That was easy...TOO easy...

[Alereth]

I'm putting this on the FB simply because I'm griping and not entirely sure if the thread will go one way towards a decent discussion or the other towards a flame.

Someone was shouting for PM 2-5, which is the Mammet fight in Monarch Linn. Normally, this mission is under a level 40 cap, and the climb through Riverne Site #A-01 is fairly challenging. But with the removal of the level cap, I figured I would just try and take this guy up on just my 75 PLD.

I expected the challenge to be toned down a bit. Maybe like Promyvion, have some high level mobs there to stand against higher level players. What I got instead was...well, disappointment.

The climb itself was nothing. We had to farm the two Giant Scales, and the Firedrakes were nothing short of sad. Nothing there aggros high level at all, so we went completely unchallenged all the way to Monarch Linn. I could deal with that for the most part. Kinda felt cheap since it really took alot for a low level group to even make it to the BC, but whatever.

We get into the fight. I'm PLD/RDM and he's WAR/NIN. He's in the cutscene, so I go ahead and buff up (Stoneskin, Blink, Phalanx, Protect IV, Shell III) and charge on in.

Again, I was expecting at least some form of challenge, hoping maybe the battle had been tweaked to still give some sort of threat to any level range. It didn't.

I didn't lose a single Hitpoint the entire battle. They never even broke my stoneskin. And as /RDM, my enfeebs were landing without any resist at all. Silenced them in mage form, blinded them in melee, slowed all three...

Anyways, the point I'm driving at is this: Has this made things TOO easy? From what I understand, Promyvion is the exact same way in that you don't even need a party to beat them anymore. No anima, no setup, no items....

I understand this is kind of what Zilart is like, but I always felt that CoP is when everyone really refined their skills to beat the missions. When doing mammets really required focus, when promyvion was feared because the slightest screw up meant failure.

I'm not against the removal of level caps, but I was expecting the zones to be tweaked to still make it a challenge to succeed.

I really don't know how to put the feeling itself into words other than I feel like the new players are getting cheated out of the experiences we had (good and bad) and that endgame is getting cheated out of players who could have learned extremely valuable lessons in those missions had they still presented some form of difficulty.

 

[Raesvelg]

It's... I won't say complicated, but there are a variety of factors to consider.

On the one hand, the basic missions for CoP are now an utter joke, things you can easily solo with a wide variety of jobs.

On the other hand, a lot of people simply couldn't get the help they needed to do the missions as they were originally. It's not lack of skill that's holding them back; it's lack of assistance, and that can be extremely difficult to get past.

 

[Zaltana]

I always considered CoP to be the expansion that separated the men from the boys. Having done the whole story twice i know what Raes is talking about. It was my second run through the story that got green and stine done with CoP, and my buddy manbeast as well. In the past you needed help to get through the missions or you got nowhere. And its the reason people got nowhere. I'm glad people are finnaly able to reap the benefits of an awesome expansion, one the didn't gimp the game as a whole.

On another note you may be right about people being robbed of the experience of working as a fine honed team to get through CoP like we did. But in all honesty, i seriously doubt they care. Its all about "get the good stuff yesterday" with players these days. SE needs to keep them happy somehow. I'm hanging up my FFXI wings because 14 is coming out. i'm happy to have played this game through its golden years. The SMN burned regects will crumble the game to pieces soon enough even if they hadn't raise the cap.

 

[Hexx]

I agree Zaltana, it took my CoP team a few tries to get past a few of the tougher BCNMs (Omega, I'm looking at you >.>) but it was that much more rewarding to win it in the end due to the challenge each one of these battles posed. I was actually a little sad when it all ended and I saw Promathia go down, all that hard work and a great story to boot, and it was all over /sigh.

 

[K. Ishitar]

from 4-2 to rajas ring in a month last year, lots of favors dirtbags leaving, and some awesome people sticking through

it's fun and i'd do it again for the challenge of getting people together, boss fights, climbs,etc. but not everyone is the same some people like to just chill and enjoy the game and get what they want and cant stick to a strict schedule or do things that come out immediately like most people so they get left behind and neglected. So this is for them which I think they should get, and SE saves some money in the process by keeping people playing just a bit longer for conforming to a smaller population and the customer's needs

 

[Raesvelg]

One of the biggest problem I encountered was getting anyone to take my PLD along on, well, practically ANY of the missions. It was full-on NIN craze at the time, and people often swore that PLD simply couldn't do some of them, or that it would require ridiculous amounts of meds and support.

Those people, of course, were total retards, but they made my CoP progress sporadic at best.

 

[CidBahamut]

Speaking as someone who hasn't even hit the old 75 level cap, I'm kinda miffed about this. My old linkshell did some prommy runs before the server merge and they were a ton of fun. Frustrating as hell, but really one of the more rewarding experiences I've had in this game. I'd love to be able to try to get through CoP while syncing to the old level caps at some point, but I sincerely doubt I could find enough people will to do that with me since you can apparently just blitz it solo with your eyes closed now.

I wanted to walk in waist deep snow uphill both ways, but noooo....

 

[Alereth]

Just finished doing the Aquaducts mission with a friend. All the fear is pretty much gone. Sure, you have to watch out for Mortal Ray, but you can take on multiple Tauri and not break a sweat. As far as Bronze Key farming off fomoros go, that still sucks, but only cause the drop rate still sucks. You can empty full rooms of Fomor before another respawns. And now I have more subligar than I know what to do with. o.o

 

[Bajaratt]

One of the biggest problem I encountered was getting anyone to take my PLD along on, well, practically ANY of the missions. It was full-on NIN craze at the time, and people often swore that PLD simply couldn't do some of them, or that it would require ridiculous amounts of meds and support.

Those people, of course, were total retards, but they made my CoP progress sporadic at best.

My group actually used a paladin for most of the fights. This was way back before all of the major nerfing though, but we had far better luck with a PLD than a NIN tank for almost everything.

 

[Raesvelg]

My group actually used a paladin for most of the fights. This was way back before all of the major nerfing though, but we had far better luck with a PLD than a NIN tank for almost everything.

I did mine around the same time, and people just refused to take PLDs along.

Yet ironically I repeated missions far fewer times than most of the people who refused to take me.

 

[Alereth]

I did mine around the same time, and people just refused to take PLDs along.

Yet ironically I repeated missions far fewer times than most of the people who refused to take me.

Not to mention that when people went back to do missions again, they always opted for a PLD the second time. And the Storms of Fate mission cracked me up. NIN was all the rage for that til they realized a PLD/NIN could take it a step further.

 

[Tim Wakefield]

It took me like 4 years and about 15 different groups of people to get me through CoP. I literally think I did every mission with a different group of people. My constantly changing schedule and lack of play time left plenty of groups happy to do one mission with me and then leave me in the dust many, many times, and I could never commit to a static because of the same reasons. It sucked, and I would never wish that type of torture on anybody to get through these missions. I know alot of people are bitter that they worked their ass off to get through these, but I'm certainly not a member of that group. I had fun doing them, and they clearly don't hold the same level of enjoyment (and frustration) uncapped now, but if all you're interested in is getting the ring and Sea access at the end, then I say more power to you!

 

[Tagrineth]

from 4-2 to rajas ring in a month last year, lots of favors dirtbags leaving, and some awesome people sticking through

it's fun and i'd do it again for the challenge of getting people together, boss fights, climbs,etc. but not everyone is the same some people like to just chill and enjoy the game and get what they want and cant stick to a strict schedule or do things that come out immediately like most people so they get left behind and neglected. So this is for them which I think they should get, and SE saves some money in the process by keeping people playing just a bit longer for conforming to a smaller population and the customer's needs

This, this, this. Ugh, that was such an ordeal. So much bullshit.

You guys have to remember one huge detail.

CoP is stupid easy now, but

with the level cap going up, we're going to start seeing better gear in every slot. Pretty soon, Sky, CoP, the land kings, Einherjar, Limbus, Salvage... it'll all be totally irrelevant unless SE completely re-does all the loot tables, or enhances the gear for higher levels (currently NOT looking likely).

So yeah, now people can practically solo the whole fuckin thing and get their Rajas or Tamas (or shit even Sattva) Ring, but so what? Once the level cap goes up to 85-90, they'll start becoming borderline obsolete most likely in favour of newer, better rings. Yeah the CoP rings were designed to be scalable but they only scale up to 75.

I mean shit by level 85-90 an RDM will probably end up soloing Kirin or some similar bullshit feat. Yay, they can enjoy their Osode-that's-been-useless-since-2004-and-people-will-finally-REALIZE-IT.

I'm sure SE will come up with some other new missions the next time they actually make a full expansion (hopefully they will after Abyssea... if they don't then we can probably write the concept off for good), and maybe they'll be idiotically hard like CoP was, until then, who gives a shit?

 

[Tagrineth]

Also, to add to that, you've gotta remember - it got steadily easier anyway, so only the people that did it the first month it was out got the "full experience" of IT+++++++++++++ mob hell in Promyvions and such. The early adopters had the hardest time, period. The earlier you go for something, the bigger the reward will end up being (since you're ahead of the curve), so it's hardest then. It's similar to buying a brand new video game or game console for $60 or $600 (lolPS3).

I don't see anyone bitching that they paid $50 (or $100, lolPS2) when FFXI came out only for it to be $5 with four expansions now, or that they bought a PS3 for $600 on launch but it's $300 now, etc etc. Why bitch that you sweated for your Rajas Ring three years ago when any schmuck can get it now? Three years ago it was a big fucking deal to have one. Now everyone who plays more than an hour a week probably has one anyway, and it's nowhere near as huge a difference as it used to be anyway so MEH.

 

[Alereth]

While I agree with you both on how the reward gear is going to be vastly obsolete, I am referring more towards the experience. CoP was some of the best and worst times of my FFXI career. But I have no problem admitting it really helped me define what job I was best at, my playstyle, how I deal with people, my skill as a tank and various little skills like dodging aggro, conserving items, proper 2 hour use and a hell of alot more.

I like my ring for one reason its a symbol of accomplishment. But really the value of that is diminished now since (as you said) nearly everyone has one. But the amazing feeling of coordinating a Promyvion-Holla run, stocked up on anima, charging in and decimating the BCNM after everyone goes on about how horrible it is, or the feeling of plowing through the last 3 missions to finally get the ending, or the feeling from finally beating the Airship mission are just too amazing of feelings because of the level of difficulty that was associated with them.

And because of those missions, you could build friendships, rivalries or downright enemies. But it was all a part of the over-encompassing experience that really gave you that feeling of "Damn!"

 

[Zaltana]

Yay, they can enjoy their Osode-that's-been-useless-since-2004-and-people-will-finally-REALIZE-IT.

yes a body piece that gives you 10 points to all stats is totally useless. guess my ranger has been doing it wrong all this time.

that attitude is another poison that's kills a game's fun factor.

 

[K. Ishitar]

really I see people with good gear all the time and still screw up on bandwagon jobs, they can keep getting the gear; it'll still pale to the person who can use it properly

 

[etchdog2000]

I would say yes. Its too easy. As all these people stated, finishing CoP actually used to be an accomplishment. If you finished CoP it used to mean that you were more then likely a good player. My group spent millions of gil on meds and such for those fights. Promy Holla boss was crazy hard. Pretty much doomed if you did it w/o a SMN. My group was the first I knew of that beat it w/o a SMN. That shit was years ago and I still remember the little details. You pretty much needed experienced people or a static to get it done. As difficult as it was to get CoP done, it was probably the most rewarding challenge in this game. I to this day think CoP was the only Mission set they got correct.

The thing is, imo, they killed CoP long ago making it so easy. Now they just made it a cakewalk and im sure they did it for the same reasons everyone has been saying. Its old content, period. Its a shame they robbed some people of that feeling of accomplishment that alot of us old timers got when beating CoP, but again, that happend way before this past update.

 

[Tagrineth]

yes a body piece that gives you 10 points to all stats is totally useless. guess my ranger has been doing it wrong all this time.

that attitude is another poison that's kills a game's fun factor.

Base stats are literally half as useful as derived stats. RNG is like the only job (unless you count pulling BRD...) that genuinely benefits from Osode at all, and even then there are better, easier-to-obtain body pieces for all situations.

It's not really a poison, the problem is that Osode takes a shitload of work to obtain when there are enormously easier to obtain pieces that do a better job... and even back in the day when the only other options were expensive to purchase, it was really sad seeing someone wear an Osode over say a Hauberk when it's not hard to SELL THE OSODE AND BUY A DAMN HAUBERK. and still have gil left over. kthx

 

[jyakotsu]

I did mine around the same time, and people just refused to take PLDs along.

Yet ironically I repeated missions far fewer times than most of the people who refused to take me.

I did COP w/ Achates back before the first edit to COP making it easier. We had him come PLD to almost everything. I had a blast doing COP w/ them and it was one of my favorite memories of FFXI.

I think our setup for most of the fights were PLD RNG BLM BLM RDM WHM. It was definitely not the best setup, funny thing is... I think the only time we failed a mission was on Omega.