the most overdone topic returns!

[Blackchaoshero]

I try and avoid starting flames, i've noticed the backfire rate is about 75% and usually people have issues IRL or just i don't know them very well but there are a few small things that bother me in this game...
At the top of the list is the RDM who denies the purpose of their existance in a party. Yes, rdm can heal, it's a great reason to have a rdm in your party, they aren't a whm but they're more multi-purpose. Rdm are great enfeeblers and they have some things like gravity that bards can't top. They have nice spells to burst onto the SC or for emergency use to help take the mob down. They have swords to poke the mob and their TP use can be helpful in giving the mob tp and yes, in hurting the mob further... But all of these things aren't exactly exclusive to their jobs, there are jobs that are made especially to wield the pokeys, there's a job specifically to heal with stats leaning that way, there exists a job to nuke efficiently that gets resisted less and hurts more with their magics. These 2 jobs and a bard thrown in between them can cover all the most important enfeebles. One thing that rdm has that's pretty much exclusive (unless you can pull a bard out of a hat, we all know they spawn 'claimed' like leaping lizzy. Obtaining one for your party is a feat of equal difficulty and prestige) is refresh.

REFRESH. That's why you're there. That's why the leader invited you. if they wanted someone to Nuke they'd pick up a blm. If they wanted a melee they'd pick up a monk or a drk or a sam or a drg or a war. If they wanted a real Main healer they'd prefer white mage. (i'm sure if i read through answers to this post i'll see lots of quoting from this section but whatever)

What people want from you when you join a party is REFRESH. they want you to refresh the tank. They want you to refresh the white mage. if the parties damage is all magical giving the nukers mp to work with may well help the effort of getting EXP.

Today for the third time in 4 parties i have been stuck with rdms (who will later likely post some sort of return flame below) who don't know why they're there. do you honestly think in a party with a paladin, a white mage, 2 black mages and a dark knight we want you there to nuke? we need 2 things from you, Refresh and enfeeble. In that order of priority. This particular rdm actually said if i wanted refresh i should get a bard. I have a few words for all you red mages out there who haven't figured it out. If you are incapable of prioritizing refresh the black mage over cast aero III you picked the wrong job. if you can't figure out the WHM will run out of the yagudo drinks he's using because you won't refresh him without me asking or telling you to you picked the wrong job. i'm not saying you can't do all of the above, you can stab the mob, cast all your mp away doing whatever... after everyone has refresh, after you make gravity stuck and you land that paralyze, after you dispel the evasion boost or the defense boost.
The fourth red mage had out-leveled gear, he was missing erase (i don't frown upon this at all, 700k on your subjob? yeah fucking right) but even though he didn't have all the luxury gear and the gil to spend on luxury spells he did his job. he Refreshed 6 people enfeebled the mob and did it all without having to be prodded.

I view myself as a decent person, i hate telling people how to do their jobs and i feel bad every time i tell the red mage to give the pld refresh but i'm frustrated. I just want all of my red mages to give refresh to the people who can do the job best before trying to do their job for them. I want red mages who don't need to be prodded all the time to do their jobs.

So.... in summary face it. You are there to cast refresh, that's pretty much all you have over all the other jobs that can do all that stuff you do, just please shut it and cast refresh.

~Darkies~

 

[Pascal]

REFRESH. That's why you're there. That's why the leader invited you.

What people want from you when you join a party is REFRESH. they want you to refresh the tank. They want you to refresh the white mage. if the parties damage is all magical giving the nukers mp to work with may well help the effort of getting EXP.

who don't know why they're there. do you honestly think in a party with a paladin, a white mage, 2 black mages and a dark knight we want you there to nuke? we need 2 things from you, Refresh and enfeeble.

Point made with out typing a thing.

 

[Pyro]

speaking as a lvl 62 rdm, some rdms could learn a few things, so here you shall learn. ultimate guide to being a rdm post-41:
refresh yourself -> dia2 -> slow -> refresh pld -> paralyze -> frost(once you get it) -> refresh whm -> blind -> gravity -> refresh blm -> drain/aspir/anything -> refresh others
that will make your life so much easier, this is a recommendation not a mandate, use it if you like, otherwise stick it. the only time i believe an elemental spell should be cast is on renkei or as a kill blow.
i hope that gets some of the bad rdms out of your hair chaos.

 

[Faedryth]

I find it funny that no parties ever get made without either Rdm or Bard. It CAN be done, and done well. I mean, with 20 mp a tick from Dark Staff, a Pld should be ready to go in 3 ticks, a Blm can rest whenever he damn well chooses, a Whm can sub a job that COMES with refresh if it wants, as can a Smn. By requiring these jobs, people are just feeding the fire. People are allowed to ride the coattails of the most desired jobs in the game. They dont get weeded out by cost or sheer difficulty like other jobs do.

Point is, Rdm are there for more than Refresh. As is Bard. Bard > Red Mage, I dont care who you are. But, Red Mage enfeeb, refresh, nuke, and heal. Bard refreshes, enfeebs, buffs, and heals. Whm heals, Smn heals/buffs, Blm enfeebs and nukes. Red Mage is the only mage job that has more than 2 things to do. Yeah Refresh is the most important in most cases, but if the party cant keep going, without EVERY single person getting refresh EVERY single fight, then that party wont be hitting the magical chain 5 without serious downtime in between.

Take Pld for example. Some do a great job, a very few do a great job actually. I dread Pld parties usually because you never know which you are getting. 1/10 thinks to use Earth Staff on hard hitting mobs, they want to be a DD Pld once every 6 fights with Spirits Within {All Right!}. Some use about 60 mp in the fight, others use their entire fricking 240 mp on EVERY mob. Some think its cool to throw out Banish 2 or Holy! There are times when I can see this, if you have 0 trouble holding hate, have full mp every fight, and arent harming the party, shit Banish to your hearts content. But when there is downtime after every mob, WITH refresh, no amount of refreshing will matter. I dont care if you have a Rdm and a Bard, I have had this and people STILL blow their MP too fast.

I dont know where you are coming from though. I think expecting to refresh 6 people every fight is a little much. Why does a Dark Knight need refresh? They can aspir, and shouldnt be using that much anyways. 1/6 fights is understandable. Blm has conserve Mp like crazy, and so dont need refresh every fight. Whm will need refresh every fight, Smn will need refresh every fight, and the Rdm will need refresh every fight. Id rather have my Rdm actually LAND silence on a Fascinator instead of having it land Thundaga 3 on the party, then make sure the Drk is refreshed.

Fae

 

[Pascal]

The best red mages are the ones who adapt, knowing when to cast Dia II or Bio II, when to cast shock, when and who to refresh, what enfeeble a certain monster needs. What equipment to swap in for what (Which is the most important talent a RDM can have).

Don’t get me wrong with my first post Blackchaoshero, I agree we are there to refresh, but as most red mages disagree with you, we are there to do other things as well. Us casting refresh only is going to get us flamed just the same. Our job is to support the party with ALL our enfeebling and enhancing spells. Yes a black and white mage can enfeeble but as you also said

there are jobs that are made especially to wield the pokeys, there's a job specifically to heal with stats leaning that way, there exists a job to nuke efficiently that gets resisted less and hurts more with their magics.

Our stats lead us to Enfeebling and Enhancing, we are the ones who do it best, and thus that is our job.

 

[Cythe]

I fully agree with your initial post, but one point I must make...In a party with 2 BLM, a PLD, and a WHM, Bard would be the more efficient job to use. The amount of time spent refreshing 5 people can be a real pain in the ass. I think a Bard would shine more in such situations.
_____
Cythe - Rank 10
Hume Male
75 Paladin

 

[Pascal]

Blackchaoshero what would your response be to me as a RDM if I tell you to stop over nuking that you are burning too much MP?

 

[Faedryth]

Well I think the better example would be to START nuking. As the person wasnt refreshing...not over refreshing... But good question ^^

Fae

 

[Pascal]

Well I think the better example would be to START nuking. As the person wasnt refreshing...not over refreshing... But good question ^^

Fae

I have had to deal with so many BLM that burn 90% of there MP a fight and wonder why we can’t get more than Chain 3. Dark Staff Refresh, Resting only goes so far, but yet they get really up set if you tell them they are burning too much MP.

 

[Faedryth]

Ah good point. I think a Blm should be pumping out maybe 5 nukes a fight max. Shit, a decent chain later levels takes off 1/2 -2/3 life. And when Blm nukes are doing about 500+ dmg, doesnt take too many. Course I dont count Blm nukes during a party, so I think this number is just a guess.

Fae

 

[Answa~]

Juuuust a little correction to Fae, SMN can do more than buff/heal... scratch heal PLEASE... We can buff/SC/MB/debuff/esuna (if you want to count it)... Don't bitch at me for not liking to heal, I do it, but don't count it as the things that SMN can do, because I can easily take the sub away and, lo and behold, the only healing I have are Healing Ruby, Healing Ruby II, Whispering Wind, and Spring Water, which are handy in their own times, but not good for main healing, just very effective support healing... RDM can Refresh, debuff and all his shit w/o a subjob, so count SMN in the same regards, please. We are not less or more, but I have to defend the job I love... ^^;

 

[Falsey]

Answa I wish you didnt bring that up man... If you as SMN arent main healing, I'm getting a RNG or another BLM or another DD job, and just getting a WHM instead then. Your MP, pre 70, is best used healing and buffing the PT. Let the BLM, and I guess if RDM has enough, magic burst.

Dude you arent a DD yet, and you refuse to main heal. The other things you bring to a party, the 1 min blood pacts, do not warrant you a party slot if you do not wish to heal. Shit as BLM then I can main heal and only MB, and still do more damage in that 1 nuke, top of 1207-NON Ancient magic, than you can in your 5 MBs.

 

[Darkdante]

This particular rdm actually said if i wanted refresh i should get a bard

/em does one Hundred slaps to the Redmage.

 

[deathsvengeance]

I like how you capitalized REFESH but not ENFEEBLE Enfeebling is equally important to party success. I hate RDMs that don't know how to play the job.

 

[Eulore]

I mean, with 20 mp a tick from Dark Staff, a Pld should be ready to go in 3 ticks

Umm no. I usually do 2-3 flashes (especially if I'm hasted... which I should be to avoid slow) and a cure4 per fight. so that's... 138-163 mp so that's... about 8 ticks.

If I'm refreshed, I can go through without resting until the end of chain 5ish, and even then I often don't.

 

[Taurothar]

PLD stats: I have a grand total of MAYBE 200 mp in a party (natural MP being under 100) being a Galka and such. I cast at least 2 flashes, and at least 1 cure III during a fight. That's 96 MP. With a RDM I can refresh that mp without resting in under the time it takes to get the next pull in, with a BRD I can refresh maybe 2/3 of it. That MP gimp is the ony thing that holds us Galka back from being ungodly tanks, as it well should to maintain balance. If the RDM is to stuck up to Refresh the PLD, I have to lose TP from Spirits Within (which since I've got it has increased the number of chains my pts have gotten, I have parsed it out) and I don't get nearly enough time to rest more than 2-3 ticks with a RNG thats good. My resting with D.Staff gives me a nice 24 MP/tick but that is not nearly enough to fill up but plenty to keep the chains going, so I usually don't mind. The reason I usually love to have a RDM at my current levels is that I usually fight Crabs, Crabs use defense buffs, RDM have Dispel, enough said. I would use an E.Staff if I could afford one at the moment, but I opted to get Gluttony instead because, from the combo of the +7 vit, and the added shield blocking and def bonuses, it decreases damage similarly. I will try to get some data on this sometime, and post it here but if not, oh well, it's my own personal oppinion on the topic as a PLD. Nobody has ever really complained about my overuse of MP, or lack of hate control due to my own fault (had a few RNG and BLM that were trigger happy and decided they'd like to tank). Refresh is very important to the smoothness of a party's exp, but as Fae said, it is not essential to it's success. In conclusion, RDM should refresh as much as needed, that's what they're there for, to support the party and debuff the mob.

 

[Raesvelg]

To be honest, I've a.) played in parties without refresh, b.) done it WITHOUT a Dark Staff, and c.) never seen much use to the Earth Staff in an Xp party.

On the first two counts, as a Galka, I have <100 MP. Fully healing what I'm going to use in the average fight is fairly simple, even without a dark staff. That having been said, I GREATLY prefer parties with Refresh, be it the spell or the song. Longer chains, fewer headaches, and more damage output from me, the tank. And yeah, 600+ damage every three fights isn't huge, but it's nothing to scoff at either.

On the third count, between equipment, food, protect, and job abilities, it's a VERY rare XP mob that hits me for more than about 70 damage per hit on average. With my shield cutting that in half on a fairly regular basis, and my sword allowing a vaguely respectable damage output relative to what people seem to expect from a Paladin, I don't see the purpose. Against NMs and other things that hit significantly HARDER than mobs I'm exp'ing off of, it most definitely has a purpose.

 

[Mistaya]

Why does a Dark Knight need refresh? They can aspir, and shouldnt be using that much anyways. 1/6 fights is understandable. Blm has conserve Mp like crazy, and so dont need refresh every fight. Whm will need refresh every fight, Smn will need refresh every fight, and the Rdm will need refresh every fight. Id rather have my Rdm actually LAND silence on a Fascinator instead of having it land Thundaga 3 on the party, then make sure the Drk is refreshed.

If the drk has refresh he can stun Thundaga3 '-'; or a bomb toss which silence doesnt prevent. And he can lower the mobs agi or other stats to help everyone! Aspir is great but not all mobs are aspirable. And even on ones that are it is unlikely he can keep his own mp up with that spell alone.

no 1/6 fights is NOT understandable. 1/3 or 1/4 please. A drk on an empty tank is a very unhappy (and semi useless) drk.

 

[Eulore]

I opted for sword over E. Staff because I sold mine at level 54ish, shield skill is hard to level and it helps for exp, and at my level I can SC darkness with a Sam (they work best so they can SC with me and another DD), that's about 600 + MB of damage (and yes I can get 100+tp per fight with no +acc >_>), so would you rather refresh me and have 600 + MB damage, or make me rest and not get said benefit (I usually SC at the beginning of the fight)...

You chose ;D

 

[CubsWoo]

From watching my girlfriend Silvereyes play 52 levels of RDM, here's what I'd like to say to prospective RDMs:

1) KNOW YOUR MOB. http://mysterytour.web.infoseek.co.jp/ffxi/us/monster_ability/mobws.htm This site is your goddamn Holy Bible. Know what you're fighting.

2) When fighting Beastmen, if there's a WHM, RDM or PLD in the possible group of Beastmen, lead with Dispel. And keep doing it until at least Shell is gone - that's going to help you land those debuffs. With BLM-types, Blaze/Ice Spikes getting Dispelled is going to save your healer a bit of MP.

3) With caster types, Silence takes priority over Refresh. If you don't get your Refresh right away, that extra MP can wait so you don't eat a -ga III or the mob doesn't heal himself for 6-700. Every time I see a RDM casting Blind while the WHM tries to Silence, I die a little inside.

4) A Dark Staff is required. A Light Staff is helpful. A great RDM is going to have the other ones to help their debuffs stick. Barring that, a HQ wand can do.

5) Tell your BLMs to do the elemental debuffs - they've got better skill in it than you.

6) Just because you can Convert every 10 minutes doesn't mean you should get more and more MP inefficient as your get near the end of the 10 minute timer. Conserve enough MP and you can Chain 5 pretty constantly without it. And for the love of Christ, don't Convert mid-fight and then bitch when an AoE kills you.

7) Gear swaps, gear swaps, gear swaps. Bare minimum switch your INT and MND rings for each spell. +MP rings only for Convert (or if you're an Elvaan or Galka, and even then only for the first Refresh.)

And on the PLD issue, get a Dark and Earth Staff, PLEASE. If it's a damage issue, save it - your 400 damage a fight (if that) is not significant. And it's not a cost issue, either, because I can't think of a tank/melee job cheaper than PLD. Hell, you can wear your AF pretty much to endgame, and Gluttony is what, 500k? 600? Almost all the stuff that replaces your AF is rare/ex too. Shell out the 400k or so for the staves. Hell, if you only have 100 MP or so, get some Astrals or Electrums for that first Cure and swap in your Vigor/Jelly/whatever rings after that.