, but you have to have some decent evidence that said bazaar is a seller before turning him down to look for another stone. Without evidence you are buying from an anonymous buyer with a % it could be RMT, the same thing you are doing on the AH.