Store TP Galore!

[Nyosan~]

I was looking through the update gear info, and I came to the realization that there is now enough Store TP for Samurai to get a 5-hit with essentially any Great Katana (420 delay and up).

Of course, I'm not advocating doing this without concern for consequence; it's just an interesting idea.

Some of the more interesting pieces released this update:


Unkai Nodowa Rare Exclusive
Neck
STR+5 Accuracy+5 "Store TP"+3
Lv80 SAM

Goading Belt Rare Exclusive
Waist
Haste+5% "Store TP"+5 Enmity+3
Lv77 WAR, MNK, WHM, BLM, RDM, THF, PLD, DRK, BST, BRD, RNG, SAM, NIN, DRG, SMN, BLU, COR, PUP, DNC, SCH,

Tactical Mantle Rare Exclusive
Cloak
DEF:11 Attack-15 "Store TP"+6
Lv77 WAR, MNK, RDM, THF, PLD, DRK, BST, BRD, RNG, SAM, NIN, DRG, BLU, COR, DNC,


These definitely open up quite a few options for the balancing of Store TP with other gear to achieve maximum effect while conserving x-hit builds. Here's to hoping that they're somewhat achieveable.

 

[RaidrX]

I still dont think a 5 hit is a viable option. Wouldn't you need almost an additional 25+ stp on your set (on top of the 11+ to get 6 hit) with 5/5 merits in order to hit 5hit on a 450 delay? Even with all of those it's only 12+, and although the neck is nice if you don't have JTorque, and the belt and 1st back are decent as well, you'd still come up pretty short. Only thing i really see this being nice for would be using the belt/neck+rajas/brutal to get away from usukane sune-ate, so you can go back to Fuma/Sarutobi for the additional 1% haste. Or if you dont have Rajas/brutal, but after this last update everyone should have one or be working on getting them.

Side note: The Belenos might actually be better than Chuch as well (except on pole ws), bout the same acc but +5 attack over cuch, and the store tp doesn't hurt anything.

 

[Nyosan~]

Like I said above, I'm not advocating a five-hit for everything; I was using it more as an illustration of all of the Store TP options out there.

After this update, I'd be highly surprised if we didn't get at least one more Store TP trait, if not two. At that point, it would become much more viable to have a five-hit in many situations, especially with some of the higher-delay options (hi2u, 464-delay OAThrice GKT). It should be a pretty interesting time for all involved.

Also, getting a six-hit on one of the 437 delay GKTs (Masamune, Amano, et al.) will be much more simple once this equipment becomes more widely discovered and available.

Edit: For example, with the new Delay: 464 GKTs (Can't recall the names, and can't check the wiki at the moment):

A five-hit can be had for the following:

TP: Rose Strap, Usubody, Usufeet, Rajas, Brutal, Goading Belt, and either Unkai Nodawa/Ecophoria/Chiv.Chain.
WS: Rose Strap, Usubody, Hmn. Kote +1, Rajas, Brutal, Myn. Haidate +1

It requires a little sacrificing on the WS, but it retains 20% equipment haste. Not bad at all for a build which swings with a delay of 183 when Hasso/Haste/double March is active. I'd love to be able to give this a shot.

Re-edit: lolme, Belenos' Mantle isn't equippable by SAM. Changed set-up.

 

[Aselus]

there is a valid setup for 5hit if you have all this gear due to the +stp trial katana.

with a 464 delay it takes 29 STP to reach a 5-hit build (w/ full stp merits).

5 from the GK
5 from Rajas
5 from the belt
6 from the cape
3 from the neck
4 from rose strap
1 from either ecphoria or brutal
that makes 29.

The back piece is the giant un-ideal here, and is pretty hard to get around, I guess you could use hachiman hands instead, if you have a really nice back piece or something, but that's saccing haste in the TP build. Iono someone would haveto actually get all that gear (lol esp considering how hard the belt is to attain) and test it XD

 

[etchdog2000]

I dont play SAM so I dont pay attn in detail to things I read about it, but I saw on BG "Whats Better" thread that they did some calculations on the 5-hit vs 6-hit combo. It was a good read that small bit I read, but I lost interest due to not having the job to care about.

 

[Arezael]

I was unaware that a STP+6 back piece had been found, I'm interested to know more, could you please post some specific information about it?

As far as easily obtained (non haste sacrificial) 5 hit builds are concerned, there are a few already available with existing items and no phantom pieces. The problem is that whichever solution is used, a major sacrifice has to be made, usually in the quality of the WS setup in order to maintain the true 5 hit build.

As it currently stands it's a little bit of a pointless exercise.

 

[Bajaratt]

I was unaware that a STP+6 back piece had been found, I'm interested to know more, could you please post some specific information about it?

As far as easily obtained (non haste sacrificial) 5 hit builds are concerned, there are a few already available with existing items and no phantom pieces. The problem is that whichever solution is used, a major sacrifice has to be made, usually in the quality of the WS setup in order to maintain the true 5 hit build.

As it currently stands it's a little bit of a pointless exercise.

The last few months I was playing, I was using a 5-hit build on my samurai with my Rindomaru and it was easily worth it. With the testing I did, Hagun did a little more damage per WS, but with the 5-hit build, you did much more damage overall since you were doing weapon skills 17% more often.

This was last year around this time too, so before all this extra store TP gear would have been available, allowing you to keep using Hagun with a 5-hit and improving your WS build. Even if you had to lose haste from hands/feet, it's still easily worth it, since you're doing weapon skills significantly faster than any single haste piece would give.

 

[Nyosan~]

there is a valid setup for 5hit if you have all this gear due to the +stp trial katana.

with a 464 delay it takes 29 STP to reach a 5-hit build (w/ full stp merits).

5 from the GK
5 from Rajas
5 from the belt
6 from the cape
3 from the neck
4 from rose strap
1 from either ecphoria or brutal
that makes 29.

The back piece is the giant un-ideal here, and is pretty hard to get around, I guess you could use hachiman hands instead, if you have a really nice back piece or something, but that's saccing haste in the TP build. Iono someone would haveto actually get all that gear (lol esp considering how hard the belt is to attain) and test it XD

It's much more simple if you've got Usubody and Usufeet. With 464 delay and Store TP+5 from the GKT, all it takes is Usubody/feet, Rose Strap, Rajas, Brutal, and an Ecphoria Ring. That lets one keep all of the major haste pieces, and keep the more dd-oriented neck and back gear.

I was unaware that a STP+6 back piece had been found, I'm interested to know more, could you please post some specific information about it?

As far as easily obtained (non haste sacrificial) 5 hit builds are concerned, there are a few already available with existing items and no phantom pieces. The problem is that whichever solution is used, a major sacrifice has to be made, usually in the quality of the WS setup in order to maintain the true 5 hit build.

As it currently stands it's a little bit of a pointless exercise.

The new GKT has a total DMG of 91, which is a significant improvement over Pachipachio or Rindomaru. As far as a WS set is concerned, it can be accomplished by sacrificing 5 STR (10 if you've got Hachiryu legs) and the strap slot, which isn't a huge amount. Rose Strap/Usubody or Hachiman body/Myochin Haidate +1/Hachiman Sune-Ate will do the trick. Not bad, considering the increase in WS frequency.

 

[Lecreuset]

Hagun + Typical SAM TP Gear that bosses wear + Eisen Grip. <3 Hai guyz.

 

[Nyosan~]

Hagun + Typical SAM TP Gear that bosses wear + Eisen Grip. <3 Hai guyz.

Seeing as Eisen Grip adds ~24% delay, it's hardly a fair exchange. Think of it this way:

Would you use a grip that gives Slow +24%, regardless of how much Store TP was given?

That's like losing Haste and the lower March, or like removing all of one's Haste gear, just to gain extra Store TP. A pretty sizeable amount, granted, but not even close to being worthwhile. I can get Store TP in quite a few other places.

I think I'll pass on this one.

Nice try, Lec. <3

Spoiler:

This is based on the limited information currently on the lolwiki; any factual errors revealed later are the responsibility of lolwiki, Inc. :biggrin:

 

[Lecreuset]

I'm on a bandwagon. Seeing if Iron likes it or not before I get one. .-. Then again I also don't have Nocturnus Mail. ;o

Idk, I think that's pretty sick work and a fair trade off with the Eisen Grip, vs the precision timing/double atk and whatnot it'd take to stay on it full time and do it with a Rose Strap. .-.

Have one to try and and see if it's not as practical as you say it is? o_x

 

[Taurothar]

I'll give it that it's interesting to see a 4 hit build possible with that Eisen grip, but the 558 base delay from a 450 gkt would certainly slow things down. Is a 24% delay increase worth a 33% increase in number of WS over a 6 hit build? or a 20% increase over a 5 hit build? The numbers might be worth crunching.

Need 36 STP in addition to the capped merits etc. Any really good and realistic builds to use there? I'm somewhat new to SAM.

 

[Nyosan~]

Unless there is some hidden DMG+ on the Eisen Grip, it isn't going to affect WS damage. Hagun certainly improves WS damage, but there's also no way of knowing from that screen shot whether that's a Double Attack on the WS or coupled with Sneak Attack rather than typical Sandworm WS damage with that build. I can't say I know since I've never fought Sandworm, but I'm guessing it's one of the former.

The Eisen Grip has the advantage of allowing any 450 delay GKT to maintain a 5-hit with only an additional +2 in Store TP gear. However, the difference between 558 delay and 450 delay is significant.

With 558 delay, 20% haste in gear, Haste/Hasso/Double March, delay drops to 192 (3.2 seconds) per swing, or 768 delay (12.8 seconds) to 100% TP.

With 450 delay, 20% haste in gear, Haste/Hasso/Double March, delay drops to 155 (2.6 seconds) per swing, or 775 delay (12.9 seconds) to 100% TP.

Total time to 100% TP varies by about one tenth of a second, while the 450-delay build gets an extra hit in on the way, contributing more DoT.

It's slightly more complicated than this, but I'm at work right now and can't take the time to 'nuke it out' a bit more. I'll try to remember to come back tomorrow and post in further detail about this and the possibility of a four-hit, since I have the day off.

 

[Nyosan~]

I've got a couple of minutes, so here are my thoughts on the '4-hit' build:

I'll give it that it's interesting to see a 4 hit build possible with that Eisen grip, but the 558 base delay from a 450 gkt would certainly slow things down. Is a 24% delay increase worth a 33% increase in number of WS over a 6 hit build? or a 20% increase over a 5 hit build? The numbers might be worth crunching.

Need 36 STP in addition to the capped merits etc. Any really good and realistic builds to use there? I'm somewhat new to SAM.

For a 450-delay GKT with Eisen Grip, one could make a four-hit build by using the following gear: Unkai Nodawa (+3), Brutal Earring (+1), Usubody (+6), Hachiman Kote +1 (+9), Rajas Ring (+5), Goading Belt (+5), Usufeet (+7). It's not a horrendous sacrifice in the TP set, but maintaining the Store TP +36 in the WS requires significant sacrifice. I can't really estimate a damage difference, but I think the difference would be of significant detriment to WS damage, limiting the benefit of the increased WS frequency.

For the Keitono Store TP GKT, fewer sacrifices are required due to the higher base delay and the Store TP on the weapon. With 575 delay, Store TP+34 is required to make a four-hit build. Since the Keitono provides Store TP+5, this set allows Usufeet to be dropped for 1% more haste. Or, Unkai/Goading dropped and Ecphoria added, for those of us who don't have Unkai/Goading. The WS STR penalty is alleviated somewhat, but still has several sacrifices.

As far as what would be best, I can't say I know; I'm not a particularly strong mathologist. Personally, barring someone showing some solid proof that another build is better, I'll stick with my Keitono 5-hit.