The Age of Stupid

Morcheeba

Buaidh no Bàs
Adventurer
Joined
Jan 9, 2007
Messages
4,070
Age
44
Location
G.W.N.
FFXIV
Morcheeba
I watched this drama last night called 'The Age of Stupid' About the increase in green house gases and the effects thus far as well as the requirement to keep the global temp max at 2 degrees and a steady decline that's required to keep from total global meltdown. A lot of people here are much more informed on the actual effects but I have to say this drama seemed to have some merit. It also was enough for me to worry about my child's children if/when she chooses to have some of her own.

Apparently by 2015 if our individual/global output hasn't begun a steady decrease in the amount of emissions in 40 years time we'll be in a world of trouble. And it made me think... so many people call all the green house worries unfounded.. but I'm not so sure they're correct. We can only do so much harm before it makes drastic consequences for us all. The thing is, the effects will supposedly speed up more and more over the years to come. So to look back (keeping in mind the fear factors and melodramatic bs media tries to spoon feed us) at the number of natural disasters happening that much closer to home, it makes sense. I've lived here my whole life, and in the last 10-15 years the seasons have changed drastically, natural occurrences that never used to cross the average southern Ontarian's mind has changed drastically because we're experiencing that much more.

Tell me your thoughts.

http://www.spannerfilms.net/films/ageofstupid

I see that this was released back in '09. So I won't be surprised if this is old news to most of you.
 
Posting from my phone, so it'll be rather brief.

Fundamentally, the people who doubt the more dire predictions have good reason to do so. The current and projected CO2 levels are, in fact, nothing special in the grand scheme of things. There's even some measure of doubt as to the exact scale of the problem and the potential causes of it; not only has CO2 been significantly higher in the fossil record, it has seen at least a few massive spontaneous drops, typically accompanied by mass extinctions.

Which does pull into question the whole correlation/causation issue with CO2...

For myself, I'm skeptical of everything, and anthropogenic global warming is no exception.
 
Last edited:
Also, one must consider the fact that the Earth naturally goes through continuous heating and cooling cycles on its own. For example, around the turn of the last millennium, global temperatures were higher than they are now. In fact, there is evidence that shows there were types of plants growing in Britain in the 1100's, I believe, that cannot be grown there today because the climate is too cold.

And about the correlation between CO2 levels and global temperatures, I can remember there being a chart posted in a previous thread on the subject some time ago that showed CO2 levels increasing AFTER temperatures rose. I'll have to do some digging to see if I can find it.
 
Well yeah, it only makes sense. If the planet releases CO2 naturally as it is, and we're adding a substantial amount, after the temp raises so much, that much MORE CO2 will be released it will cause a snowball effect, no?

Don't get me wrong, I want to hear all that has to be offered on the subject. I just don't know (nor fully understand) the details surrounding this topic. But I look at the changes I can account for in the last few decades, and they've been pretty big.
 
Last edited:
Well yeah, it only makes sense. If the planet releases CO2 naturally as it is, and we're adding a substantial amount, after the temp raises so much, that much MORE CO2 will be released it will cause a snowball effect, no?

In theory, yes.

In practice... Not so much.

Hence some people doubt over the correlation/causation question when it comes to CO2. The problem comes in when, as I said, you consider that for the majority of the history of the planet, CO2 levels were, in fact, much higher than they are today.

And we still had glaciers.

Now, local temperature variations could account for that. Or maybe not. Paleoclimatology is difficult, to be honest. Records like tree rings are notoriously inconsistent, ice cores are half-decent snapshot of local atmospheric conditions, but on the whole, a lot of it is... well... guesswork.

Don't get me wrong, I want to hear all that has to be offered on the subject. I just don't know (nor fully understand) the details surrounding this topic. But I look at the changes I can account for in the last few decades, and they've been pretty big.

Part of the problem is that changes in the last few decades all seem very important to us, since it's during the period in which we have taken the most precise measurements, had the best record keeping, and so on, but measured against the life of the planet, and the known timescales for things like periods of major glaciation, it's utterly insignificant.

We've been keeping accurate temperature readings, really accurate ones, where the sort of changes that are being discussed in terms of global warming, for less than 300 years. Probably less than 200 for widespread measurements.

Ice ages seem to operate on 100,000 year cycles of late.

Of late, that's the kicker. The 100,000 year cycle has only really been in evidence for the last million years or so, and that's almost as insignificant to the total life of the planet as 20 years.

Incidentally, part of the problem that some people have with anthropogenic global warming theory is that, when you look at this broad cycles, the local warm period is right on schedule. The planet, in theory, is supposed to be warm right now... and we don't really understand why.

Incidentally, my personal stance is as follows; We are in the middle of climate change, because we are always in the middle of climate change. If you take the long view, the climate has never been stable indefinitely, and in fact has observable cycles of warming and cooling without so much as the existence of humans, much less human machines. However, humans may well be exerting influence on the speed and severity of that change, but it is not relevant to the path I personally feel we should be taking. The transition to cleaner, more sustainable forms of energy is a net benefit in too many ways regardless of any potential mitigation it may, or may not, have on the climate change we are currently experiencing.
 
Last edited:
Part of the problem to is the some scientist that have been caught red handed tampering with and altering a data to try and make the global warming case.

The University of East Anglia case comes to mind.

I agree with reas, there are many good reasons outside of global warming or climate change or we/ you wanna call it, to transition to cleaner renewable energy sources.

Just keep in mind there any many poised to make a whole lot of money, and other politicians poised to gain a whole lot of power, over spreading panic about climate change. oh and its nothing new, you can find all kinds of magazine and newspaper covers from the 1970s warning of a coming ice age and blaming a rash of tornadoes on "global cooling"
 
Tampering is such a strong word... Manipulating is more fair, to be honest.

The problem is that there are a few bit of global warming evidence that do not support their claims, in a broad sense. So they go out of their way to downplay the Medieval Warm Period, they figure out a way to explain the relatively stable temperatures through the 60's and 70's, and they massage the data as best they can to present a clear case for global warming.

It's bad science, frankly, but that's never stopped people in the past.

Part of the problem, of course, is that we're looking at an incredibly vast and complicated system, where we don't even understand all the variables, much less how they interact.

Take the economy, for example. (Please, ba dum tish.)

We can't really predict what that will do reliably, and it's much simpler than the climate.

In fact, when you think about it, economists and climatologists have an awful lot in common. Both can look at the data from the past, and discern patterns from it. Both can see that some correlative factors that they believe may have strong causative links with certain outcomes. And both of them like to imagine that they can understand and predict something that is vastly more complex than any human could manage.

Now, in the next few decades, we'll likely have computers that could manage it, to an extent. Assuming we can handle the programming, lol.
 
Details aside, I've never really bought into end of day theories. I just wrestle with the fact that only so much harm can be done before it has it's lasting dramatic effects. How much merit is there in the documentaries, theories and dramas being out out there for us to see?

The number of daily flights, rocket launches, something will eventually have to give? Pretty much, there's the natural progress of our climate, temps up and down throughout the centuries, but if we've boosted the teetering scales so much so, won't it cause a breaking point? Will it not cause a shift far to quick to sustain a healthy planet?

I worry about what life my grandchildren would have, and yours.. if there's something we could be doing (more so) with the technology we have to avoid, basically, the extinction or utter destruction of our kind and our planet, gods creatures .. all from sacrifices, we should!

E - I feel a little silly not having much to contribute.
 
Last edited:
The notion of apocalyptic climate change from which there is no recovery is rather flawed. Have there been transitions like that in the planet's history?

Absolutely.

Have they been accompanied by mass extinctions?

Absolutely.

Are we on the road to another such event?

Probably not.

To put things in perspective: The Eocene-Oligocene extinction event is one of the more recent in geologic history, occurring a little over 30 million years ago. While nobody is entirely sure what caused it, climate change, specifically in the form of rapid cooling, is the suspected culprit. Atmospheric CO2 levels appear to have plunged during the event, dropping from as much as 1500ppm down to less than half that.

Climate in the Eocene was... fairly uniform, to be honest, and not some horrible deathtrap in which every living thing struggled to survive. It was on average warmer than the climate is today, of course, but peak temperatures were not that much higher. What caused the extinction event was the cooling of the planet, in this instance, which took place relatively rapidly and for reasons that, as usual, are not fully understood.

The theory is that the rapid cooling of the planet altered the ecology sufficiently that Asian species fared better than their European counterparts, and subsequently moved in and forced their less-adapted cousins out of their respective niches. But it's just a theory, and we could well discover somewhere down the road that the cause was something completely different. It seems to hold up though, given that the E-O extinction event was fairly minor compared to any of the big 5.

Anyhoo.

Events like the E-O extinction are one of those things that make people question the causative links between CO2 levels and global warming. It raises the idea that the planet either has some means of rapidly reducing CO2 concentrations, or the CO2 levels are a result of global warming, rather than a cause of it.

Or both of those things, or neither.

It's complicated.

Either way, it does undermine the more hysterical theories about runaway global warming, in which we'll all be breaking out our stillsuits and calling for Shai-hulud if we don't slash our carbon emissions to zero.

The Spice must flow.

Ahem.

Think I just figured out my next blog topic, though it might not be what you're thinking.

And I digress again.

The point remains that if a natural system can sequester more than twice the CO2 as currently exists in the atmosphere quickly enough to cause mass extinctions as creatures are unable to adapt to the changing climate... it's rather hubristic to think that we, as humans, can have quite the same effect in either direction.

We are, of course, in the middle of an extinction event, that has been going on pretty much since the first time a guy figured out how to tie a sharp rock onto the end of a long stick. But that's been a rather slow, drawn out event, not the sharp demarcation that we expect to see from rapid climatic shifts.

It has, however, been ranked on the same sort of severity as what was seen in the E-O extinction event. The one where ~800ppm of CO2 just up and goes away in a godawful hurry.

It's nothing compared to the Permian-Triassic extinction event, which wiped out like 80-90% of all the species on the planet. Of course, that had little issues like the Siberian Lava Traps, where half the freaking continent of Asia was covered in molten rock for a million years.

I exaggerate somewhat, to be honest. It was only around 5% of the landmass of the continent. In deference to Cheebs, roughly the size of Ontario and British Columbia combined.

Covered in lava.

The immensity of this problem makes my head hurt, lol.
 
I appreciate the brain strain all the same =)

And I understand all that it is you explained. Are we arrogant to believe that we can cause enough of a change to force erratic shifts in climate?

E - What I mean is, if there is already a shift slowly happening, a natural one, can our contribution not make a difference?
 
Last edited:
That's a good question, and the answer is, of course, yes. Our contributions certain can make a difference, and they probably are. The follow-up question is "How much of what is happening is our fault?", and that one is tougher to answer.

We were right on schedule for a warming period, is the thing, and most climate scientists acknowledge this fact. What we don't fully understand is why the climate warms, why we have these long-term and short-term warming and cooling periods, and what variables are significant.

To elaborate: As I mentioned previously, at the moment we're in the 100,000 year cycle, and have been for about the past million years. Within that cycle, about every 100,000 years or so, the planet goes from cold, to hot, and back to cold again. Within that 100,000 years, we also have several other smaller cycles operating within the general constraints of the bigger cycle. Prior to the 100,000 year cycle, we had a faster cycle, probably due to the continents being in a different configuration. That cycle lasted about two million years.

If you look at geological temperature records, which are more like guesswork admittedly but have at least some basis in science, then you see an even bigger cycle taking place over about 150 million years.

Anyhoo.

If you look at the 100,000 year cycle, we're right on track for a warm period, and have been since long before humans started burning hydrocarbons on a massive scale. Of course, if you look at the last 60 million years or so out of that 150 million year cycle, we're in the middle of a cold period, which is why we have all these lovely ice caps that we can drill down into to see core readings for the last million years or so. For about 40 million years prior to that, we didn't have them. At all.

A big concern of the more apocalyptic visions of climate change are the so-called "tipping points", in which climate change can seemingly become extremely rapid. The Permian-Triassic extinction event was theoretically caused by one of those; runaway global warming that heated the planet sufficiently quickly that most life was simply unable to adapt quickly enough, and massive die-offs shattered the ecosystem.

The problem with the tipping point concept is that nobody has any idea where those tipping points are, or how bad things have to get before one of them kicks in.

The other thing to remember is that we're still here; prior evidence suggests that, no matter how bad things get, it's not like we're going to end up as another Venus, despite what some utter hysterics like to preach.
 
Huh. I guess what I was seeing or rather hearing in the drama was the 2 degrees mentioned is a tipping point like you mentioned. Or at least that's how it sounds now that you've elaborated.

It's just one of those things that I suppose we all have to worry about to some degree. It would be beyond ridiculous if we were to play a large enough role to climate change that ended up destroying all chances for people to come. ESPECIALLY if we did and do have the means to avoid such a thing.

I can remember seeing dooms day specials as a young girl and being scared silly. I didn't understand what was being said passed 'catastrophe in '93', as an example, but it was enough to frighten me. Of course years later there are more important worries, but our survival does play an important enough role that if enough people seem to be very dedicated to turning the tables, it says something to me.

Meh, zombies will eat us before then anyway right!
 
Well... Suffice to say that it seems... unlikely, to me at least, that we'll hit that sort of catastrophic tipping point. The P-T extinction event is believed to have required a variety of factors, including one of the largest sustained volcanic eruptions in the history of the planet, to push things that far. A more modest climate shift is possible, but even then, we're talking about changes taking place over thousands of years; we won't be using fossil fuels for much more than another couple hundred, at our current rate of technological advancement, at least not on a massive scale.

Which is part of my concern with the doomsayers, really. Yes, the issue needs addressing, yes, a transition to a more sustainable energy system is in the best interests of all parties involved (save for the oil-rich countries, but I honestly don't particularly care about them that much), but I seriously doubt that we'll hit that sort of tipping point where the world as we know it will come to an end in the next hundred years, or even in the next two hundred years.

Just being aware of the problem, in the long term, should be enough to resolve it.
 
To expound somewhat: There is a faction among the... not climate-change doubters, but call them climate-change conservatives, who feel that we'd be better off trying to bring up the rest of the world to a 1st world standard of living and technology, rather than doing what we are effectively encouraging with the whole "carbon credit" concept.

By creating a world where people are almost universally "rich" (at least by the standards of history), we can create a world where people are much more prepared to deal with the sort of climate change we can likely expect in the future.

I don't like the idea of buying carbon credits; to be honest, I see vast potential for abuse in a system like that. On the one hand, it does encourage polluters to reduce their pollution. On the other hand, it perversely encourages third-world nations to stay poor, and quite probably corrupt.

How so?

Let's say I'm a polluter. I need to acquire credits to cover my carbon emissions, so I buy them from some third-world country that doesn't have much industrial presence.

The problems here largely revolve around who I'm buying from, and have two root causes. On the one hand, by creating a market for carbon, we create an incentive for countries to either industrialize in a "green" fashion, or to simply forgo the process. Given the current costs associated with green tech (which are extremely high, relative to, say, coal power), it's more likely that a country would simply choose to give up on the credit market rather than maintain a marketable surplus.

On the other hand, most third-world countries have severe problems with corruption in government. And a carbon market is, in effect, similar to the oil market; by creating an asset in which a government can, in effect, make money with minimal effort, you encourage them to do so in a fashion that is thoroughly corrupt.

My worst-case scenario for carbon credits is the creation of client states where dictators forcibly keep industry (and, as a side effect, standard of living) to a minimum in order to maximize the amount of easy money they can funnel into their pockets by trading carbon credits.

It hasn't gotten that bad yet, but the potential is there.

To make things more complicated, of course, there's another, far more massive problem looming in the wings. If we don't make the carbon market extremely lucrative (and we probably won't, since it's mostly just there to make people feel better), then the third world is going to industrialize. It's inevitable.

And when they do, there's a very good chance that they'll take the same path that everyone else has taken; coal power. Coal is cheap, and it's easy. Sure, you can slap carbon-sequestration equipment onto it, but that costs money, and there's little incentive.

China, for example, often gets lauded by green energy enthusiasts for being the largest producer of solar panels in the world. Only problem is, China isn't using those panels; it's selling them to the West, and using the money to... build more coal-fired power plants.

As the rest of the world industrializes, are we going to enforce environmental restrictions on them? Who will do this enforcing, and how? China is already the leading CO2 producer in the world, has been for several years, and they are just getting started, really.

If you consider that the goal is a standard of living with rough parity to that enjoyed in the West... China, unless it begins to install significant amounts of alternative energy, will probably at least double its emissions over time, barring a sudden collapse of Chinese prosperity.

If we do passively encourage the rest of the world to take the easy path to wealth, then all of our efforts to reduce emissions are fundamentally meaningless.
 
Last edited:
I'll try and provide some facts for both sides of the argument.

Posting from my phone, so it'll be rather brief.

Fundamentally, the people who doubt the more dire predictions have good reason to do so. The current and projected CO2 levels are, in fact, nothing special in the grand scheme of things. There's even some measure of doubt as to the exact scale of the problem and the potential causes of it; not only has CO2 been significantly higher in the fossil record, it has seen at least a few massive spontaneous drops, typically accompanied by mass extinctions.

Which does pull into question the whole correlation/causation issue with CO2...

For myself, I'm skeptical of everything, and anthropogenic global warming is no exception.
CO2 levels has been higher in fossil records, yes, but it has also been linked to a great catastrophe of that time. For example; the mass extinction of Dinosaurs where whole continents were burning. The eruption of Yellowstone, the eruption of Toba, etc. Most of these have also been linked to an Ice Age following slightly afterwards, though. Ther're not "normal" spikes per-se; they're usually caused by a drastic event.

Also, one must consider the fact that the Earth naturally goes through continuous heating and cooling cycles on its own. For example, around the turn of the last millennium, global temperatures were higher than they are now. In fact, there is evidence that shows there were types of plants growing in Britain in the 1100's, I believe, that cannot be grown there today because the climate is too cold.
I haven't read said evidence, and I'd like to read those articles if you can find them.
And about the correlation between CO2 levels and global temperatures, I can remember there being a chart posted in a previous thread on the subject some time ago that showed CO2 levels increasing AFTER temperatures rose. I'll have to do some digging to see if I can find it.
If you don't know the inner workings of how CO2 levels work, then one might claim this is proof that Global Warming is false. However, it is only natural that CO2 levels raise after the temperature increases if you know how water solutes CO2. Cold water can contain more CO2 than warm water. Thus, as the temperature raises, the water temperature rises along with it. As the water heats up, it releases more CO2 in to the atmosphere - causing the temperature to further raise.

This also has a natural break so it doesn't snowball out of effect - as the temperature raises, more water evaporates, which leads to more water in the atmosphere. This causes more rain, and allows rain to travel to places where it normally doesn't rain - mainly Africa. As rain now falls on places it normally doesn't, it allows plants to grow where they normally can't. The new plants help with lowering the overall CO2 levels in the atmosphere. This, stacked with the fact that rain takes CO2 from the atmosphere with it down to the ground, where it is absorbed by the mud. The new plants stacked with increased rain both work towards lowering the CO2 levels of the earth, once again cooling it.

In addition to this; more open water means more heat that's absorbed - which is somewhat countered by the addition of more clouds; which is the direct opposite of water in that it's the most reflective surface on earth (as it consists of snow).

Hence some people doubt over the correlation/causation question when it comes to CO2. The problem comes in when, as I said, you consider that for the majority of the history of the planet, CO2 levels were, in fact, much higher than they are today.

And we still had glaciers.

Now, local temperature variations could account for that. Or maybe not. Paleoclimatology is difficult, to be honest. Records like tree rings are notoriously inconsistent, ice cores are half-decent snapshot of local atmospheric conditions, but on the whole, a lot of it is... well... guesswork.
No. During the modern earth (as in, the last few million years since complex life forms started walking the earth) CO2 levels has not been overall much higher than it is today. It fluxuates with time. Only once has Earth been a snowball (meaning covered with ice from pole to pole), and never has all ice been gone.

Yes, Earth is naturally supposed to be in a warmer period right now. However, the DANGER is with the EXTRA CO2 that we humans produce. Fact of the matter is, the climate is EXTREMELY complex. We can't accurately predict how the normal warm period of Earth stacked with the extra CO2 that we humans produce will affect the earth in the future. We don't know if the Earth's normal safeguards will be enough to counter what we humans produce. Normally CO2 levels raise slowly over a long time. But right now it raises quicker than normal. The only other times it has spiked quick is after catastrophes such as huge volcanic eruptions. Will the glaciers smelt? If they do, the ocean levels might raise by between 1 and 30 meters depending on the severity - which will cause great catastrophes in many parts of the world, where entire nations may end up on the bottom of oceans.

Tampering is such a strong word... Manipulating is more fair, to be honest.

The problem is that there are a few bit of global warming evidence that do not support their claims, in a broad sense. So they go out of their way to downplay the Medieval Warm Period, they figure out a way to explain the relatively stable temperatures through the 60's and 70's, and they massage the data as best they can to present a clear case for global warming.

It's bad science, frankly, but that's never stopped people in the past.

Part of the problem, of course, is that we're looking at an incredibly vast and complicated system, where we don't even understand all the variables, much less how they interact.

Take the economy, for example. (Please, ba dum tish.)

We can't really predict what that will do reliably, and it's much simpler than the climate.

In fact, when you think about it, economists and climatologists have an awful lot in common. Both can look at the data from the past, and discern patterns from it. Both can see that some correlative factors that they believe may have strong causative links with certain outcomes. And both of them like to imagine that they can understand and predict something that is vastly more complex than any human could manage.

Now, in the next few decades, we'll likely have computers that could manage it, to an extent. Assuming we can handle the programming, lol.
Quite honestly, you can't trust any source. The anti-global warming nuts are just as guilty as the pro-global warming nuts in manipulating data. It's not something solely isolated to one side.

To put things in perspective: The Eocene-Oligocene extinction event is one of the more recent in geologic history, occurring a little over 30 million years ago. While nobody is entirely sure what caused it, climate change, specifically in the form of rapid cooling, is the suspected culprit. Atmospheric CO2 levels appear to have plunged during the event, dropping from as much as 1500ppm down to less than half that.
It's not the most recent; the latest extinction happened a mere 30000-60000 years ago when mankind almost went extinct. We went from a booming population to a mere 10000 individuals - which can be seen by comparing genetic data. But yes; it's the last "major" extinction event.

Events like the E-O extinction are one of those things that make people question the causative links between CO2 levels and global warming. It raises the idea that the planet either has some means of rapidly reducing CO2 concentrations, or the CO2 levels are a result of global warming, rather than a cause of it.
It's both, actually. As I said earlier; oceans are what controls the climate. The most prominent evidence of this is El Niño and El Niña. During one, the temperature raises by a few degrees on average - sometimes for a few years - while the other reduces the temperature slightly. El Niña actually see an average temperature drop of 3-5 degrees from the average, while El Niño raises the temperature by 3-5 degrees.

Look at how different the world would be without the Gulf. Sweden, Norway and Finland would be like Siberia and mostly uninhabitable. It would be covered in an ice sheet, and the glacier would crawl much lower than it is today. During almost every major climate shift (and it is one of the reasons as to why the last extinction you talked about happened) is a combination between, say La Niña and a stream change.

There's also several other factors to take in to consideration that can cause a climate change; the earth's axis tilt, distance from the sun, sun activity, moon's distance from the earth, polar location, core spin, tectonics, geoactivity. All of these can, under the wrong/right circumstances, cause a climate change.

Look at is as funnel; depending on the water flow, it'll remain at at a equal level. Increase the water flow (as in, more conditions get added or increased) and water level will increase. With enough conditions (or each condition is stronger, such as more and more CO2 levels) and the water will flow over and cause a climate change. On the other hand, not enough conditions will also cause a climate change by emptying the funnel.

Look at Venus and Mars; they're both in the Goldilocks zone - that is the zone that's "just right" - however, neither of them can support life as we know it- on Venus, the funnel emptied and stay emptied; causing it to be way too hot. Mars on the other hand overflowed; causing it to be too cold. It's a shame too - Venus is the only other planet in the Goldilocks zone which has shown evidence of Tectonic activity. The only other body we know of is the moon Titan - which is way outside the Goldilocks zone.

It's quite sad that if you do a google search, the only sites you'll find are either strongly for or strongly against global warming. Sadly, the same goes for scientists. It's either doomsday prophecies or "It's all lies". If you have any questions I'll try to answer them neutrally, though.

Fact of the matter is, I personally believe global warming to be true. I do not, however, believe it to be as serious as a lot of people make it seem to be. It is also, in no way, negligable. It's better imo to play it safe, just in case it is of significance, as the people that will get hurt by it are our future generations and not us. It's easy to say "Well, who cares? Won't affect me". But consider this; Would you be happy if your previous generations fucked up your life and left you to clean up the mess? If it DOES matter, it's better to start preventing it now, instead of leaving it to future generations when it may be too late. There's only one life form in all of Earth's history that has managed to change the climate before, and on top of that cause an extinction of 99% of all life forms; and that's the Algae that started producing oxygene. Will humans be the next one?

That being said; mass extinctions aren't necessarily a bad thing. Throughout all of evolution, max extinction has ALWAYS been a good thing. It's like a mass wipe of failed creatures - allowing only the successful and strong ones to spread their genes. Each and every mass extinction has resulted in an evolutionary prime with even more creatures that are more successful and stronger than ever before. I don't see how that's a bad thing. I truly believe humans are strong enough as a species to survive a mass extinction, and emerge stronger than before.

It may be unethical and immoral to say, but there's too many of us on earth, and this damned pampering needs to stop ;)

Edit: Raesvaelg; it's unfair to blame CO2 emissions on China. The REASON China's emission is so large is because of the Western world. We all have this "deal" that we need to lower our CO2 emission by X% before Y date. But instead of modernizing our factories, we move them to China - which actually leads to an overall higher emission rate because the factories aren't as modern. Yes - we lower our own emission, but we're directly responsible for an increase in China's emission. Technically, that's still our emission as the factory is ours. China's OWN emission isn't very high at all if you look at the emission/population for what China produce for themselves.

I can fully understand why China refuse to sign a paper to lower their emission rate by X% - and instead plan to increase their own emission - when you consider that they produce almost everything for the entire modernized world. Signing such deals means that they'd have to stop their own modernization and stop producing things for themselves, as there's no way in hell the Western world would allow them to close their productions in China. All in all, signing such a deal would be bad - not only for China, but for the whole world, as China's modernization means they can afford to upgrade and improve not only their fabrics (resulting in less emission from production and also more effective and faster production), but also their cars and every other facet of life, which would overall lower their CO2 emission in a foreseeable future.
 
Last edited:
CO2 levels has been higher in fossil records, yes, but it has also been linked to a great catastrophe of that time. For example; the mass extinction of Dinosaurs where whole continents were burning. The eruption of Yellowstone, the eruption of Toba, etc. Most of these have also been linked to an Ice Age following slightly afterwards, though. Ther're not "normal" spikes per-se; they're usually caused by a drastic event.

Untrue. Most evidence suggests that, for the vast majority of the planet's lifespan even after the rise of photosynthetic organisms, CO2 levels were significantly higher than they are today. Now, we can't be as accurate with those theories as we can with more recent periods, say, the past million years or so, because we don't have ice cores for them. Nor will we.

Ever.

Because for tens of millions of years at at time there have been no ice caps. At all.
No. During the modern earth (as in, the last few million years since complex life forms started walking the earth) CO2 levels has not been overall much higher than it is today. It fluxuates with time. Only once has Earth been a snowball (meaning covered with ice from pole to pole), and never has all ice been gone.

Yes. Complex life forms have been walking the earth for over 250 million years.

Most recently, there was no ice at either pole during the majority of the Eocene.
It's not the most recent; the latest extinction happened a mere 30000-60000 years ago when mankind almost went extinct. We went from a booming population to a mere 10000 individuals - which can be seen by comparing genetic data. But yes; it's the last "major" extinction event.

My phrasing was "more recent", not "most recent". Technically, as I mentioned, the most recent extinction event is the one that has been ongoing since mankind discovered the spear.

As for the hypothetical Toba event and possible genetic bottleneck, it's just a theory. Something obviously happened in Africa during that time period; a number of other ape species also show genetic evidence of catastrophe at the time, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really qualify as even a minor extinction event. It's just too local.

As for the rest, the ocean's role as a thermal conveyor, and Milankovitch cycles are things I'm already well aware of.

Look at Venus and Mars; they're both in the Goldilocks zone - that is the zone that's "just right" - however, neither of them can support life as we know it- on Venus, the funnel emptied and stay emptied; causing it to be way too hot. Mars on the other hand overflowed; causing it to be too cold. It's a shame too - Venus is the only other planet in the Goldilocks zone which has shown evidence of Tectonic activity. The only other body we know of is the moon Titan - which is way outside the Goldilocks zone.

Venus has no magnetic field. Life would be... unlikely, to say the least. Mars also has no magnetic field, nor enough gravity to retain its atmosphere in the absence of one.

By most reckonings, that simple lack would be enough to doom both planets to their current fate.
 
Only for complex lifeforms, not in the form of bacteria.
 
Complex life forms. Like reptiles, mammals and dinosaurs. 250 million years. Hell, the P-T extinction event wiped out a good number of reasonably complex terrestrial vertebrates that made way for the ascendancy of the dinosaurs, and that was more than 250 million years ago.
 
Complex life forms. Like reptiles, mammals and dinosaurs. 250 million years. Hell, the P-T extinction event wiped out a good number of reasonably complex terrestrial vertebrates that made way for the ascendancy of the dinosaurs, and that was more than 250 million years ago.

Not sure what you're responding to; I was talking about Mars and Venus having had the possibility of housing life in the form of bacteria. Both planets had liquid water at one point in time. I couldnt respond to the rest as I'm on my iPad.
 
Last edited:
Well, that clears that up. And illustrates the general lack of utility of the iPad.

It's possible, but unlikely, particularly in the case of Venus. Mars at least had a respectable magnetic field at one point, we believe; there's no evidence that Venus ever did. We do at least have a chance of making the discovery on Mars, though again, Venus is unlikely we'll ever know for sure, given the inherent hostility of the environment.
 
Back
Top