The Rapture

Orchid said:
Let it be noted here and now that I stand in opposition to your god. If there is no higher existence in the universe than the being described as god in your bible, if the ruler of the entire universe is a pendantic and vicious child like the one described in the OT, or even his gentler surrogate absentee parent figure jesus, then I for one would rather fade into thoughtless nothingness, or rot in hell than call him master. As for the rapture. People are thinking, living, breathing life. Your god tortures his creation, he doesnt love it, and he doesnt care. He's as alien to humanity as if he came from another world. Sexless, loveless, wrathful, he creates evil by existing and does nothing to fight it. Instead he makes pawns of his pets, offering candy to such-and-such and eternal torture to the rest. Get over yourself and your worship of this being, go outside in the sun and enjoy this world and this life instead of waiting and hoping for death. If you have to see god in the sunshine and the life and the smile on every baby's face then do so.
When youre dead or raptured or whatever you can spit off your lofty cloud onto the people you despised fighting for their lives against god's hordes of demons and feel superior. Here, youre just a nutjob like that crazy cultist on fox.
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Didn't Lucifer say this once
 
And who created lucifer?
 
Orchid said:
And who created lucifer?
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GOD but he choose to bite the hand that feeds him in jealousy for his much younger sibling
 
because god created him that way right? (win)
 
Orchid said:
because god created him that way right? (win)
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he choose his own path as do you, as do I and as everyone else does
 
satan isnt a fitting counterpoint for god, one of the main criticisms I have about the religion is its complete lack of balance. Jehova creates his counterpoint, but creates him weaker. Theres a "war" in which all parties know who will be the victor, and then a "cold war" where they fight through the means of pawns (man). In christianity though there is no need for either war, since the only true power is god. It's a bit like playing an incredibly complex game of solitaire in a pitch black room for infinite stakes when you dont know the rules. Thats christianity for you. A being playing a game, not caring about the fate of the cards, for reasons noone knows, and the outcome of the game is unimportant since then all the cards are burned. Enjoy being that 2 of spades.
 
Orchid said:
satan isnt a fitting counterpoint for god, one of the main criticisms I have about the religion is its complete lack of balance. Jehova creates his counterpoint, but creates him weaker. Theres a "war" in which all parties know who will be the victor, and then a "cold war" where they fight through the means of pawns (man). In christianity though there is no need for either war, since the only true power is god. It's a bit like playing an incredibly complex game of solitaire in a pitch black room for infinite stakes when you dont know the rules. Thats christianity for you. A being playing a game, not caring about the fate of the cards, for reasons noone knows, and the outcome of the game is unimportant since then all the cards are burned. Enjoy being that 2 of spades.
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ok what I think you are trying to say that good and evil should be equal, when in fact good should and does dominate ore evil. so no there is no balance or you could say that the balance lays at 70/30 or 75/25. In a battle of rightous vs. evil, there is no battle right wins, but that is describing our souls and the divine battle between right and wrong, but you are trying to compare it to our wars, when in true comparison it would be like comparing a bucket to a USB
 
Arkangel said:
ok what I think you are trying to say that good and evil should be equal, when in fact good should and does dominate ore evil. so no there is no balance or you could say that the balance lays at 70/30 or 75/25. In a battle of rightous vs. evil, there is no battle right wins, but that is describing our souls and the divine battle between right and wrong, but you are trying to compare it to our wars, when in true comparison it would be like comparing a bucket to a USB
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Nope thats not what i'm saying at all. Lemme try again.

I dont think good and evil should be equal. I do think however, that if youre going to have a system in which there are, to all intents and purposes, two sides then those sides should be equal, or at the very least capable of opposition.. Christianity has 2 sides, but they are UNequal. God will always dominate satan, and theoretically by being all-knowing, all-powerful, etc.. satan only exists because god wants him to.

The wars I referred to are biblical not mortal wars. the war in heaven, satan and his followers vs god and his, and the 2nd war also god v satan, but through intermediaries instead of celestial conflict. Those intermediaries in this case are man.

To summarize.

If god is the supreme force in the universe, then all that happens is by his design. This includes satans rebellion, all the "paths" and such you want to talk about, and human "choice."

Its torturing his creations for being how he made them that I find petulant and childish.
 
And just to head you off, im discussing religious theory as it relates to christianity which is a seperate thing from objective or subjective concepts of evil and good. In christianity anything god does no matter how evil it seems is "good" and anything satan does is by definition evil. Doesnt matter that in reality evil can arise from good intent, and vice versa. I'm simply debating that in christianity good and evil are both aspects of a single god, though I suppose I should be glad that in his evil aspect (though his pawn satan) he's less malignant than the evil (read malicious, capricious, and malevolent) dieties of other religions, in that he merely opposes himself rather than say demanding blood sacrifices and pain. (he waits till you die to inflict that on you)
 
Orchid said:
Nope thats not what i'm saying at all. Lemme try again.

I dont think good and evil should be equal. I do think however, that if youre going to have a system in which there are, to all intents and purposes, two sides then those sides should be equal, or at the very least capable of opposition.. Christianity has 2 sides, but they are UNequal. God will always dominate satan, and theoretically by being all-knowing, all-powerful, etc.. satan only exists because god wants him to.

The wars I referred to are biblical not mortal wars. the war in heaven, satan and his followers vs god and his, and the 2nd war also god v satan, but through intermediaries instead of celestial conflict. Those intermediaries in this case are man.

To summarize.

If god is the supreme force in the universe, then all that happens is by his design. This includes satans rebellion, all the "paths" and such you want to talk about, and human "choice."

Its torturing his creations for being how he made them that I find petulant and childish.
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OK, if that is how you say it then the only torture GOD did to us was give us free will. He gave us a pointed stick and told us to hunt and eat fish, we turned it into a spear and throw it at our neighbors. He gave us the free will to decide what we want to do with our lives, we chose to use that will to develope ways to harm one another. He gave us the ability to think for ourselves, with that we decided not to follow him. He didnt make Lucifer turn against him, he choose that fate, GOD just knew it was goona happen, which he does now. GOD dosent make us do things, if did it would be a completly different world. He choose to be hated because of his absence to intervine instead of being hated as a dictator
 
Orchid said:
And just to head you off, im discussing religious theory as it relates to christianity which is a seperate thing from objective or subjective concepts of evil and good. In christianity anything god does no matter how evil it seems is "good" and anything satan does is by definition evil. Doesnt matter that in reality evil can arise from good intent, and vice versa. I'm simply debating that in christianity good and evil are both aspects of a single god, though I suppose I should be glad that in his evil aspect (though his pawn satan) he's less malignant than the evil (read malicious, capricious, and malevolent) dieties of other religions, in that he merely opposes himself rather than say demanding blood sacrifices and pain. (he waits till you die to inflict that on you)
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Maybe you could explain this a bit more clearly ^.^
 
I think youre missing out on the concept of free will. "Free will" in christian terms doesnt mean you choose your own life and destiny, it means you follow the arbitrary rules he sets forth, and if you manage to do it all, by the letter, regardless of any injustice, evil, or misery it creates then you get to suck his dick for eternity. If you dont he has you tortured for eternity instead. And he can apparently end the game at any time so that youre always looking over your shoulder in paranoid fear of the imposing and dictitorial god that you say is being absent to show hes not a dictator..
 
Orchid said:
I think youre missing out on the concept of free will. "Free will" in christian terms doesnt mean you choose your own life and destiny, it means you follow the arbitrary rules he sets forth, and if you manage to do it all, by the letter, regardless of any injustice, evil, or misery it creates then you get to suck his dick for eternity. If you dont he has you tortured for eternity instead. And he can apparently end the game at any time so that youre always looking over your shoulder in paranoid fear of the imposing and dictitorial god that you say is being absent to show hes not a dictator..
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Free will, you choose not to follow, if it wasent free you would be bowing to him now, you uderstand?
 
Arkangel said:
Maybe you could explain this a bit more clearly ^.^
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um. ill try.

God = all powerful
Satan = not so much, runs god's private torture camp.

Satan = opposes god, lvl 10 yagudo
God = 75 pld

Now satan can oppose god all he wants, god has all the power.
But god doesnt have to care, satan is not a threat because he designed the universe that way.

But god can have satan kick your ass. And will, just to show hes more powerful than you. And because god apparently thinks its fun.
 
Orchid said:
um. ill try.

God = all powerful
Satan = not so much, runs god's private torture camp.

Satan = opposes god, lvl 10 yagudo
God = 75 pld

Now satan can oppose god all he wants, god has all the power.
But god doesnt have to care, satan is not a threat because he designed the universe that way.

But god can have satan kick your ass. And will, just to show hes more powerful than you. And because god apparently thinks its fun.
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OK, True but not ture, if you would go back to the father son momment GOD and Lucifer had, after GOD laid the lvl 75PLD/37NIN smackdown on satans lvl 10 Yagudo ass
GOD said for betraying me you will forever spend eternity in this burning dimension. Satan said Good for me, I would rather be king of this place i name hell rather than bow to you and i will see that i become king over your other creations as well everything else you love i will try to take
GOD said only if they are foolish enough to fall for your tricks and follow you. that isn't the entire conversation but that was the jist of it
 
Read Me

try the book called Dante's Inferno
 
And then god went back inside, and satan moved out to the slums and got a job. God ran the company that satan worked for though, so satan got a shitty position. But thats why god made satan in the first place right? Kinda like how a corporation might create a bad mexican economy to create mexican migrant workers if they were unscrupulous and all powerful.
 
Orchid said:
because god created him that way right? (win)
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God gave angels the same gift as humans: Free will and free thought.

If god does torture us as you say, he could have easily NOT given free will or thought and just had us running around bashing each other with sticks.

Lucifer and the Fallen Angels were the same way. They were a creation of god, CHOSE to rebel, and was punished for it.

God did not know that Lucifer would rebel, and thus god didnt "know" that there would be an "evil".

I know of the sayings of the "All knowing God" but that doesnt mean he can see into the future. Its because of the free will of creations that does not allow him to see past the present.

Do you think that if a mass murderer was about to be born, and god knew this, do you think that he wouldnt do something about it? (I wouldnt necissarily say kill it)

Lucifer chose to bite the hand that feeds him as was stated before. Did god create Lucifer for this sole purpose? No.

For all intensive purposes, you are a prime example of how Lucifer must have been. Disbelieving, discontent, etc.

Again, I respect your decision of religion and I pray for you. (Wheter you want it or not.)
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And would you really rather burn in hell, where even your worst nightmares are mere childish dreams compared to the tortures you would endure?

Again, I pray for you.
 
Do you have to agree with everything? No.

You can live your life as you please (assuming that you dont do anything extremely stupid like murder or rape or something like that) and still end up in the kingdom of heaven.
 
Alerith said:
God gave angels the same gift as humans: Free will and free thought.

If god does torture us as you say, he could have easily NOT given free will or thought and just had us running around bashing each other with sticks.

Lucifer and the Fallen Angels were the same way. They were a creation of god, CHOSE to rebel, and was punished for it.

God did not know that Lucifer would rebel, and thus god didnt "know" that there would be an "evil".

I know of the sayings of the "All knowing God" but that doesnt mean he can see into the future. Its because of the free will of creations that does not allow him to see past the present.

Do you think that if a mass murderer was about to be born, and god knew this, do you think that he wouldnt do something about it? (I wouldnt necissarily say kill it)

Lucifer chose to bite the hand that feeds him as was stated before. Did god create Lucifer for this sole purpose? No.

For all intensive purposes, you are a prime example of how Lucifer must have been. Disbelieving, discontent, etc.

Again, I respect your decision of religion and I pray for you. (Wheter you want it or not.)
---

And would you really rather burn in hell, where even your worst nightmares are mere childish dreams compared to the tortures you would endure?

Again, I pray for you.
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I could not have said it better myself, but i have to disagree with the GOD not being all knowing, i am sure after the angel rebelion GOD said i already knew what was going to happen, Allseeing reffers to not only seeing the straight line but all the infinate paths that could might and might not have layed before us
 
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