The Clinton Era - The Good, the Bad, and the Debatable

alanon

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Alanon
I don't want to pile on because people have already said to give the guy time. (I personally am scared of his policy direction but even I agree) but this caught my eye:

Then again, this is the same country that pissed all over Bill Clinton after all the great things he did

What are these great things of which you speak?
 
What are these great things of which you speak?



  • [*]Signed the Economic Package, August 10, 1993.
    [*]The economy created 7.7 million new jobs in the first 34 months of this Administration.
    [*]Passed the largest deficit-cutting plan in history -- saving more than $1 trillion over seven years.
    [*]On track for three consecutive years of deficit reduction -- for the first time since Harry Truman.
    [*]Cut federal spending by $255 billion over 5 years.
    [*]Made new tax cuts available to over 90% of small businesses.
    [*]Unemployment has fallen from 7% when President Clinton took office to its current rate of 5.6%
    [*]Lowest combined rate of unemployment and inflation since 1968.
    [*]1994 real GDP growth was the highest in a decade.
    [*]Proposed a plan to balance the budget while protecting critical investments in education.



  • [*]Increased Head Start funding by almost $760 million.
    [*]Passed the Student Loan Reform Act, August 10, 1993.
    [*]Implemented the National Service Act, September 21, 1993.
    [*]Signed the Goals 2000: Educate America Act, March 31, 1994.
    [*]Enacted the School-to-Work Opportunities Act on May 4, 1994.
    [*]Signed the Elementary and Secondary Education Act Reauthorization



  • [*]Passed the toughest most comprehensive Crime Bill ever, September 13, 1994
    [*]Signed the Brady Bill, November 30, 1993.
    [*]Enacted the Assault Weapons Ban as part of the Crime Bill.
    [*]Put 100,000 new police on the street -- nearly 31,000 more officers have been funded.
    [*]Signed the Violence Against Women Act as part of the Crime Bill.
    [*]Signed the Safe and Drug-Free Schools Act, October 20, 1994.
    [*]Issued Presidential Directive enforcing a "Zero Tolerance" gun policy in schools, October 22, 1994
    [*]Submitted and fought for the most comprehensive Drug Control budget ever.



  • [*]Already cut the Federal Workforce by over 200,000 -- on the way to lowest level in 30 years.
    [*]Abolishing 16,000 pages of obsolete regulations and rewriting 31,000 more pages.
    [*]$58 billion in savings are already in the bank. $46 billion in savings are still to come.
    [*]Over 180 new recommendations will save $70 billion. Eliminated 284 federal advisory committees.
    [*]Developed government-wide Customer Service Standards for the first time.
    [*]Appointed the most diverse Cabinet and Administration in history.
    [*]Signed the most important federal procurement act ever to streamline government purchasing.
    [*]Reformed Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation to protect 8.5 million pensions.
    [*]Signed the Unfunded Mandates Reform Act, March 22, 1995.



  • [*]Created nine Economic Empowerment Zones and 95 Enterprise Communities.
    [*]Signed the Community Development Banking Financial Institutions Act, Sept. 23, 1994.
    [*]Signed the Interstate Banking Bill, September 29, 1994.
    [*]Instituted the Defense Reinvestment and Conversion Initiative.
    [*]Reformed the Community Reinvestment Act to focus on performance rather than paperwork.
    [*]Made the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit and Mortgage Revenue Bond Program permanent.



  • [*]Issued a new executive order to require polluters to disclose information to the public and expanded the public's right-to-know about toxic releases.
    [*]Launched "reinventing environmental regulation" to cut red tape and better protect public health.
    [*]Issued a new standard to cut pollution from chemical plants 90% by 1997.
    [*]Signed executive orders to increase recycling and cut pollution in federal buildings.
    [*]Signed the California Desert Protection Act, October 31, 1994.
    [*]Issued a new standard to cut pollution from incinerators 95%.
    [*]Introduced comprehensive Safe Drinking Water and Superfund reforms.
    [*]Developed a plan to restore Florida's Everglades.
    [*]Ended decades of conflict over the allocation of California Bay-Delta water.



  • [*]Passed the Family and Medical Leave Act, February 5, 1993.
    [*]Signed a comprehensive Child Immunization Plan.
    [*]Revoked the Reagan/Bush restrictions on abortion counseling ("the gag rule"), abortions in military hospitals, "Mexico City" policy and RU-486 imports.
    [*]Increased Ryan White CARE Act funding for outpatient AIDS care over 100% in first 3 budgets.
    [*]Put the Women, Infants and Children Program (WIC) on a full-funding path.
    [*]Increased funding 65% for breast cancer research.
    [*]As part of the balanced budget plan, introduced health care reform initiative which strengthens Medicare and expands coverage.
    [*]Proposed a $1.3 billion increase in veterans' benefits -- of which $1 billion will be directed to the VA health system to provide treatment for 43,000 more veterans.



  • [*]Expanded the Earned Income Tax Credit providing tax relief for 15 million working families.
    [*]Introduced the Work and Responsibility Act - comprehensive welfare reform.
    [*]Passed the Family Support and Preservation Program.
    [*]Passed major funding increases for homeless programs in both Houses.
    [*]Approved 35 waivers to states permitting comprehensive welfare reform demonstrations.
    [*]Collected a record $10 billion in child support through enforcement in 1994.
    [*]Signed the Social Security Independent Agency Act.
    [*]Increased adoption and foster care funds by almost $600 million from 1994-1995.



  • [*]Signed the National Voter Registration Act (Motor-Voter), May 20, 1993.
    [*]Eliminated the tax deduction for lobbying expenses.
    [*]Imposed strictest Administration ethics guidelines in history.
    [*]Barred top officials from becoming foreign lobbyists after leaving government.
    [*]Signed the Lobbying Disclosure Act of 1995 -- the first overhaul of lobbying rules in 50 years.
    [*]Fought for passage of and signed into law the Congressional Accountability Act, January 22, 1995.
    [*]Fought for passage of line-item veto and campaign finance.



  • [*]Signed NAFTA into law, December 8, 1993, which will create hundreds of thousands of US jobs.
    [*]Signed GATT into law, December 8, 1994, the largest trade agreement in history.
    [*]Secured free-trade commitments from Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) leaders.
    [*]Hosted Summit of the Americas and agreed to negotiate a Free Trade Area of the Americas by 2005
    [*]Developed National Export Strategy, eliminating outdated export controls on $35 billion in exports.
    [*]Opened 15 different market sectors in Japan ranging from telecommunications procurement to rice.
    [*]Reached historic agreement with Japan on opening its automotive market to billions of dollars worth of American cars and parts.
    [*]Reached agreement with China to provide intellectual property rights protection for billions of dollars worth of U.S. exports.

OP: it's been 3 fucking months...seriously hop off of fox news' cock
 
Hmm... Looking through the list, you realize a lot of those are things he didn't really do, things he got lucky and happened while he was in office, things that he tried to do and didn't succeed at, things that other people did that he got credit for, and things of questionable overall nature.

Also something weird about this list, since it appears to have been written mid-administration.
 
Hmm... Looking through the list, you realize a lot of those are things he didn't really do, things he got lucky and happened while he was in office, things that he tried to do and didn't succeed at, things that other people did that he got credit for, and things of questionable overall nature.

Also something weird about this list, since it appears to have been written mid-administration.

Exactly.

I was actually waiting for the trademark BS answer of "Budget Surplus" which is always the staple answer of people regurgetating "facts" that they heard with no real knowledge.

This list works just as well though. I ask for great things and I get a list that the poster obviously had to look up and one has to wonder if they even looked at the list themselves. I mean the very first item pretty much sets the tone:

"Signed the Economic Package, August 10, 1993"

Really? REALLY?? OMG! OMG! OMG! He signed an Economic Package!!! Well let's all just stand in line behind Monica for a chance to suck Willy's Willy!!!

Are you serious with that list? It's mostly bills that he signed? So what? I can make a list of bills that GWB signed, but we all know that he did not do great things! Most of the "facts" aren't even really facts. For example, the deficit reduction is purely false as the deficit increased every year under Clinton.

The most notable thing that happened under Clinton was NAFTA, and even that is hotly debated depending on where you live (TX loves it; OH, MI, PA hate it) and even his wife's opinion on it changes depending on where she's campaigning - When she was in Ohio she talked about recinding it, in TX she claims to have helped draft it and get it passed.....
 
What are these great things of which you speak?

His biggest scandal was getting blown. I think we can't ask much else from a lot of politicians!!
 
Hmm... Looking through the list, you realize a lot of those are things he didn't really do, things he got lucky and happened while he was in office, things that he tried to do and didn't succeed at, things that other people did that he got credit for, and things of questionable overall nature.

Also something weird about this list, since it appears to have been written mid-administration.

i'll be honest, i copypasta'd but srsly 2 of the things on this list are better then ANYTHING our last "president" ever did in his last 8 years

i mean srsly we had a surplus when clinton left and a record setting deficit when bush left...that has to say it all
 
i'll be honest, i copypasta'd but srsly 2 of the things on this list are better then ANYTHING our last "president" ever did in his last 8 years

i mean srsly we had a surplus when clinton left and a record setting deficit when bush left...that has to say it all

The thing is that that doesn't actually mean much of anything about the President in question. The control the President has over the economy is... questionable at best. Fiscal policy can certainly help in bad times, and can also make good times... less good, but it can't really control the cycles. The best the White House can really hope to do is influence the system, and in that instance they have considerably less influence than, say, the Fed.

Clinton presided over a bubble economy, coupled with a massive drawdown of the military. It's not hard to balance the budget under those circumstances. Bush, on the other hand, received a considerably tougher row to hoe in that instance. He got the crash of the tech sector that was driving the bubble economy that Clinton magically receives credit for, coupled with the events of 9/11 which functionally necessitated an increase in military funding.

Bush, of course, did very little right in his handling of the situation, but many of the things that had been done wrong, for the most part, predated him.

Ultimately, the final point is that someone who gave a crap about Bush could probably put together a similar list of "good" things that he "did" while in office, sad as that is.
 
What are these great things of which you speak?

A better answer to your question

22.2 million new jobs were created between 1993 and 2000, the most jobs ever created under a single Administration -- and more new jobs than Presidents Reagan and Bush created during their three terms. 92 percent (20 million) of the new jobs were created in the private sector, the highest percentage in 50 years. Under President Clinton and Vice President Gore, the economy added an average of 248,000 jobs per month, the highest under any President. This compares to 52,000 per month under President Bush and 167,000 per month under President Reagan.

Unemployment is down from 7.5 percent in 1992 to 3.9 percent in September, the lowest in more than three decades. The unemployment rate has fallen for seven years in a row, and has remained below 5 percent for 37 months in a row -- over three full years. Unemployment for African-Americans fell to the lowest level ever recorded, and for Hispanics it remains at historic lows.

Unemployment was down from 7.5 percent in 1992 to 3.9 percent 2000, the lowest in more than three decades. The unemployment rate fell for seven years in a row, and remained below 5 percent for 37 months in a row -- over three full years. Unemployment for African-Americans fell to the lowest level ever recorded.

In 1999, the poverty rate dropped from 12.7 percent to 11.8 percent, the lowest rate in two decades. After President Clinton and Vice President Gore passed their Economic Plan in 1993, the poverty rate declined from 15.1 percent in 1993 to 11.8 percent in 1999. There were 7 million fewer people in poverty in 2000 than in 1993, and over 2.2 million, or over 30 percent, of this decline occurred between 1999 and 2000.

When President Clinton and Vice President Gore took office in 1993, the violent crime rate in America had more than quadrupled during the previous three decades. From 1993 to 1999, America experienced the longest continuous drop in crime on record. In 1998, the overall crime rate was the lowest in 25 years, and in 1999 crime fell for the eighth consecutive year nationwide. Violent crime rate fell 7 percent in 1999 and 27 percent since 1993. From 1993 to 2000, the murder rate was down more than 25 percent to its lowest point since 1967. In the same time, gun violence declined by more than 35 percent.

The President enacted the Hate Crimes Sentencing Enhancement Act in 1994. He held the White House Conference on Hate Crimes, where he called for passage of the Hate Crimes Prevention Act -- bipartisan legislation which would strengthen hate crimes laws and make it clear that America will not tolerate acts of violence based on race, color, gender, national origin, religion, sexual orientation or disability.

President Clinton signed into law the toughest child support crackdown in history. Federal and state child support programs broke new records in 1999, collecting nearly $16 billion -- double the amount collected in 1992. The number of paternities established rose to a record 1.5 million in 1999 - more than triple the number from 516,000 in 1992. The number of child support cases with collections more than doubled during the Clinton Administration, from 2.8 million in 1992 to 4.5 million in 1999.

The teen birth rate fell eight years in a row, dropping 20 percent from 1991 to 1999 to the lowest rate in the 60 years data on teen births have been recorded. The teen pregnancy rate is also at the lowest rate on record.

The Clinton-Gore Administration took strong steps to protect a woman's right to choose and to promote safe reproductive health services for women. The President provided contraceptive coverage to more than a million women covered by federal health plans; provided family planning services to low income women through the Medicaid program; stood up against attempts to prohibit the FDA from approving RU-486; and continues to fight restrictions on international family planning.

In 1996, Clinton called for an increase of almost 50 percent over 5 years in the National Institutes of Health (NIH) budget as part of his Research for America Fund. From 1996 to 2000, the NIH budget increased by over $4.3 billion and with the funding proposed by the Clinton in 2000, the Administration was one year ahead of schedule in reaching the 50 percent goal. As a result, NIH now supports the highest levels of research ever on nearly all types of disease and health conditions, making new breakthroughs possible in vaccine development and use, the treatment of chronic disease, and prevention and treatment of diseases such as diabetes, osteoporosis, heart disease, cancer, and neurological diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. The Clinton-Gore Administration's FY 2001 budget included a $1 billion increase for NIH.

1993 to 2000, the Federal workforce was cut by 377,000 - nearly a fifth - and in 2000 was lower than any time since 1960.

If you want more, I can go into foreign policy.
 
A better answer to your question
<snip initial economic/crime statistics>

Now, provide solid evidence that policies enacted by Clinton had significant effect on the economic situation, rather than simply the dotcom bubble and investment frenzy creating thousands upon thousands of new jobs in the private sector... a vast number of which would subsequently be shed once the world realized that the bubble was just that, a bubble.

As for crime statistics... Well, it's not exactly a surprise when crime goes down in a booming economy.

The President enacted the Hate Crimes Sentencing Enhancement Act in 1994. He held the White House Conference on Hate Crimes, where he called for passage of the Hate Crimes Prevention Act -- bipartisan legislation which would strengthen hate crimes laws and make it clear that America will not tolerate acts of violence based on race, color, gender, national origin, religion, sexual orientation or disability.

Frankly, I don't consider this to be a good piece of legislation in any way. I consider it to be unconstitutional, a violation of the 14th amendment (ironically enough), and something that the next purveyor of hate crimes should seriously consider challenging all the way to the Supreme Court.

We punish the crime, not the motivation behind it.

The number of paternities established rose to a record 1.5 million in 1999 - more than triple the number from 516,000 in 1992. The number of child support cases with collections more than doubled during the Clinton Administration, from 2.8 million in 1992 to 4.5 million in 1999.

Rise of DNA testing. 'Nuff said. Clinton certainly provided some extra funding to assist in the process, but the real culprit here has little to do with him.

The teen birth rate fell eight years in a row, dropping 20 percent from 1991 to 1999 to the lowest rate in the 60 years data on teen births have been recorded. The teen pregnancy rate is also at the lowest rate on record.

See previous comments about crime and the economy.

The Clinton-Gore Administration took strong steps to protect a woman's right to choose and to promote safe reproductive health services for women. The President provided contraceptive coverage to more than a million women covered by federal health plans; provided family planning services to low income women through the Medicaid program; stood up against attempts to prohibit the FDA from approving RU-486; and continues to fight restrictions on international family planning.

While I'm personally all for this, not everyone is. I'm of the opinion that most of them are uptight overly religious inbred HICKS, but they have rights and opinions too, sadly.

1993 to 2000, the Federal workforce was cut by 377,000 - nearly a fifth - and in 2000 was lower than any time since 1960.

Clinton's nigh-magical reductions in the Federal workforce were achieved largely through cuts in military personnel, and through the equally magical process of outside contracting. A great number of the people who left the Federal workforce voluntarily (which was most of them) got bought out to do so, something like $25,000. Quite a few people who would otherwise have quit earlier stayed on to receive their buyout. Billions of dollars were spent to encourage people to quit, and nearly half of it was spent on people who were close to retiring anyway.
 
Now, provide solid evidence that policies enacted by Clinton had significant effect on the economic situation, rather than simply the dotcom bubble and investment frenzy creating thousands upon thousands of new jobs in the private sector... a vast number of which would subsequently be shed once the world realized that the bubble was just that, a bubble.

As for crime statistics... Well, it's not exactly a surprise when crime goes down in a booming economy.

OK, sure. Your statement needs no proof at all, I'll just accept it as fact.

Frankly, I don't consider this to be a good piece of legislation in any way. I consider it to be unconstitutional, a violation of the 14th amendment (ironically enough), and something that the next purveyor of hate crimes should seriously consider challenging all the way to the Supreme Court.

We punish the crime, not the motivation behind it.

Do you think there is a difference in a crime and a hate crime?

Rise of DNA testing. 'Nuff said. Clinton certainly provided some extra funding to assist in the process, but the real culprit here has little to do with him.

He said I'm "gonna do this and get this outcome". He did that, and got the expected outcome. But that had little to do with him. That makes total sense.

See previous comments about crime and the economy.

What? The internet did it?

While I'm personally all for this, not everyone is. I'm of the opinion that most of them are uptight overly religious inbred HICKS, but they have rights and opinions too, sadly.

Yes, but those hicks are wrong. This country is constitutionally obligated to provide that choice to women.

Clinton's nigh-magical reductions in the Federal workforce were achieved largely through cuts in military personnel, and through the equally magical process of outside contracting. A great number of the people who left the Federal workforce voluntarily (which was most of them) got bought out to do so, something like $25,000. Quite a few people who would otherwise have quit earlier stayed on to receive their buyout. Billions of dollars were spent to encourage people to quit, and nearly half of it was spent on people who were close to retiring anyway.

I really don't know what to say to your slanted information. Most of the information you have presented looks like something a conspiracy theorists would say. You can't explain to a crazy person that they are crazy when it all makes sense in their head. Those who concentrate on the negative can't enjoy the positive.

You agree that abortion should be a choice yet still point out it was wrong of Clinton to take that stance because not everyone thinks it's ok. It doesn't matter what any politician does, you hate them all and could do a much better job yourself.

Except for the whole getting elected part. Tell me why it is a supergenious like you chose a Final Fantasy forum to release all this wonderful knowledge to the world?
 
We punish the crime, not the motivation behind it.

That's not true. We classify crimes all the time and weigh the motivations before determining the severity of the punishment. We have different classifications for murder. There's a difference between causing someone's death when you've planned it for six months in advance or when you accidentally hit them with your car.

Throwing eggs at someone's house and burning a cross on their lawn are not equally-weighted incidents of vandalism.
 
OK, sure. Your statement needs no proof at all, I'll just accept it as fact.

I learned it by watching you Dad! I LEARNED IT BY WATCHING YOU!

Do you think there is a difference in a crime and a hate crime?

No. Just because someone dislikes me over the color of my skin (and yes, I've had that happen) has no bearing on what they did or did not do to me.

He said I'm "gonna do this and get this outcome". He did that, and got the expected outcome. But that had little to do with him. That makes total sense.

He didn't invent DNA testing.

Much like Al Gore did not invent the internet.

He capitalized on the culmination of decades of research.

As I said, the funding he issued to the matter eased the process somewhat. But, in the long run, it would have happened with or without him, and the difference between the two is fairly minimal.
What? The internet did it?

In times of economic growth, the unemployment rate drops. When the Fed chooses not to slow the growth of the economy, and unemployment drops below what is considered the natural level of unemployment, there are an awful lot of people with jobs who would not otherwise have had them.

These people, obviously, are less inclined to turn to crime. What is fueling the boom is almost irrelevant. It could have been a massive worldwide rise in demand for Peeps, so long as more people are employed, more money is spent, and the aggregate demand and supply curves shift to the right (lolmacroeconomics).

Yes, but those hicks are wrong. This country is constitutionally obligated to provide that choice to women.
Not so much.

The Constitution has no obligation to allow women to abort fetuses.

The legal precedent is just that: a precedent. That can be overturned with relative ease, and is obviously something that the more religious types among us have been attempting to do for some time now.

The nature of the decision itself is rather muddled, blurring together some due process, equal protection, right to privacy, and a smattering of other precedents to create something that with a justification that is, on the whole, rather nebulous.

In issuing the decision, the court strayed into territory that they probably should not have, though it was almost undoubtedly necessary. By this, I mean that the court strayed into territory of defining humanity, and at what point a human is permitted the rights we all enjoy under the Constitution.

So no, we cannot simply arbitrarily declare the ignorant, uptight hicks to be wrong. Nor, if you notice, did I. I consider them to be ignorant uptight hicks because the reason why they oppose abortion has little to do with logic, and a lot to do with religious propaganda written over a thousand years ago. Why they oppose it, however, does not necessarily mean that it is wrong to oppose it.
I really don't know what to say to your slanted information.

Funny, I knew what to say to yours. You had, much like Tok, an awful lot of "this happened", with a relative dearth of actual evidence supporting your conclusion that Clinton caused it.

Except for the whole getting elected part. Tell me why it is a supergenious like you chose a Final Fantasy forum to release all this wonderful knowledge to the world?

What makes you think that this is the only place where I dispense the wisdom generated by my super genius?

You are correct in one thing though. I do not trust politicians.

Nobody should trust politicians, unless you're trusting them to try and get re-elected. Which, in a perfect world, would mean that they listen to their electorate and try to satisfy their wants and demands.

Sadly, we do not live in a perfect world.

And finally...

Halifrien said:
There's a difference between causing someone's death when you've planned it for six months in advance or when you accidentally hit them with your car.

Yes, that is quite true. Murder 1 vs Manslaughter. A better example would have been Murder 1 vs Murder 2, premeditated vs crime of passion.

But in this case, I fail to see the relevance. Premeditated murder because I stand to profit from your death vs premeditated murder because you slept with my wife vs premeditated murder because I don't like the color of your skin.

The first man hated no one, he merely saw an opportunity for profit. We can leave him out for the remainder of this example, as while he does illustrate a point, it's not as relevant as the last two.

The second and third men murdered out of hatred. But hate crime laws do not recognize his "hate" as being valid. The racist will be punished more severely than a man with the same motivation (hatred).

Do you begin to see how this law could be considered unconstitutional?
 

I see what you are saying Raes, and I do agree with you, but like halif, you'll have to explain the unconstitutionality to me. I see it being not very logical, but you'll have to explain the constitutional argument to me.

It's a moot point anyway, we all know that the passion killer and the hate killer will both be on parole before the pot-smoker!! (sorry, couldn't resist)

tok said:
i mean srsly we had a surplus when clinton left and a record setting deficit when bush left...that has to say it all

It does say it all. Even after I told you flat out that that was the default argument for the majority of Clinton supporters and that it was patently false, you STILL come back to it. It really does say it all......

TH said:
A better answer to your question
<snip initial economic/crime statistics>

Yes, I give you credit, that is a much better and more articulate answer. However, does any of that stuff make him a "great president"?

Furthermore - and I don't want you to respond "out loud" to this - ask yourself this: what does it say when you make a statement that he did a lot of great things, someone questions it, and then you have to go looking for the answers. Shouldn't you already know the answers if you are going to make a statement like that? (and by "you", I am not just singling out TH or Tok)
 
I see what you are saying Raes, and I do agree with you, but like halif, you'll have to explain the unconstitutionality to me. I see it being not very logical, but you'll have to explain the constitutional argument to me.

Very well.

A different hypothetical situation. One that many people argue happens every day. Two different men commit assault & battery. One is white. One is black. The crime is identical. The two men are arrested on the same day, tried on the same day, in the same court, with the same jury, judge, and lawyers.

Would you consider it unconstitutional if the black man was punished more severely than the white man? What if laws were passed arbitrarily declaring stiffer penalties for people who happen to be left-handed (those sinister bastards)?

Equal protection under the law means that we cannot discriminate based on the color of our skin, the god(s) we choose to worship, or the people whom we choose to love. Sadly, that must also include the people whom we choose to hate.

The racist is not being afforded the same protection under the law. He is being singled out and punished more severely, not for his crime, but for his beliefs.
 
A different hypothetical situation. One that many people argue happens every day. Two different men commit assault & battery. One is white. One is black. The crime is identical. The two men are arrested on the same day, tried on the same day, in the same court, with the same jury, judge, and lawyers.

Simple assault wouldn't be considered a hate crime, though. If the white guy is beating up a Jewish guy while screaming about a Zionist conspiracy to take over all the banks and impose a one-world government, he'll most likely be punished more severely. I don't have a problem with that and neither would most people.

Hate crime penalties aren't based strictly on the identity of the victim unless it's a specific motivation for the selection of the victim. It wouldn't apply to a person who randomly shoots someone in the head who is later revealed to be gay; however, it would apply to someone who specifically says "I'm going to kill a queer" and then walks into a gay bar searching for a victim.
 
Eh, pretty silly debate. Look at the results. Clinton might get a little bit more credit than he deserves, but the bottom line is that the country was drastically different prior to Clinton and after Clinton. I don't think anyone here has enough first hand knowledge to fully understand what kind of influence he had during his eight years in Washington, but its pretty stupid to argue against those kind of results.
 
Simple assault wouldn't be considered a hate crime, though. If the white guy is beating up a Jewish guy while screaming about a Zionist conspiracy to take over all the banks and impose a one-world government, he'll most likely be punished more severely. I don't have a problem with that and neither would most people.

He doesn't have to be screaming anything, he could easily be charged with a hate crime if he just has a copy of the Turner Diaries in his back pocket

And it shouldn't matter whether the perpetrator went out for the express purpose of beating up a minority or whether anyone in particular would do. The law is, in effect, punishing someone for a belief system.

Zoolander said:
Eh, pretty silly debate. Look at the results. Clinton might get a little bit more credit than he deserves, but the bottom line is that the country was drastically different prior to Clinton and after Clinton. I don't think anyone here has enough first hand knowledge to fully understand what kind of influence he had during his eight years in Washington, but its pretty stupid to argue against those kind of results.

The argument isn't over what happened from 92-00, the argument is what Clinton really had to do with it. It's a little far fetched to give him full credit for everything that happened during his administration, don't you think, without at least a token effort to analyze the situation.
 
I learned it by watching you Dad! I LEARNED IT BY WATCHING YOU!

Mmm hmm.

No. Just because someone dislikes me over the color of my skin (and yes, I've had that happen) has no bearing on what they did or did not do to me.

I'll get to this in a minute.

He didn't invent DNA testing.

No, he didn't. He helped pay for the tests that single mothers could most likely not have paid for otherwise.

Much like Al Gore did not invent the internet.

Much like he never claimed to do. You realize saying that is the equivalent of a creationist saying "I heritage didn't come from no damn monkey".

He capitalized on the culmination of decades of research.

Expanded, not capitalized.

As I said, the funding he issued to the matter eased the process somewhat. But, in the long run, it would have happened with or without him, and the difference between the two is fairly minimal.

The technology would have existed without him, but the funding speeded things up quite nicely. Also, as I have said before, as you have ignored before, paternity testing isn't free but Clinton helped to make it affordable.

In times of economic growth, the unemployment rate drops. When the Fed chooses not to slow the growth of the economy, and unemployment drops below what is considered the natural level of unemployment, there are an awful lot of people with jobs who would not otherwise have had them.

These people, obviously, are less inclined to turn to crime. What is fueling the boom is almost irrelevant. It could have been a massive worldwide rise in demand for Peeps, so long as more people are employed, more money is spent, and the aggregate demand and supply curves shift to the right (lolmacroeconomics).

So these dotcom sites created and run by 1 or 2 people created millions of jobs somehow? So crime went down because criminals think it was easier to run a website than steal and kill. Gotcha.

Not so much.

The Constitution has no obligation to allow women to abort fetuses.

The legal precedent is just that: a precedent. That can be overturned with relative ease, and is obviously something that the more religious types among us have been attempting to do for some time now.

The nature of the decision itself is rather muddled, blurring together some due process, equal protection, right to privacy, and a smattering of other precedents to create something that with a justification that is, on the whole, rather nebulous.

In issuing the decision, the court strayed into territory that they probably should not have, though it was almost undoubtedly necessary. By this, I mean that the court strayed into territory of defining humanity, and at what point a human is permitted the rights we all enjoy under the Constitution.

So no, we cannot simply arbitrarily declare the ignorant, uptight hicks to be wrong. Nor, if you notice, did I. I consider them to be ignorant uptight hicks because the reason why they oppose abortion has little to do with logic, and a lot to do with religious propaganda written over a thousand years ago. Why they oppose it, however, does not necessarily mean that it is wrong to oppose it.

Atta boy. Way to side with both sides at the same time. You would make a good politician.

Funny, I knew what to say to yours. You had, much like Tok, an awful lot of "this happened", with a relative dearth of actual evidence supporting your conclusion that Clinton caused it.

I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink. The info is there. Check my facts. Did I misrepresent anything?

What makes you think that this is the only place where I dispense the wisdom generated by my super genius?

Because you still think you are right.

You are correct in one thing though. I do not trust politicians.

Nobody should trust politicians, unless you're trusting them to try and get re-elected. Which, in a perfect world, would mean that they listen to their electorate and try to satisfy their wants and demands.

Sadly, we do not live in a perfect world.

Is that to say democracy is a farce? Outdated? Doesn't work?

Yes, that is quite true. Murder 1 vs Manslaughter. A better example would have been Murder 1 vs Murder 2, premeditated vs crime of passion.

But in this case, I fail to see the relevance. Premeditated murder because I stand to profit from your death vs premeditated murder because you slept with my wife vs premeditated murder because I don't like the color of your skin.

The first man hated no one, he merely saw an opportunity for profit. We can leave him out for the remainder of this example, as while he does illustrate a point, it's not as relevant as the last two.

The second and third men murdered out of hatred. But hate crime laws do not recognize his "hate" as being valid. The racist will be punished more severely than a man with the same motivation (hatred).

Do you begin to see how this law could be considered unconstitutional?

If I slept with your wife, you have a motive. You killing me would be a direct response to something I did. If I am walking down the street and you want to kill a white boy that is unprovoked and totally random.

When Johnny Cash wrote Folsem Prison Blues, he was trying to think of a reason the singer could have gone to jail. He asked himself what the most despicable reason for murder could be, and from that, we got the line "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die."

Random murder with no motive. Same thing as a hate crime. It is considered worse because the only motivation fueling their actions is their own hate. Surely you can understand that is worse than a crime of passion or a crime of greed.

A different hypothetical situation. One that many people argue happens every day. Two different men commit assault & battery. One is white. One is black. The crime is identical. The two men are arrested on the same day, tried on the same day, in the same court, with the same jury, judge, and lawyers.

Would you consider it unconstitutional if the black man was punished more severely than the white man? What if laws were passed arbitrarily declaring stiffer penalties for people who happen to be left-handed (those sinister bastards)?

Equal protection under the law means that we cannot discriminate based on the color of our skin, the god(s) we choose to worship, or the people whom we choose to love. Sadly, that must also include the people whom we choose to hate.

The racist is not being afforded the same protection under the law. He is being singled out and punished more severely, not for his crime, but for his beliefs.

The thing about this example is you are talking about the skin color of the person committing the crime. Where as hate crimes can be committed by any person regardless of skin color.

Apples and Oranges.
 
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