THE Election 2008 Megathread!

[Celvantes]

You asked for it, here it is.

Super Tuesday is now less than a month away. On 5 February, we'll have a really good picture of who the two contenders for President will be.

While I personally would *like* to see it end up to be Romney vs. Obama, I think we're going to see Giuliani against a Clinton/Obama ticket... and it's going to be a fight that will make the '04 election look like child's play.

So... free-for-all thread on the issues and the candidates. I'm looking forward to it.

Oh, and Celv's personal voting card:

Iraq: Fighting the enemy overseas keeps them occupied and away from our own shores. We're close to victory and a stable Iraq that will be a future ally for decades to come. We need to stay until they can fend for themselves.

National defense: Thsi should be a no-brainer since I'm in the military. Be smart and don't go nuts with the military budget. If you're going to make cuts, don't ask the military to do more than they possibly can with what you're giving them.

Health care: This country fought for the better part of fifty years against communism and lost a hell of a lot of lives in the name of stopping that failed economic system (that in turn supported brutal dictators on the political side). Don't make a mockery of their memory by embracing socialized medicine. Instead, empower America to do what it does best - and that's practice capitalism. Deregulate the medical insurance industry to let companies from different states directly compete with one another. More competition means more efficiency and lower costs. Let the patient vote with their dollars and reward the companies who are able to offer the best care for the lowest price. Furthermore, trim the massive government waste that is Medicare and Medicaid and outsource the programs to companies who actually do this for a living. Our government was designed to draft law, not run an HMO. It's cost the government hundreds of thousands just to *report* on how much various medical companies are ripping taxpayers off through Medicare and Medicaid. Close these loopholes (and save us some money in the process) by turning the program over to professionals.

Social security: It doesn't work. Period. Have the balls to admit what the Social Security Administration has been saying for years now and fix the program. Even under the most optimistic of models, the system will be irreversibly broken long before I reach retirement age, which means that every cent I put into it now is a cent I'll never see again. A savings account in your local bank returns more money than Social Security ever has or ever will. Get rid of this Depression-Era holdover and privatize the system. Let us choose what to do with our own money instead of telling us that we have to give it to the government to save for us.

Illegal immigration: Ours is the only first-world border on the planet that is so permeable. Try the shit you see happening every day on our border over in Europe and you're likely to get shot. Yes, I'm from a family of immigrants, but you know what? They waited for years in a very hostlie environment (post war Germany under Soviet occupation) so that they could come to this country the right way. We don't need to start rounding people up and deporting them, but what we *do* need to do is stop the flow over our borders. I don't care if you have to deploy the National Guard and treat the Rio Grande like the border between Iraq and Iran - make the soverignty of our country mean something again. THEN we'll talk about naturalizing the millions that are already here.

Abortion: Already said it, but we need to define when life starts and put it in the Constitution as the latest amendment. Only then can we make a proper decision about the legality of abortion.

Taxes: Lower them, shrink the size of government and pay down the national debt with the excess. Cut bullshit spending programs (i.e. a million dollars for a Woodstock Museum... Hillary). Stimulate our economy by giving the American people more money to spend instead of trying to boost the economy by raising taxes and increasing government expenditure.

Foreign policy: Institute an "America First" policy. Being the world's policemen is nice, but stop involving ourselves in foreign conflicts that have nothing to do with us, our national interests or those of our allies. Humanitarian crises are a shame, but instead of sending in US troops, enable the UN and non-governmental organizations like the International Red Cross to go in and do their job. If the area is just too unstable for even them to help, than it's not our business to interfere.

 

[Arctyrael]

Hrrm... Clinton Pres Obama VP? I dunno... I don't wanna see Obama become hillary's bitch lol

 

[Dejavu]

I love Romney

 

[Arctyrael]

Dejavu, you may support a crazy guy, but that made me smile.

 

[Arctyrael]

Not that I try to mask that as an attack on Ron Paul by any means. I just think he's got some problems with his agenda.

Funny though really, that lady linking Osama to Obama and Hillary at the same time. Quite ingenious what with Obama's muslim upbringing. I know that has more than a few independent conservatives wary of Obama.

 

[Xalioniaf]

A Woodstock museum? The hippie vote? Oh wait, they're too lazy to get up and do something...
I've actually been following the election a bit more closely since I last said I wouldn't really pay attention this year. I've narrowed down my choices a bit...

 

[Halifirien]

Continued from another thread, since I'm going to try and keep the conversation here instead of all over the board.

You think it's a dodge yet his voting record shows that he supports everything he stands for. Just because you think it's a smoke screen doesn't make it so.

I know Ron Paul's voting record is anti-choice, but when I say he wants to undermine those hard-fought rights and someone says "Oh, he just wants to give it back to the states" like I should suddenly feel better about... no. No thanks. As I said, I have no reason to believe he'd suddenly be pro-choice at the state level.

 

[Lukas]

I disagree with quite a few things on Celv's voting card but as I'm not an American citizen and therefore cannot vote, I will keep my opinions to myself until I've heard more from other posters.

I will point out that it is a tad optimistic to expect a privatisation of the Health Care system as well as more money in your pocket, considering the staggering costs of privatisation.

 

[Sharpe]

Illegal immigration: Ours is the only first-world border on the planet that is so permeable. Try the shit you see happening every day on our border over in Europe and you're likely to get shot.

You obviously know nothing about Europe, in particular Britain's problem with illegal immigration.

 

[Neyla]

Had a Futurama flashback when I was looking for election pictures on the Associated Press wire today.

Mike Huckabee...He's meeting you halfway, you stupid hippies...

And on that note...

 

[Arctyrael]

I like joor idea Celv.

Iraq:
We broke Iraq, we fix Iraq. It is not even a matter of humane treatment of their people, but that the argument can be simplified down to responsibility. If people want to retreat because they are tired of our investment in that country, they better have a pretty good reason. Economically, it is a bad idea to stay in Iraq. America's image would be even worse if we just hide tail and run. Wherever we fight them, the status quo is not enough. They will still try to attack us in the U.S. A. and other civilized western nations. (Hell, even middle eastern countries that are Shia vs. Sunni).

National defense:
We are clearly superior to the nations which we consider 'rogue.' Dealing with nations such as Russia, and China CAN and SHOULD be done diplotmatically only. What does this mean? It means we need a genuine leader, with a real smile and an interest in PROGRESS to make friends with these nations. Not peace accords, but a long running friendship between these nations. There is no reason not to, we are all humans and the civilians and military members of each nation should be treated that way. We should find better ways to invest our defense funds. Defense right now is essentially intelligence and prevention. It isn't russia trying to blow up our trains.

Health care:
Deregulate the industry with exception of things like 'FDA approval.' Direct competition will help some. The Federal Government needs to have an extremely firm hand in dealing with 'insider secrets' and 'cartel' like communication between the companies. I think insurance is a fucking crime in America. Too many people abuse the system raising rates for those that don't. People that partake in high risk activities, SHOULD pay a higher premium -- end of story. I don't know, the whole system is really broken in its current state. The only solution will involve legal reform, regulatory commission reform, as well as privatization imo.

Social security:
I am beginning to realize I am highly conservative in some places and highly liberal in others =P. Things like TANF good. Things like Social Security -- which everyone knows one day they will retire -- bad. Make people put their money into Stocks/Bonds/Savings or whatever. The government shouldn't be the one to do it.

Illegal immigration:
I think this is an issue candidates are milking for conservative, republican votes. The big talk annoys me. We have the technology to ensure our border is secure yet we spend the money to do it on other things. Either do it, and shut up, or open the god damn border so the American people can stop bitching about illegal's stealing their tomato picking jobs. Oh yea, Americans don't do that~ I HAVE to point out, the issue isn't the immigrants. I say let the fuckers in and tell them to stop by the nearest 'learn english' center. The issue IS that 'terrorists' can also get in. The issue IS that we are vulnerable because of this. Something needs to be done, and not just a lot of hot air coming out of the horses ass.

Abortion:

Already said it, but we need to define when life starts and put it in the Constitution as the latest amendment. Only then can we make a proper decision about the legality of abortion.

Taxes:
Lowering and Raising taxes is all a bunch of hogwash. It isn't to actually stimulate or fund shit, but only to garner votes. Sure, they can say they are lowering the income tax, but watch as the oil tax goes up. Taxes are never lowered. I am with Cel, I say government needs to cut itself down in size. National Government should have no say in education. National government should have no say in baseball. National government should have no say in, as the constitution puts it, matters that are not directly listed in the constitution. I'll line them up: Healthcare, Unalienable Rights (gay marriage), etc... Give some of this shit back to the states. At least then, of the 50 states, some will get it right. Some may not, but when residents either begin to move out, then change will occur anyways. American's worship money -- so does our government. Money will always force hands in this nation. Because it is such a hot topic, I'll go ahead and make a bold statement. Would there be a problem with 30 states in the union allowing gay marriage while another 20 banned it? I guess constitutionally still illegal, but it would be a step in the right direction.

Foreign policy:

Institute an "America First" policy.

Uh... I'm not selfish but... I am tired of both our involvement in world affairs, and the backlash for trying to do the right thing. Read into that as much as you want, on the whole, America goes out of it's way to reduce innocent casualty, but the press and world don't care -- so I say fuck em. We have homeless people in America that could use some attention. We have college students that could use some attention. If America is to be an innovator again, we have to stop talking up a storm about Education and truly do something about it. (NOT AT FED LVL but if the fed taxes are lowered, the states could do it very well with new revenues)

Constitution
Follow the constitution for what it says. Don't fucking throw your God damn christian, muslim, arabic, WASP, whateverthefuckyouare, principles into the mix. It is a very clear document. There is 1 elastic clause and it should not be abused. If you don't like it, get the hell out of politics. *is not angry -.-* I really would love Ron Paul if he didn't do exactly what I just pointed out.

For now, a progressive Democratic ticket is the best choice. Sadly, there won't be much reduction in government, but for things like the economy and foreign policy, I think it is our best hope. wee, that is such a long post.

 

[Arctyrael]

I could go on for hours about every reason I support Obama. Instead, if anyone really wants to get a quick rundown of the issues, this site seems pretty clear of bias.

http://www.issues2000.org/

Take a quick look. He's really very moderate and his record shows it.
http://www.issues2000.org/Barack_Obama.htm

• Voted against banning partial birth abortion. (Oct 2007)
• Stem cells hold promise to cure 70 major diseases. (Aug 2007)
• Bush & GOP dug budget hole; need 1 or 2 years to dig out. (Dec 2007)
• Take China "to the mat" about currency manipulation. (Dec 2007)
• Regulate financial instruments to protect home mortgages. (Aug 2007)
• Voted NO on $40B in reduced federal overall spending. (Dec 2005)
  • This would have reduced funding of Iraqi troops. (Careful what you see on the site... sometimes they don't mention things like this.)
• Legal rights for gays are conferred by state, not by church. (Aug 2007)
  • Conservative value! States go~
• Muslim heritage gives Obama unique influence in Muslim world. (Oct 2006)
  • A strong point given today's world.
• End tax breaks for companies that send jobs overseas. (Aug 2007)
• Hold corporations responsible for pensions & work conditions. (Aug 2007)
• Tax incentives for corporate responsibility. (Jun 2004)
• Close tax loopholes for US companies relocating abroad. (Jun 2004)
• REAL USA Plan: Reward companies that create domestic jobs. (Jun 2004)
• Voted YES on repealing tax subsidy for companies which move US jobs offshore. (Mar 2005)
• Voted NO on reforming bankruptcy to include means-testing & restrictions. (Mar 2005)
• Some heinous crimes justify the ultimate punishment. (Oct 2006)
  • I, sadly, agree with this.
• Smokes cigarettes now; smoked some pot in high school. (Feb 2007)
  • Hello? Anyone listening? A guy that is willing to tell the truth. Have we ever had someone like this in office?
• Free public college for any student with B-average. (Jul 1998)
  • I don't agree with this. But... shows he'd rather spend money in America and not bombing the world.
• Rated 100% by the CAF, indicating support for energy independence. (Dec 2006)
• Protect the Great Lakes & our National Parks and Forests. (Aug 2007)
• China is a competitor but not an enemy. (Dec 2007)
• Willing to meet with Fidel Castro, Kim Jung Il & Hugo Chavez. (Nov 2007)
• Invest in our relationship with Mexico. (Sep 2007)
• People don't want cheaper T-shirts if it costs their job. (Aug 2007)
• Create "Google for Government" to track government spending. (Aug 2007)
• Prayer can't prevent disasters; good policy can handle them. (Aug 2007)
• Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
• Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
• Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
• Give people the choice to buy affordable health care. (Jun 2007)
• Take on insurance companies; drive down health care costs. (Jun 2007)
• Human rights and national security are complementary. (Nov 2007)
• America cannot sanction torture; no loopholes or exceptions. (Sep 2007)
• Repeal Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell. (Aug 2007)
• Voted NO on extending the PATRIOT Act's wiretap provision. (Dec 2005)
• Voted YES on restricting business with entities linked to terrorism. (Jul 2005)
• Voted YES on restoring $565M for states' and ports' first responders. (Mar 2005)

Anyways, thats like 10% of all the issues listed for Obama. Take some time to look for yourself! Look at your own candidates. It is always good to be firm in your choice, or to possibly find a better person =).

 

[Sharpe]

Foreign policy:

I am tired of both our involvement in world affairs

To be honest I think most of the rest of the world is as well. :wink:

 

[Sagis]

Arct~

[*]Voted against banning partial birth abortion. (Oct 2007)
[*]Stem cells hold promise to cure 70 major diseases. (Aug 2007)

Really? Prove it because there has been ZERO evidence of anything ever coming out of it to date.

[*]Muslim heritage gives Obama unique influence in Muslim world. (Oct 2006)

• A strong point given today's world.

Yes because there's comfort in a religion BASED on suicide and murder being that of the most powerful man in the world. Great plan.

[*]End tax breaks for companies that send jobs overseas. (Aug 2007)

I won't normally quote things I agree with (seeing as I'd never vote for this man, ever) but this is actually an excellent thing to do.

[*]Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
[*]Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
[*]Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)

Yes, let's allow them to completely destroy our second amendment piece by piece. This asshat ALSO wants to COMPLETELY ban pistols if you check it out fully. How about, get out?

[*]Give people the choice to buy affordable health care. (Jun 2007)

We have that. Point?

[*]America cannot sanction torture; no loopholes or exceptions. (Sep 2007)

Awesome, a leader without a backbone to do what's necessary. No thanks.

Sorry, but I think I'll pass. I won't lie, at all.. as much as I am anti-liberal anything.. he did have some good votes in there. A lot of his ideas are good, however it only takes 1 idea to change a vote.

 

[Coustain]

In order to save space and give someone else space for thier posts, I will say I am in lockstep with Calvantes and I suprisingly agree with Arctyrael on alot of his, if not most points. Of course me and Calvantes are looking at most of these issues through the same lense.

 

[Romper]

Continued from another thread, since I'm going to try and keep the conversation here instead of all over the board.



I know Ron Paul's voting record is anti-choice, but when I say he wants to undermine those hard-fought rights and someone says "Oh, he just wants to give it back to the states" like I should suddenly feel better about... no. No thanks. As I said, I have no reason to believe he'd suddenly be pro-choice at the state level.

He has no say in if the states decide to make abortion illegal. As I said already he can't even over turn it. If there was an over turn on the Roe V Wade case, like capital punishment was over turned, there would have to be proof that abortion is cruel and unusual. When the SC originally heard the case of capital punishment a majority of the states had the death penalty however since then most states have voided it out and the SC changed it's decision that the death penalty is cruel and unusual.

So having it go to the states isn't a bad thing, but at the same time it also can be seen as a bad thing depending on which side you're on. Right now I see the nation on the issue of abortion 50/50, but no one is making abortion illegal that I know of yet.

 

[Halifirien]

I think you're overthinking my point, so I'll just say it again flat-out: I won't vote for a pro-lifer as president. It's one of my key issues, the same way I wouldn't vote for someone who doesn't believe in evolution.

 

[Dejavu]

I think you're overthinking my point, so I'll just say it again flat-out: I won't vote for a pro-lifer as president. It's one of my key issues, the same way I wouldn't vote for someone who doesn't believe in evolution.

so i guess that means following a democrat to the poor house.

 

[Coustain]

so i guess that means following a democrat to the poor house.

To be quite frank, I think its worse then that, why would I base my political positions on trivial matters like Pro-Life versus Pro-Choice or Evolution vs Creation? Those are personal issues that each of us will always have differing beleifs about.

I am Pro-Life and Creationist, but those are trivial issues compared to Terrorism and Socialism/Communism. If you want to abort your children, thats your business as long as its legal. I, personally would never do that though. And if you want to equate man to nothing more then advanced apes, good for you, that has little bearing IMHO on our national/fiscal security and the fact that Radical Islamists the world over will still kill you no matter what your personal/religious beliefs are.

 

[Halifirien]

Never said those where the only criteria I use to pick a candidate, but they're part of it.