Thanks to the tanks (Requesting Hate tips)

DarleneFFXI

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Darlene
Its amazing how many little tips can make such a huge difference over time. It may not be as drastic as "Don't wear a jelly ring against a mage mob" but for the rookie tank, just about any tip will be welcome and helpful.

I have leveled Ninja to 37 and Warrior to 42 and learned quite a bit about hate control, etc. I've tanked with two ninjas, with a thief, without a thief and all things between. Some days I felt like I could keep hate from anything, and other days I felt I couldn't keep the attention of a frat boy if offer him free beer. Just about anything a body does affects hate to various degrees, and I learned to spam the various ninja magics and those WAR abilities that mobs seem to hate. I have the +4 emnity from dash sash and the Caz Nez that seem to help a bit.

So what are the tips of hate from the knowing tanks out there, as I take my paladin & ninja to 40.
 
DarleneFFXI said:
Its amazing how many little tips can make such a huge difference over time. It may not be as drastic as "Don't wear a jelly ring against a mage mob" but for the rookie tank, just about any tip will be welcome and helpful.

I have leveled Ninja to 37 and Warrior to 42 and learned quite a bit about hate control, etc. I've tanked with two ninjas, with a thief, without a thief and all things between. Some days I felt like I could keep hate from anything, and other days I felt I couldn't keep the attention of a frat boy if offer him free beer. Just about anything a body does affects hate to various degrees, and I learned to spam the various ninja magics and those WAR abilities that mobs seem to hate. I have the +4 emnity from dash sash and the Caz Nez that seem to help a bit.

So what are the tips of hate from the knowing tanks out there, as I take my paladin & ninja to 40.

pfft. spam provoke it's all u n33d

...

-_- sadly it's like that for most people... <.<;

My DRK is 75, and my PLD is 65, so I've taken both ends of the spectrum, I've dealt the dmg and taken the dmg, tried to keep hate, and tried to keep away from hate...

IMO for PLD's I see a lot of time pt'n with my other jobs or on DRK sparingly... people SPAM all their abilities in the 1st pull... which hey that's nice you've got hate for the full 1st fight, then alls they've got is Voke and heals/flash the next fight, which might do fine if you've got a THF... but a lot of time it wont when you're on a DD heavy PT...

What I've learned to do with PLD is spread my abilities over time, and make it to where maybe I'll Flash > Voke/Defender(I put them both in the same macro, just in-case I might not see it wear and forget to re-use) > and maybe Shield Bash(Depending on the mob type)... Then heal as needed, to keep hate, and flash when it's up

Next pull Flash > Voke/Defender > Sent. > Heal/Flash when possible etc

then Flash > Voke/Defender > Rampart > Heal/Flash etc... and so on... I'll post more in a bit, bells about to ring^^
 
WAR tips:
  1. Don't keep your Dash Sash & Cache-nez equipped. Macro them in for Provoke / Warcry; at all other times, you should have something with more def / better stats (for waist, Warrior's Belt +1 is pretty slick until 43, where Swordbelt +1 owns all).
  2. Warcry is a massive hate-generating tool, when used properly. The trick is to have your entire party gain the attack boost; the more people that gain the boost, the more hate you gain on yourself. If you can hit all 6 members of your party with Warcry, you've created about 1.5x the hate of a single voke.
  3. It is damn near impossible to successfully solo-tank in exp parties as a WAR/NIN. If you're being asked to do so, you can expect to have some problems keeping the mob focussed on you.
  4. WAR evades as well as a parked freight truck, so don't waste your gear slots on +eva.

NIN tanking, I havent gotten very far... plus I have a static THF, so my advice may be ill-fated if you level in pickups.
 
The only really good tip I can give (though it's not a big one), is that MBing the proper Ni nuke and using Ninjutsu debuffs instead of relying on the WHM/BLM/RDM helps grab a small chunk of hate, but I'm sure y'already knew that =/



If y'lose hate and you're sure you're doing your job right, it'd hafto be because someone else isn't doing their job right, wether it be someone overnuking, overcuring, or simply just hitting too hard (which sounds silly, but it really does happen alot in some cases)
 
That's mostly it for PLD, just do what you can, and wear appropriate gear for each mob, or each camp, like you said, don't wear a Jelly Ring against mage mobs :p

As for NIN I was always more of the Off-tank on him, because the PT's I got into had a PLD or WAR for tank... and he's lv 48, I spammed every ninjutsu spell there, and MB'd everything that was possible for me... NIN is a lot about timing over PLD rather than out lasting the mob... that's the most I can give other than show you :p hope it helped^^
 
Mishaela said:
or simply just hitting too hard (which sounds silly, but it really does happen alot in some cases)

I wouldn't call that not doing their job, rather them doing their job too good <.<; And it do happen quite a lot with MNK's XD
 
When I played Pld I did Every ability i had availible to me because they all seemed to get me hate, besides that for pld just have good armor and use flash and provoke as soon as you can.

As for ninja Have Agi+ galore and eva/parry gear, cast as many spells as possible and use voke as often as possible of course.

Using these I never really had any hate problems on either of them.
 
Most tanks will also know about spike and curved hate. Spiked hate is from killing a mob or when mob hits you barley notice it etc. Spike hate you get over a long time and if you die your spiked hate will fall a bit. Curved hate is JA etc what is instant hate but does not stick for the next mob like provoke also on pld do voke> flash not flash> voke as voke opens up a 1.3 something multiplier (sp) of hate tools so flash will get you more hate. This has not been proven but most GOOD plds to use this sort of things and for nin pff only 40 so cant say anything there just GILL= tank there lol
 
Uzor said:
I wouldn't call that not doing their job, rather them doing their job too good <.<; And it do happen quite a lot with MNK's XD

Part of a DD's job being more intriquite than just beating stuff (a 6yr old can do this) is controlling their hate to not screw the tank over.

I learned through VARIOUS beatings that a Nin is not a good tank with an over zealous Samurai with new toys pre 40 ;x (edit I hate that : x = :x -.-)

But sometimes you get those tanks and you can go all out.... other times you spend half the fight staring at your whm or blm.
 
My experience as ninja has been to try and MB as much as possible, and spam what else. I know one time that I couldn't keep any hate, the war in the party (who complained at no end that I was gimped without a nomad mantel of all things) was spamming warcry and everything else so I simply gave up being the tank. There was no helping the mob moving all over the place that time.

My experience as a paladin has.. lol .. been in the dunes. I didn't expect much from it, and was only there to help out a friend. I did keep hate rather well, more due to spamming cure on myself (whm kept curing the healthy blm instead of me) and provoking when needed to keep the mob still. However, now that I've unlocked promy's, I'm thinking of using Paladin for the future CoP missions.

My experiences as a warrior was most enlightening because I wasn't the tank, and one time I really had to work hard to help the paladin to keep the hate. I didn't realize about the number of people getting warcry affected (thank you cmdfly) but I tried to use provoke as little as possible so the PLD could get hate back easier, and even turned my back when needed. The end result was to keep the mob sitting in one spot for the majority of time. As for equipment, I tended to use more attack & accuracy gear than evasion since I never expected to tank, and spammed bolts for extra TP (never seen that sword belt before..lol...I'm always whm in my head when I go shopping).

It appears to me to use the minimum needed to keep hate at any one moment, so you have other gimiks to use later. The big question for me is to spam voke or not to spam voke. I have tried both, but I keep thinking to keep voke in reserve in case a blm or whm suddenly got hate. But does spamming increase the hate or not do anything to it. And does Charisma really affect the strength of Provoke?
 
keep doing voke on a mob it will stack on that mob but that hate does not go onto other mob - curved hate :P there is an all forum i find later for you
 
I've never heard/experienced anything like Spike/Curve hate. A voke is a voke and a flash is a flash. There's no way to sort of "combo it" so that there is a "multiplier" or whatever. And it certainly doesn't carry over to other mobs. If that were the case then you would get better with each mob chain without adjusting your routine and that simply isn't the case.

My hate guide

Here's a good way to think of hate. And from my experience(74 pld) this seems to be THE most accurate theory.

After you effect a mob (heal another player or attempt to strike), you end up on it's hate list. Think of the hate a mob has for a player as a value that slowly ticks down but never gets to zero (as this would constitute no battle and thus no hate at all). Basically, whoever has the highest number among everyone on the hate list is the one who's going to get attacked.

This explains situations where the mob moves "frantically" because what is actually happening is you have 2 or more people with hate values that are ticking down VERY close to each other and constantly changing who has the highest hate level. You can see this in even a more profound way when a mandragora sleeps a party and it's constantly switching between targets even though no one is hitting it.

Now, there are events that either drastically drop or raise a mob's hate. Damage delt, Amount of HP healed by a caster, provoke, etc drastically raise hate (of course the level of hate it adds on varies on what spell/job ability that is used). Taking damage is the big hate reducer (and of course, time).

So, in light of all of that, if you're a DD and you want to lose hate after making a big hit to a mob, your hate will drop much faster if you simply turn around and stop hitting. Not only will it tick down, but you won't get positive values added on from whacking at it.

Ever notice how at later levels it's much easier to pull hate from a blm's MB than a mnk's or sam's WS? It's because the MB is a 1-time hit and afterwards the blm's hate value is consistently decreasing due to the fact that he's never hitting the mob, only taking damage. On the other hand, with a mnk or sam, you get the massive hate spike like a MB, but instead of hate ticking down quickly from time-passed and smacks to the face, it keeps making little jumps back up everytime they hit it.

If you're not sure about any of this, keep this system in mind and pay really close attention to how mobs react in a party (especially in one where your tank sucks and the mob is all over the place).

End hate guide


My PLD tanking guide

Now, as far as a PLD goes... Yes, you want to stagger your "hate tools" so that you don't "blow your wad" on one battle and be left with only flash and voke for the next 5 mins. Here's my usual routine (keep in mind this is for a high level that has all their job abilities):

My whole routine revolves around provoke's 30 second recast timer (so be prepaired to hit alt-J a LOT).

1) - As a mob's coming in, Provoke and imediately Flash (start 30secs)
2) - Sometime in the next 20 secs, get a cure3 off and heal with full potency (meaning make sure you recover the spell's full amount to generate maximum hate).
3) - 10 secs before voke is ready burn either Sentinel, Rampage, or Warcry
4) - 2nd Voke At this point you should have your hate well established.

After that voke goes off every 30 seconds with either Flash or Cure3 inbetween.

If you ration your Warcry, Sentinel, and Rampage to 1 per battle, by the time you get to the 4th fight, the first one you used will be ready again. With this system you also have Shield Bash and Cover ready to go for emergencies.

Oh, and to clarify, Defender doesn't pull hate. It actually impedes on hate because you land a lot less of your hits (which is more important than it seems). I can hold "unflinching" hate with my sword, but I lose it from time to time with Earthstaff. The hate control is seriously like night and day

And if you're in a situation where this system isn't holding for you, I find a Cure4(full potency) will Usually correct it. Again, I realize this system is for someone with all their spells and abilities, but you can scale this down to work at lower levels. It's the same idealogy.

Like I said before, I hit Alt-J like a mad-man to check my voke timer and I usually hit Alt-M and set the cursor to Flash so I can check that timer quickly as well.

And don't be afraid to use your MP. That's the biggest problem I see. A lot of new PLDs are stingy with the mana. Be smart about MP usage, but certainly don't be a miser.

With this style I was able to hold unflinching hate at level 52 against Freeze magic bursts WITHOUT the aid of a thf. You just have to be hungry for hate. The best word I can use to describe it is Busy.

But yeah, I think that's it. Later in the game you start to pick up a lot of enmity+ gear which helps a great deal because that enmity+ gets compounded not only when you use a hate tool, but every time you land a hit.

End PLD tanking guide


EDIT:

It appears to me to use the minimum needed to keep hate at any one moment, so you have other gimiks to use later. The big question for me is to spam voke or not to spam voke. I have tried both, but I keep thinking to keep voke in reserve in case a blm or whm suddenly got hate. But does spamming increase the hate or not do anything to it. And does Charisma really affect the strength of Provoke?

This is a good idea at lower levels because you're not beastly yet and sharing hate with others will keep you alive more often. But as you get higher, generally you want to get into a habit of getting as much hate as you can. Definitely make voke your "heartbeat." If you miss a voke, you should almost "feel" that you missed it. Kinda like real life when you forget something when you leave the house.
 
Last edited:
DarleneFFXI said:
And does Charisma really affect the strength of Provoke?
No. Provoke has no modifiers; the only thing that can increase it's potency is +enmity gear.

Raziella said:
My whole routine revolves around provoke's 30 second recast timer (so be prepaired to hit alt-J a LOT).

[...]


3) - 10 secs before voke is ready burn either Sentinel, Rampage, or Warcry
  1. Listen to Raziella. This dude is hands-down one of, if not the, best PLD I have ever partied with.
  2. He means Rampart, not Rampage.
  3. I do believe it's Ctrl-J for Job Abilities, not Alt-J.
End grammarandbutton nazi mode.
 
well I always {{Voke >ja sentinel/defender. get hit 1-2 times >flash > cure> voke}} then use abilities as needed. you'll get the timing down to a perfection and the system will just roll out every mob. It's a good hate base to start any fight with.

If you voke then flash immediatly the mob is blinded , not taking dmg makes it harder to get an effective cure off , thats why I use voke to /ja , get hit 1-2 times flash to blind it , then it can't interrupt your Cure ;) and 2nd voke ~

shield bash is purely situational, I save it for stuns or when emergency hate is needed.
using flash before a big cure is nice again to prevent interruptions.

Dont make a "/p voke" macro that way you can spam it religiously and not annoy everyone, also I macro'd in the /wait 15 followed by a /echo *****voke ready**** (your the only one who reads the /echo on your screen. =)

be confidant don't ever panic.

I tell whm's to not cure me till I have cast my 1st cure myself.
also make a good cover macro and make it clear if cover is needed , DO NOT go chasing a paniced mage around the camp. make him run his sorry but behind you. ;)

If the mob hits anyone in your PT be sure your the one to cure them. take hate directly from them hate stealing DD's =P the whm should have your back >.>

A good PLD carries juices, au laits. echo drops and holy water.

Understanding hate, how it spikes and curves is the most critical part of Tanking by far. Know what gets hate , how much and how long.

GL :paladin:
 
CmdrFly said:
Listen to Raziella. This dude is hands-down one of, if not the, best PLD I have ever partied with.

awwwww shucks... /blush. :-D Thanks.


CmdrFly said:
He means Rampart, not Rampage.

lol yeah, one day I'll learn to type with my eyes open. ;-)


CmdrFly said:
I do believe it's Ctrl-J for Job Abilities, not Alt-J.

I'm not sure about the PS2 version, but you can use either on PC.

Oh, and dude, that avatar is spectacular! lol Right to the point.
 
Last edited:
i cant give you any good advice, because getting hit is not something that i enjoy, but you'll know that you're an uber tank when you can hold hate on a freeze MB without doing anything.
 
I didn't really read anything because I don't need hate tips lulz.

For war: Don't tank. You'll get the shit beaten out of you if you don't use defender but can't keep hate if you do.

For pld: provoke and flash every chance they're up. Toss out 1-2 cure 3s every fight. You should be good. Use a 5 minute JA only if you lose hate or something.

For nin: provoke when it's up. Use 3 enfeebles. 40-45ish spam the :ni elemental spells. Any passed that and you generally do more damage swinging than being resisted (at least I do as an elvaan. low int high str lol) Eat sushi and if you can buy ochiudo or horamusha kote, they help a lot for hate. Just basically beat the shit out of the mob. Works well for me.
 
Well, the subject as already been covered with a lot of excellent tips.

My two cents :

As a PLD : Voke/JA/flash routine and dont forget to use regurlarly the right cure (no, cure I at 55+ is not enough even as a galka). After that its all MP management. Its generally a good idea to synchronise your spike of hate with the SC/MB (like throwing a big cure just before), its how you can manage ancient magic burst for example. Juts be careful to not accumulate too much hate at the wrong moment when you are in THF (or /THF post 60) setup to allow DD to turn the mob.

As a WAR : Tanking pre 40 as a WAR is easy with /MNK sub (voke/boost/damage). Post 40 it begans to be tricky (/MNK still work for hate but you take a bit too much damage). So it generally rely on a /NIN sub and a good party setup :
- One solution is dual WAR/NIN tank setup ... you'll need some fight to synchronize your hate with the other WAR but after that its one of the best tanking setup in the game (even equal/superior to classical NIN + THF setup on some mobs).
- Other solution is having WAR/NIN + a good stuner/flasher + if possible a BRD. This solution require a good timing in casting ustsusemi for the WAR and will not be as efficient as a NIN tank setup, but can still generate more than reasonable XP (Not a very easy setup to find in pickups though)
 
blazn said:
Most tanks will also know about spike and curved hate. Spiked hate is from killing a mob or when mob hits you barley notice it etc. Spike hate you get over a long time and if you die your spiked hate will fall a bit. Curved hate is JA etc what is instant hate but does not stick for the next mob like provoke also on pld do voke> flash not flash> voke as voke opens up a 1.3 something multiplier (sp) of hate tools so flash will get you more hate. This has not been proven but most GOOD plds to use this sort of things and for nin pff only 40 so cant say anything there just GILL= tank there lol


 
Raziella said:
My hate guide

Here's a good way to think of hate. And from my experience(74 pld) this seems to be THE most accurate theory.

After you effect a mob (heal another player or attempt to strike), you end up on it's hate list. Think of the hate a mob has for a player as a value that slowly ticks down but never gets to zero (as this would constitute no battle and thus no hate at all). Basically, whoever has the highest number among everyone on the hate list is the one who's going to get attacked.

This explains situations where the mob moves "frantically" because what is actually happening is you have 2 or more people with hate values that are ticking down VERY close to each other and constantly changing who has the highest hate level. You can see this in even a more profound way when a mandragora sleeps a party and it's constantly switching between targets even though no one is hitting it.

Now, there are events that either drastically drop or raise a mob's hate. Damage delt, Amount of HP healed by a caster, provoke, etc drastically raise hate (of course the level of hate it adds on varies on what spell/job ability that is used). Taking damage is the big hate reducer (and of course, time).

So, in light of all of that, if you're a DD and you want to lose hate after making a big hit to a mob, your hate will drop much faster if you simply turn around and stop hitting. Not only will it tick down, but you won't get positive values added on from whacking at it.

Ever notice how at later levels it's much easier to pull hate from a blm's MB than a mnk's or sam's WS? It's because the MB is a 1-time hit and afterwards the blm's hate value is consistently decreasing due to the fact that he's never hitting the mob, only taking damage. On the other hand, with a mnk or sam, you get the massive hate spike like a MB, but instead of hate ticking down quickly from time-passed and smacks to the face, it keeps making little jumps back up everytime they hit it.

If you're not sure about any of this, keep this system in mind and pay really close attention to how mobs react in a party (especially in one where your tank sucks and the mob is all over the place).

End hate guide


My PLD tanking guide

Now, as far as a PLD goes... Yes, you want to stagger your "hate tools" so that you don't "blow your wad" on one battle and be left with only flash and voke for the next 5 mins. Here's my usual routine (keep in mind this is for a high level that has all their job abilities):

My whole routine revolves around provoke's 30 second recast timer (so be prepaired to hit alt-J a LOT).

1) - As a mob's coming in, Provoke and imediately Flash (start 30secs)
2) - Sometime in the next 20 secs, get a cure3 off and heal with full potency (meaning make sure you recover the spell's full amount to generate maximum hate).
3) - 10 secs before voke is ready burn either Sentinel, Rampage, or Warcry
4) - 2nd Voke At this point you should have your hate well established.

After that voke goes off every 30 seconds with either Flash or Cure3 inbetween.

If you ration your Warcry, Sentinel, and Rampage to 1 per battle, by the time you get to the 4th fight, the first one you used will be ready again. With this system you also have Shield Bash and Cover ready to go for emergencies.

Oh, and to clarify, Defender doesn't pull hate. It actually impedes on hate because you land a lot less of your hits (which is more important than it seems). I can hold "unflinching" hate with my sword, but I lose it from time to time with Earthstaff. The hate control is seriously like night and day

And if you're in a situation where this system isn't holding for you, I find a Cure4(full potency) will Usually correct it. Again, I realize this system is for someone with all their spells and abilities, but you can scale this down to work at lower levels. It's the same idealogy.

Like I said before, I hit Alt-J like a mad-man to check my voke timer and I usually hit Alt-M and set the cursor to Flash so I can check that timer quickly as well.

And don't be afraid to use your MP. That's the biggest problem I see. A lot of new PLDs are stingy with the mana. Be smart about MP usage, but certainly don't be a miser.

With this style I was able to hold unflinching hate at level 52 against Freeze magic bursts WITHOUT the aid of a thf. You just have to be hungry for hate. The best word I can use to describe it is Busy.

But yeah, I think that's it. Later in the game you start to pick up a lot of enmity+ gear which helps a great deal because that enmity+ gets compounded not only when you use a hate tool, but every time you land a hit.

End PLD tanking guide


EDIT:



This is a good idea at lower levels because you're not beastly yet and sharing hate with others will keep you alive more often. But as you get higher, generally you want to get into a habit of getting as much hate as you can. Definitely make voke your "heartbeat." If you miss a voke, you should almost "feel" that you missed it. Kinda like real life when you forget something when you leave the house.
Nice tips. Couldn't have said it better. =)
 
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