Super Smash Brawl

Skaw: You mean remove skill from the game? =/

Khali: You actually got that wrong a little. Now that people have figured out how damned good the shine moves are, Falco has moved up to join Fox in the top tier, and Marth and Sheik have actually both moved down to high tier. Peach has also bumped up to high tier now. All three new entries in the high tier join Samus, and everyone else that WAS high tier moved down to mid. =x Oh, and Captain Falcon is now in the top tier too.

Ganondorf is considered a counter to uh... one of the major high tier characters, can't remember which though. Other than that though, he's too slow even with L-cancel to make it past mid tier.
 
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well, i guess team starfox may get fixed up a lil' bit along with the top tier ppl. Probably some dmg adjustments too for some moves. Still though.. smash is a very fun game to play.. with friends or competetively or in tournament play.

It has nothing to do with vitality, which makes it so great imo. Unlike the majority of the other fighters which use the traditional 0 vit = k.o.

Easy game to pick up.. there's advanced stuff to it. If you wish to use items, it changes up the game.. etc etc. I think smash is the only game i'm looking forward to... It will probably be the deciding factor to me getting a Wii or not.
 
Tagrineth said:
Skaw: You mean remove skill from the game?
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If you want to call that "skill," yes.

It's far from skill, it's borderline cheating through glitches/unexpected coding, just like Snaking in Mario Kart DS. Winning without relying on cheap tricks is skill.

Retaining them will just swamp online with retards obsessed with their win records that it'll result to abusing to win, or disconnecting to prevent losses, making the online pointless to play.
 
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Skaw said:
If you want to call that "skill," yes.

It's far from skill, it's borderline cheating through glitches/unexpected coding, just like Snaking in Mario Kart DS. Winning without relying on cheap tricks is skill.

Retaining them will just swamp online with retards obsessed with their win records that it'll result to abusing to win, or disconnecting to prevent losses, making the online pointless to play.
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I'm with skaw on this, at the point the computer is completely incapable of doing something, it's a glitch. All of this tournament bullshit is just who can exploit glitches the best, not any indication of a players skill in the game. It requires effort to use those glitches effectively, but that's not skill. When I get brawl and start playing online, it's going to be no glitches or you get booted.
 
Man if this game goes online and is not laggy.. i want to play some of you guys. We are all talking the talk.. but we need to walk the walk now. XD Form an FFXI SSBB Clan ^.^
 
Mistra said:
Peach pulls onions out of strange places though >.>;
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Doesn't she pull Toad from the same place?
 
The most important tournament "special trick" is L-cancel, which isn't a glitch. It's clearly in both SSB Classic and SSBM. It's even described in the strategy guide.

Some of the best SSBM players in the world - Ken, for one - rarely wavedash, and are on the record as having won multiple tournaments without ever Wavedashing except dashdancing as a taunt after a kill.

Would you whine about cheap tricks if Ken, Isai, ClodZero, or ChuDat hopped on SSBB online and cleaned your clock hardcore without using a single wavedash but using L-cancels and careful combos?


Edit: Addendum: Any SSBM pro will tell you that while knowing how to wavedash well and do crazy shit like waveshine and dashdance will give your technique a boost, skill is still the number one factor.
 
I've seen Ken play at MOAST3 in dallas... talk about no mercy.. he's on you like white on rice with marth.. doing his death juggle combo... Aerial neutral A fast fall LC wash, rinse and repeat with down aerial spike finish.
 
By the way, all signs are pointing toward Brawl having wavedash, which would in fact quell ANY doubt as to its place in the game.
 
Tagrineth said:
By the way, all signs are pointing toward Brawl having wavedash, which would in fact quell ANY doubt as to its place in the game.
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Nintendo has already confirmed that the biggest changes that they'll be making to the game are the air combat tweaks. Wavedashing, Shorthopping, L-canceling and all the rest of the "glitches" will make the return. There's an issue of Nintendo power that praises the high-level tournament players and their ability to use these methods conventionally.

I believe Tag's already gotten into this as well. We can all talk the talk and some of us can even walk the walk (I'd imagine) but put us up against major level players and they won't even need to wavedash, L-cancel, and use all those other "glitches" to pound us into submission. I've had the previlage of seeing Ken, Azen, Isai and a few of the other great tournament players and they're on a different level than most of us, even without those techniques.

In closing, I look foward to Brawl a WHOLE lot and what it'll bring to the tournament community and the casual players. (Shiek ftw too ^^)

Edit:
Adding Tournament level Tier List for everyone to discuss.
Top Tier
Fox
Falco

High Tier
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Middle Tier
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Doctor Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf

Low Tier
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu

Bottom Tier
Yoshi
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo
 
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wtf, Fox and Falco top tier, Sheik and Marth down one? Sheik and Marth 4tw D:
 
I'm still finding it hard to believe they programmed moves into the game and then prevented the computer from ever being able to use them. It sounds more like they're just not going to change the base code for the game rather than it was intentional. Whether they leave it in or not, I'm not playing anyone with that tournament crap. I'd never even heard of shit like L-cancel or wavedashing until people started with that "tournament tier" bullshit, and I don't see a need to exploit crap when all I want to do is play the game.
 
That Tournament Tier is totally crap. I garuntee you that, it does not matter how fast Fox and Falco are. The moment you nock them down, they're down, and thats when you strike.
 
Bajaratt said:
I'm still finding it hard to believe they programmed moves into the game and then prevented the computer from ever being able to use them. It sounds more like they're just not going to change the base code for the game rather than it was intentional. Whether they leave it in or not, I'm not playing anyone with that tournament crap. I'd never even heard of shit like L-cancel or wavedashing until people started with that "tournament tier" bullshit, and I don't see a need to exploit crap when all I want to do is play the game.
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The AI also walks straight across proximity mines. I take it, then, since the AI is incapable of jumping over them, that doing so is hax?

The AI simply isn't programmed to use WD or SHFFL, probably partly because an AI's timing is perfect. WD is mostly used for mindgames or for abusing recovery frames. An AI that could WD would be nearly untouchable and would punish every single minute mistake you ever make. If the AI could SHFFL against you, it'd be nigh on impossible to beat a top level AI.

You consider L-cancel hax and refuse to use it, but keep in mind that while WD and SHFF moves weren't in SSB classic... L-cancel was. While it's unsure if SHFF/WD was an intended tactic, L-cancel was clearly programmed deliberately... but the AI doesn't use it, ever. I guess it's clearly hax then right?


That Tournament Tier is totally crap. I garuntee you that, it does not matter how fast Fox and Falco are. The moment you nock them down, they're down, and thats when you strike.
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Totally crap? Uh, sure. Fox's recoverly is fairly decent, actually, but that isn't even the point. Fox can take a lot of characters from 0 to KO very easily. If you don't believe me, do a Google Video search for "Shined Blind".

Fox and Falco are mostly considered their own tier because Shine does knockback irrespective of damage. Fox can Shine spike just about any character at any % and cancel their recovery if they leave the stage's border for any reason, and Falco can Pillar (Shine the opponent upward, follow into the air, spike downward, fast fall, up A or shine the opponent up again, etc) at more or less any % at will on a flat stage. Pillaring one of the major reasons why tournaments cycle through about 6 "neutral" stages now instead of being Final Destination only like they once were.
 
I know all about shine spiking and shine knockback. Fox and Falco are only top tier if you KNOW how to use them effectively.. Marth and Sheik 'can' be 'top tier' because they are easier to use. I've never see Advanced characters like Fox and Falco.... the Tier roster does make sense. They should fix up the shine knockback so you can't do stuff like that.. although it's hard to do. Just like how Storm and Magneto are Top Tier in MvC2

You can google search for Shined Blind.. or you can just goto combovideos.com... register for a free account.. and have your pick at a lotta videos.

'Ode to the 2 Hit Combo' is the best Video ever created and edited.
 
That Tier list is wrong, trust me. I play C. Falcon, Gannondorf and Marth/Roy.
 
Bajaratt said:
I'm still finding it hard to believe they programmed moves into the game and then prevented the computer from ever being able to use them. It sounds more like they're just not going to change the base code for the game rather than it was intentional. Whether they leave it in or not, I'm not playing anyone with that tournament crap. I'd never even heard of shit like L-cancel or wavedashing until people started with that "tournament tier" bullshit, and I don't see a need to exploit crap when all I want to do is play the game.
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Its not for everyone that for sure Bajaratt. I wouldn't dream of trying to push anyone toward using the techniques. Hell just play the game, so long as your having fun what does it matter?
To be honest, I kindof wanted to see what you had to say about the character tier list.

Blaine said:
That Tournament Tier is totally crap. I garuntee you that, it does not matter how fast Fox and Falco are. The moment you nock them down, they're down, and thats when you strike.
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Tag beat me to it, but go ahead and google video "Shine Blind" and "Falco, Pillar". Some good Fox/Falco players never hit the ground. And besides, they have to get up eventully even if they do.

Myushani said:
That Tier list is wrong, trust me. I play C. Falcon, Gannondorf and Marth/Roy.
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Care to elaborate a little?
 
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Eh.. I think fox, falco, marth, sheik and peach should all be in the top tier together. Fox and Falco if you actually know how to do their shine spikes and shine knockbacks they are top tier.. otherwise... they are mid tier IMO.

Marth and Sheik have the best air game. once you're up in the air.. you'll probably be gaining a good 50 - 70% dmg before you hit the ground again. Marth's range is just insane.. and he has 'tip' too. I know ppl have tried to 'eye' how far tip is.. and all this does is make you more liable to get hit by tip even more, lol. (happens to me a lot).

I think Fox, Falco, and Sheik have the best OTG game, but Sheik's is easier to do. Peach has a basic OTG i think unless your opponent loves to 'absorb' moves a lot, in which case 'In down smash we trust.'

Edge Game goes to fox, marth and sheik i'd say if you know how to use the chain with sheik.. it can be pretty nasty. Fox of course has shine spike but that's a very advanced technique. Marth has down tilt OTG or practically any other move.. forward tilt or smash always are fun..

If L-cancelling and wavedashing weren't part of considering tiers then i can't see fox or falco being up there.. they'd probably be in mid tier somewhere. Sheik and Marth and Peach would remain up there I'd think.


On another note.. I like using Doc. Mario. Just a fun character. Being stunned by the cape (or sheet, whichever you wanna call it) is one of the scariest things to happen to you in that game. Almost like you think you have your second jump and you don't... and you just... freeze.. and by the time you go for your special jump.. it's too late.. Also being cape stunned when your opponent was in throwing motion can almost guarantee a free forward smash (80% chance i'd say) only if you see it in time. I think a lot of this game is based on reaction time. There's a lot 'free' stuff that you can get off your opponent but by the time you notice it was 'free' then it's too late. Next time when you play.. have someone cling onto the edge of a stage at a moderate percent and use the cape as an edge guard. I can almost guarantee they'll panic when they try to do UP+B and it doesn't do anything for quite a while. Other than that.. ummm... the pill is doc mario's best move.. it's a wonderful setup move and in team battles it can help your partner greatly if (s)he's in a jam.

Well.. I guess people can start listing their favorite character and give us any tips on how you play that character or just tidbits that help and etc perhaps?
 
I absolutely love using Samus.

I'm a fair hand at Fox (yes, I agree that without the Shine techs... well, I'd say he's still high tier because of his speed and absolutely badass Usmash and Uair, as well as his throw combos which also rock even without Shine... but Falco only recently became top tier with the invention of pillaring, take that away and he becomes decent but not great), and Marth (his recovery blows, but his power, range, and edgeguarding are absolutely amazing) too.

With Samus I've practiced a lot with the use of missiles. While my timing isn't too good yet with things like short hop missiles or the tournament popular double missile and high/low missile edgeguard, my aim is generally impeccable with them. One of my favourite tricks to do with missiles is counter edgeguarders in between bomb jumps to give me room to recover. With quick backward wavedashes she can do a lot of annoying mindgames with her shoulder tackle, Fsmash, and down tilt. Bomb tricks are fun, too - most people don't know that there is no lag when using bomb jumps, which means the moment she bounces upward, Samus can do anything she wants to. Nair is absolutely her best aerial and a very effective move, especially coming out of a bomb jump.

The ONLY thing I really hate about using Samus is her slow as hell grab. =c
 
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