Store TP vs. Haste

[pchan]

assuming you have usu feet w/ 5/5 merits in store TP
25 from job
10 from merits
7 - usu feet
5 - raja
1 - brutal
total store TP = 48

(hagun tp per swing = 11.5)
11.5 * 1.48 = 17.02 * 5 hits = 85.1
100 - 85.1 = 14.9
you need 14.9 TP from your WS
14.9 / 11.5 = 1.29
you need 29 store TP from your WS

since you have 35 from job trait and merits, you can WS in anything you want

The game doesn't take into account anything past the first decimal so you need to drop decimals :

11.5*1.48=17.02 =17.0 TP per hit, no more.
5*17.0=85.0 after 5 hits
100-85.0=15.0
15.0/11.5=1.304

with 30 stp during the initial WS/48 while meleing you get 1.30*11.5 (=14.9 tps when rounded) + 85.0=99.9

So in this case you need 31 STP during WS or more to reach 100+, which is enough with trait(25) + 5 merit.

 

[Shaq]

I made my own computations, I just need 3 merits then (body+feet+brutal=+14..), won't bother with last 2 for a while.

assuming you have 3/5 merits in store TP, usu body, usu feet, brutal, and no rajas

25 - job traits
6 - merits
7 - usu feet
6 - usu body
1 - brutal
total store TP = 45

(everything truncated to the first decimal , thx to pchan)
(hagun tp per swing = 11.5)
11.5 * 1.45 = 16.6 * 5 hits = 83
100 - 83 = 17
you need 17 TP from your WS
17 / 11.5 = 1.5
you need 50 store TP from your WS

so you still need 50 store TP during WS

50 - 45 (job, merit, usu body, usu feet, brutal) = 5
where you going to get the extra 5 store TP?
since you don't have Rajas and your body/feet pieces are locked,
i am assuming hachiman kote (store TP+8) or Shinimusha Haidate (store TP+6)?

if you have rajas, then the numbers would be different, and 3/5 will be enough

if not, WS in hachi kote, shinimusah haidate and usu feet are kinda lame
(rutter and askar for your feet would be better options)

 

[Shaq]

i somehow forgot about chiv chain
assuming you have 3/5 merits in store TP, usu body, usu feet, brutal, chiv chain, and no rajas

25 - job traits
6 - merits
7 - usu feet
6 - usu body
1 - brutal
1 - chiv chain
total store TP = 46

(everything truncated to the first decimal , thx to pchan)
(hagun tp per swing = 11.5)
11.5 * 1.46 = 16.7 * 5 hits = 83.5
100 - 83 = 16.5
you need 17 TP from your WS
16.5 / 11.5 = 1.43

you need 43 store TP from your WS

so you can switch out your feet piece for hachi
total store TP - usu feet + hachiman feet (HQ)
46 - 7 + 5 (or 6) = 44(45)

hachiman feet has STR and WS accuracy on them, so it's acceptable

i think SAM's one-hit WS does have some build-it accuracy or something
i parsed Kirin with 2 SAM (Fygla and me)
while we both have melee accuracy about 80%+
both of our WS accuracy are above 90%

don't quote me on that, i'll need to find the parse to make sure

 

[mdkuser]

I got rajas, but was considering the worse case where i'd have to equip 2 acc rings ( einherjar), although I'll use rajs 95% I think. But I don't need it for 6 hit.

 

[Phraust]

First: B.Haidate, Askar/Ace's, Dusk Gloves, Usukane boots, Swift Belt.

18% Haste = 22% more hits.

Job Traits: 25.STP
Askar Body: 5.STP
Rajas Ring: 5.STP
Usukane Sune-Ate: 7.STP
Brutal Earring: 1.STP

TOTAL: 43.STP

Base: 11.5 x 1.43 = 16.45
6 x 16.45 = 98.7TP

1 Firespit = 2 TP
1 Pecking Flurry with full shadows = 2 TP
1 AoE Spell of any kind = 2 TP
1 Stray Hit of any kind = 2 TP

So.... Without StoreTP merits... You can do a 6-Hit build...

Swap out Askar for Haub+1, all you need is 2 StoreTP merits.

Back to Haste...

50% Haste is a 50% reduction in Delay, that means you attack 2x as fast.

5% haste: ~5% more hits.
10% haste: ~11% more hits. Ace's, Swift, Usukane
12% haste: ~14% more hits. B.Haidate, Ace's, Fuma's
14% haste: ~16% more hits. B.Haidate, Ace's, Dusk Hands, Usukane
16% haste: ~19% more hits. B.Haidate, Ace's, Dusk Hands, Fuma's
18% haste: ~22% more hits. B.Haidate, Ace's, Askar Hands, Swift, Fuma's
20% haste: ~25% more hits. B.Haidate, Ace's, Speed Belt, Dusk Gloves, Usukane.
22% haste: ~28% more hits. B.Haidate, Ace's, Askar Hands, Swift Belt, Usukane, Wyvern Earring.
24% haste: ~32% more hits. B.Haidate, Ace's, Askar Hands, Speed Belt, Usukane, Wyvern Earring.
25% haste: ~33% more hits. B.Haidate, Ace's, Dusk Gloves, Speed Belt, Usukane, Wyvern Earring.


In short, you can have both a 6-hit build, and capped haste.

Considering some of the Samurai I seen with literally NO HASTE, in the time it takes them to hit 4 swings, a GOOD Samurai can have weaponskilled already. Unless the other guys got some insane 4 hit build, I think it's be obvious who'd win.

Wasn't really paying attention to the thread really, just htought I'd plop down my soap box and preach a bit.

 

[mdkuser]

yea sometimes its worth it considering tp gained from being hit. And in most situation you will be hit. Be it wether by a melee hit, a spell, an aoe etc...

I have two different set-ups, and usukane body/askar body allows for more flexibility on rings choice:

HIGH ACCURACY: ( typically salvage early floors, meripo on puks/imps, limbus, dynamis , nyzul etc.).

TP set: using usu body, usu feet, rajas, brutal earring.

STP=25+6+7+5+1+6(merit)=50.
TP=trunc(11.5x1.5)=17.2

WS set= usubody, RSE feet, rajas+omicron and brutal also.

STP=25+6+5+1+6(merit)=43
TP=trunc(11.5x1.43)=16.4

1WS+5melee hit=102.4



LOW ACCURACY: when I'll need the most accuracy. MMJ lurkers camps, some einherjar wing III and Valgrind, some salvage Bosses. Random high evasive NMS.

TP set= usubody, usu feet, 2xacc rings, brutal.

STP=25+6+7+1+6 (merit)=45.
TP=16.6

WS set= usu body, usu feet, rajas only.
STP=25+6+7+5+6(merit)=49
TP=17.1

WS+5melee hits=100.1 TP.




With the first set, I also get 100+ TP in 6 melee hits, in case I miss my WS. But not in set 2 ( unless i get hit by a mob). One more stp merit will fix it.

I'll change usu body to askar body when I get it in set 1 ( very high accuracy), one less stp but still 6 hits of course.

 

[Redshift]

@Phraust
There is no reason to consider TP from being hit, you either get to 100 in 6hits or 7hits. It's really unreliable to depend on getting hit to make a 6 hit.

@mdkuser
It's a good point to make for whenever you need high ACC, you can use Usu body and just go ACC rings x2 and still maintain a 6hit, but for most people it's out of reach because the 10m price tag =/.

 

[Phraust]

@Phraust
There is no reason to consider TP from being hit, you either get to 100 in 6hits or 7hits. It's really unreliable to depend on getting hit to make a 6 hit.

It's a very valid point. On paper Communism looks awesome for instance. In practice it fails.

Yes, you can in fact rely on a stray hit or AoE for the extra TP. Its 1 TP in most cases... The likelyhood of getting 1TP falls into an acceptable margin to count as "reliable". Other things you can rely on: Your SC partner not having TP. and Your Blms needing to cool off before the next burst, (Recasts, Hate, Etc.)

Just an observation, I have NEVER once seen anyone USE a 6-hit settup. In merit parties, either people get pissed that you WS off the bat/too soon, and you pull hate(getting stray hits I was talking about ironically) or they hold TP because the mob is about to die towards the end of the fight. In short, MOST of the time I see people waiting 7-9+ hits between Weapon Skills.

No one "6-hits" It's akin to the folks that make large claims like they weaponskill 50% more damage than what the parsers say. Even before I had all the gear I have now, I was outparsing people that relied on 6-hit builds by a decent margin, Please note I dind't even have GK merits until after I got my Relic(lol... I know...) THe math wasn't there, I would WS more frequently because I had the Haste to support me, and they didn't, they relied on StoreTP gear for TP they were already getting.

These conversations about StoreTP/Haste were usually about gear specifically, People woudl sacrifice way too much for that StoreTP, when it wasn't even being used. Now that the gear is there to where no sacrifices need to be made. The scenario was simple: StoreTP vs Haste, and the answer was equally simple: Both.

There's amore valid question that I am yet to see anyone ask....

 

[Gunnerx]

Yes, you can in fact rely on a stray hit or AoE for the extra TP. Its 1 TP in most cases... The likelyhood of getting 1TP falls into an acceptable margin to count as "reliable". Other things you can rely on: Your SC partner not having TP. and Your Blms needing to cool off before the next burst, (Recasts, Hate, Etc.)

No, that would not be a 6hit. You dont only use a 6hit for SC and MB, doesn't even meet the point people are making.

There's amore valid question that I am yet to see anyone ask....

I am quite content with my SAM gear as it is right now, working on 2 main pieces of gear. But my question is why you don't use gear in your examples that is avaiable to the leisurely player, not Usukane this and usukane that.

No one "6-hits"

In a merit party i WS every tim i get to 100% or 180%(Sekkanoki) so there are people who utilize a 6hit, without needing an AoE to top them off.

 

[Jakey]

Yes, you can in fact rely on a stray hit or AoE for the extra TP. Its 1 TP in most cases... The likelyhood of getting 1TP falls into an acceptable margin to count as "reliable". Other things you can rely on: Your SC partner not having TP. and Your Blms needing to cool off before the next burst, (Recasts, Hate, Etc.)

Just an observation, I have NEVER once seen anyone USE a 6-hit settup. In merit parties, either people get pissed that you WS off the bat/too soon, and you pull hate(getting stray hits I was talking about ironically) or they hold TP because the mob is about to die towards the end of the fight. In short, MOST of the time I see people waiting 7-9+ hits between Weapon Skills.

No one "6-hits" It's akin to the folks that make large claims like they weaponskill 50% more damage than what the parsers say. Even before I had all the gear I have now, I was outparsing people that relied on 6-hit builds by a decent margin, Please note I dind't even have GK merits until after I got my Relic(lol... I know...) THe math wasn't there, I would WS more frequently because I had the Haste to support me, and they didn't, they relied on StoreTP gear for TP they were already getting.

These conversations about StoreTP/Haste were usually about gear specifically, People woudl sacrifice way too much for that StoreTP, when it wasn't even being used. Now that the gear is there to where no sacrifices need to be made. The scenario was simple: StoreTP vs Haste, and the answer was equally simple: Both.

There's amore valid question that I am yet to see anyone ask....

Depending how you play your job and the PT your in you might not always want to be consistantly getting hit at least once within every 6 times you hit a mob. now if you're an apoc drk who drains back that hp with your ws this is a different story but most DD's ideally you're not getting hit very often in most partys, baring lots of support/refresh, or a very high powered cannon that just kills mobs before they can do much damage.

here's another issue with how much store tp you may or may not want to aim for, not so much for sams but I know for me as a drg I didn't sacrfice anything to have a 6 hit requiring all hits landing on penta(so 5/5 hit penta + 5 hits) now that works ~77% of the time (assuming capped acc which I can easily reach) so the question becomes is it worth sacrificing something(wont need to if I can get a valk fork ><) so that I can afford 1 or more misses on penta and so colibri don't force me into 7 hits when they steal my tp. These are some other issues that multi-hit ws users should think about. Maybe I should make a "save the 6 hit" gear set to macro in for when I miss a few hits or tp is stolen so i can still reach 100 in 6 hits, since this situation is rare and I give up stats otherwise.

Then here's one more twist I actually now use different amounts of store tp on jumps, tp, and ws gear sets. This allows me to sacrifice the fewest stats possible well keeping a 6 hit, with what I have.

and you have seen at least 1 6-hit build in a merit PT as we PTed a while back and I guess you do in fact rely on being hit as you took over half the damage for the entire PT.
This was colibri so no doubt it was rather scewed and this is very old (almost 7 months old) so I expect everyone would do very different today, I know at least I have gotten a ton of gear since then.

sorry I'm not an actual sam (well drg/sam is like half sam at least)

 

[Phraust]

I think that parse was when I was Stage IV Relic iirc. (Was right after the 2handed update) And it did irritate me you whooped my parse ; ;

What was Retu? Wasn't he a Hagun Sam?

To the point though, what I meant was I have seen many many Sams in a 6-hit build but I have never seen any of them use a 6-hit build. Having a 6-hit build and WS'ing every 8th hit is what I was eluding to.

 

[Jakey]

I think that parse was when I was Stage IV Relic iirc. (Was right after the 2handed update) And it did irritate me you whooped my parse ; ;

What was Retu? Wasn't he a Hagun Sam?

To the point though, what I meant was I have seen many many Sams in a 6-hit build but I have never seen any of them use a 6-hit build. Having a 6-hit build and WS'ing every 8th hit is what I was eluding to.

he was a nin, rather well equiped as I remember and this was shortly after you got amano, probably before you finished GKT merits(parse logs have jin and kaiten listed as being used respectively)

you're right though it's a big issue where sams and other jobs sit on tp rather than use because of fear of taking damage, ever since 2h buff and even some before I've tried to make sets that let me be agressive to fully use my damage, without sucking mp.