Strength vs Attack

Aaleel

Aaleel

Artifact Armor
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Aaleel
This really started from a thread in the SAM forum asking if Smilodon Mantle +1 was better than a Amemet Mantle +1, I didn't want to derail that thread but I've always wondered, where do people draw the line for Att vs Str, for a job like Sam with such high mods.

You have the extreme of O. Kote Vs Alky with no added attack on one, and no added str on the other.

But say something like Hachiman +1 5 Str and 12 att vs Alky; apparently 12 att isn't worth the lose of 6 Str? But what about Hachiman/Hachiman +1 vs. Af Hands +1 which is +7 Str.

If they came out with a Hand armor that had the stats of 6 Str & 15 att, is 15 att worth dropping Alkys and 5 Str?

I always just wondered what people thought about this, or where they would draw the line.
 
i think problem with the hachiman hand is that the att only comes when you have more than 100 TP, and doesnt apply on WS. what is the chance that SAM holding 100+ TP for while and meleeing?
 
Ahh, I forgot that lol. Disregard the Hachiman Kote part :)

I'm really just wondering about where people would drop str for att. I wasn't really trying to compare current armor.

Like is 15 att better than 4 Str but not 6 Str, what combination of Str and attack would make a better Hand armor than Alky. Just stuff like that.
 
basic rule of thumb keep attack and haste for tp, STR for weapon skills.
 
For WSing the mods for Kasha and Gekko are 75% STR. I don't know the numbers specifically but direct STR has a greater overall affect on these WSs than Attack. Otherwise it's better to have Haste to get the TP faster over ATT.

edit: pieces with both, keep the high att if STR is combined, they're right when they say the +15 ATT over 2 STR, but this really also considers that you have STR on several other slots, so helps to toss a bit of ATT in there.
 
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Alky Bracelets to AF+1 hands = (-4 Str +13 Dex +800,000 gil) that's about 10 raw accuracy for weponskills.

In general you can split it down the middle and have the best of both worlds, use Str for WS and Attack for TP etc, in most cases. (This should be obvious) as per your question specifically, I think pretains to WS gear; idk, just feel it out, they're really big melee hits, and bound by almost the same laws.

I personally looked at the stats like this for WS:

1 Str = 5 attack,

So Forager's = an index of 6
Smiledon's = an index of 5

Or you can look at things usign "Eyeball Math".

Rules to Eyeball Math:

1)Circumstances must be calculated under 'best case scenario'.
2) under the 'best case scenario' isolate variables you are testing versus one another.
3) Compare %'s and index them based on importance based on aplication.


For instance:

Dusk Gloves versus O.Kote:

One adds 3% Haste and 5 attack, the other adds 20 Attack.

- 3% Haste is a 3% reduction in weapon delay.
- 'my' base set of gear excluding hands has 15% Haste.
- 'my' base set of gear has let's say 350 attack(for arguments sake)

The X and Y here are total haste, and total attack:

Dusk: 18% haste, 355 Attack
= 4% total increase in the amount of swings per given amount of time, and a 1.4% increase in attack.

~5.4% increase in damage?

O.Kote: 15% haste, 370 Attack
= 5.4% total increase in attack.

~5.4% increase in damage?

But here's the thing, which one will get you to Weaponskill faster?
If weaponskills are 50% of your damage, getting there 4% faster will net you more benefit. (I.E. haste trumps all in most if not all cases) for the 20 attack to trump haste you'd need to have a base attack of about 240.


For weaponskills:
Assuming you have 400 Attack and 100 Str base:

Forager's: 15 Attack, 3 Str
Smilodon: 5 str

Eyeballing it, you get either a 3.6% increase in attack and a 3% increase in Str. OR you get a 5% increase in Str.

If you were at 450 attack and 135 Str:

Eyeballing it, you get either a 3.2% increase in attack and a 2.1% increase in Str. OR you get a 3.6% increase in Str.

The other angle you could go is this:

One set I have 123 str, and the other set I have 125 str. It's a 1.6% difference in One stat ignoring the other. Now you can ask yourself a couple questions:

How much damage is 1.6%? If a normal weaponskill does 1,000, that's only 16 damage.
is +15 Attack going to affect me greater than 1.6%?
is 1.6% damage the 16 damage per 1,000 on only 50% of my total damage output worth 1 inventory slot?

In short, you need to find your Waterline. I am not going to waste my time and space for a 0.8% increase in total damage. I personally start to crack at around ~3%.

This long winded post is just my opinion. I personally am a little relaxed on gear mainly because I save stuff that has more utility, and will sacrifice a bit for simplicity.
 
As a mage only, my brain hurts now.

Thanks alot! :)
 
The only problem with Phrausts logic is it's a higher variable than 1.6% when adding in mob vitality. For simplicity sake, assume 100 VIT mob.

The change moves from (123-100) 23 to (125-100) 25. 2/25 or an 8% strength differential that will be in the formula itself...if I'm understanding his thought process correctly.
 
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jamal said:
The only problem with Phrausts logic is it's a higher variable than 1.6% when adding in mob vitality. For simplicity sake, assume 100 VIT mob.

The change moves from (123-100) 23 to (125-100) 25. 2/25 or an 8% strength differential that will be in the formula itself...if I'm understanding his thought process correctly.
Click to expand...

I assumed that same logic applied to attack versus def as well. After doign enough bullshit comparrisons I see they scale pretty on par with one another.

So sure, at 400 attack, 123 or 125 str, versus a mob that has 100 vit might typically have 350 defense too. And if it had 80 vite, it might have only 300 def, etc. (numbers from my ass btw)

It's the jewel that is "Eyeball Math" once you done the "Real Math" enough times you start seeing some constants. But Jamal is right.
 
Phraust said:
I assumed that same logic applied to attack versus def as well. After doign enough bullshit comparrisons I see they scale pretty on par with one another.

So sure, at 400 attack, 123 or 125 str, versus a mob that has 100 vit might typically have 350 defense too. And if it had 80 vite, it might have only 300 def, etc. (numbers from my ass btw)

It's the jewel that is "Eyeball Math" once you done the "Real Math" enough times you start seeing some constants. But Jamal is right.
Click to expand...

I see, I haven't looked into defense / vit ratios 'too too' much on mobs...just been working alot with Dex vs. Agi ratios so was applying those concepts.
 
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jamal said:
I see, I haven't looked into defense / vit ratios 'too too' much on mobs...just been working alot with Dex vs. Agi ratios so was applying those concepts.
Click to expand...

Lol... Same... I been fucking with crit building my war. I can get to 125 Dex Comfortably, with only a tiny hit to accuracy. That should theoretically be the 20% crit tier on most Merit mobs, and I think that's before merits and gear. But yeah.
 
Phraust said:
Lol... Same... I been fucking with crit building my war. I can get to 125 Dex Comfortably, with only a tiny hit to accuracy. That should theoretically be the 20% crit tier on most Merit mobs, and I think that's before merits and gear. But yeah.
Click to expand...

elolvaan DEX doesn't make that very easily obtainable for me D:
 
ds083roadkill said:
wow thats old haha. dont even remember it. think it was when the 1dex=1acc was in effect, i cant even recall.
Click to expand...

Yea, pretty sure it was before the 2-hand update. Good reminiscing though
 
Phraust said:
It's flame baiting!!!!
I think you should be fined 3,000.00 QCDN rep points!
Click to expand...

rofl, too late for that...they're already loooooooooooooooong gone.
 
STR to ATK ratio is: 1 str to .75 atk, 4 str will up your attack 3.

now, you have to take into consideration that str does not only affect atk, but it also affects your base damage possibility.

you kind of need a balance str to atk if you're going for a balanced setup. then you have to consider, that samurai ws's have a 75% str modifier. it's obviously better to have 10 str to 10 atk.

more important than atk is acc and haste. samurai isn't considered the best DOT but the best source of DD through WS. so you really want to make sure you're hitting, hitting fast, and then have a shit ton of str during WSs. that's for SAM. i think other melee/DD jobs need a balanced setup between atk and str, and they my choose to focus on DEX and AGI depending on their job. from what i understand though, if you think about atk being the height of a room, str is how high you can jump in it.
 
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