The Ridill

Phraust

Phraust

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So... I finally got off my ass.

I tested the Multi-Hit rate of the Ridill, and compared it to different job combinations. This was to answer the question: "Does Double Attack reduce the amount of hits produced by a ridill." Where two theories arose:

Theory 1: Based on a test a player did(Searain of Garuda) on BG/FFXIclopedia, they killed Robber Crabs in Kuftal tunnel for hours on end and put in 1000 attack rounds fully geared, sans any Double Attack enhancing gear/food, and tested the results. His results showed that if you added double attack gear, your Triple attack rate was reduced diproportionately to the number of Single attacks.

Theory 2: Based on assumptions the Ridill should lose an equal amount of Singles as Triples into doubles with the added presence of the Job trait/enhancements. Based on the premise that it would be easier to code.

Test configuration:
Lebros Cavern Assault: "Excavation Duty"
Jobs:

Drk/Drg.
Thf/Drg.
War/Drg.
War/Drg + Askar Korazin & Brutal Earring.

Merits: Triple Attack: 5/5, Sword 8/8.
(My war is pretty much unmerited... No DA merits, etc.)

Method: Enter assault and hit rocks completely naked, save for the weapon, and Korazin/Earring in the final test.

Results:


Drk/Drg:

Triples: 17.21%
Doubles: 50.93%
Sinlges: 32.09%
Total: 430 Rounds. 795 Swings. (1.85 Swings/Round)


Thf/Drg:

Triples: 21.86%
Doubles: 47.21%
Sinlges: 29.93%
Total: 430 Rounds. 821 Swings. (1.91 Swings/Round)


War/Drg:

Triples: 15.81%
Doubles: 55.35%
Sinlges: 28.84%
Total: 430 Rounds. 804 Swings. (1.87 Swings/Round)


War/Drg + Askar Korazin & Brutal Earring:

Triples: 18.37%
Doubles: 59.77%
Sinlges: 21.86%
Total: 430 Rounds. 845 Swings. (1.97 Swings/Round)


So if you take Drk as your "Baseline Reading", when you switch to thief, you gain roughly 5% more Triples, the sacrifice of lost Singles/Doubles is directly proportionate to the pre-existing ratio, the same seems to be true with the warrior gains:

Drk: 17:51:32 [T,D,S]
Thf: 22:47:31 (+4.65%, -3.72%, -1.16%)
War: 16:55:29 (-1.40%, +4.42%, -3.26%)

WarD: 18:60:22 (+1.16%, 8.84%, -10.23%)

My Current Pondering:

1) Why did Triple Attack increase when I used Double Attack gear, when other testers have seen a decreasein triple attack rates when you add Double Attack Gear.

2) What would be the affects to the tests if I were to dual wield a weapon.


I think I will run these tests again at a later date. It's an extremely boring process, and requires me to waste a pack of Assault Tags. If someone wants to be awesome and take one for the team in the name of science, please replicate my experiment and post your results.
 
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Nice post, pretty interesting stuff Phraust. I think you pretty much answered your question without needs for future tests. If I were you (and had a Ridill ; ;), what I'd like to find out is how can I get more single --> double atack. Here's what I mean:

Your tests illustrate what should be a given, the number of attack rounds isn't going to change, in X amount of time, it'll always be the same since you're not switching haste gear etc, the delay is the same. So by not creating any extra attack rounds, any rounds that is switched to Double Attack is going to be one less Triple or Single. Hence the proportionate % reduction to the DA% increase. If you add the delta% of Single and triple, you get almost the same % increase for Doubles (the small sample pool explains the slight difference). So how can you make sure the "replaced" attack are singles and not tripples.

One thing your tests seem to show is how the mechanics of deciding between single, double or tripple attack works. This is pure speculation and would need some testing but my guess would be at the start of every attack round, you "roll a dice" to see if you tripple or not. If not, roll again for double. In case of a second negative, you single attack. If this is true, your tripple shouldn't be affected since they are rolled first. The single WILL be affected since your gear will come into play in the second roll, increasing the number of "positive" dice rolls, reducing the number of times it gets to the single default attack.

If we look at both WAR results, I'd be inclined to think this is true. The small % increase in tripple (adds up to what, 4 more tripple?) with gear is not really of consequences in my opinion given the small sample pool.

The other way I can see the attack mechanics work is you roll one dice, a result over X gives you a tripple, a result between X and Y gives you a double and a result below Y gives you a single. However, in that case, the mechanics works for someone using a non-multi hit weapon, since any +DA gear is basically a bonus to the dice result. But if you put on a Ridill, your +DA becomes a +tripple, which I don't think SE intended. But you never know.

More tests would confirm one or the other. If Tripple always increases with more +DA gear, then the second scenario might be true. But I think you'll find the first one to be correct. Overall about the same Tripple, more Double and proportinally less single.

Think that makes sense, still freaking early. And I'd gladly help with tests, get me a Ridill!
 
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Your THF result threw me off, I think there's a typo in the Single attak stat, should be 29% and not 39%? The total of all 3 % exceeds 100.

Checking ffxipedia, it's speculated that the weapon "chance of multi-hitting" is calculated before job trait. With your preliminary results, that seems to be the case. If we take DRK for a base line like you suggested, having no multi-attack job trait, we can notice the following:

A) With THF main, the first "roll" for weapon should give the same % repartition as the DRK, however, when the weapon does not procures, then the Tripple trait of THF has a chance to. So between the 2 results, you should see about the same Double % (neither job having anything affecting it), more Tripple and less Single, which is the case right now (I'm aware of the % difference in Double hits but again, more tests could even things out).

B) With WAR main, the same thing should happen except instead of Tripple attack increasing, it should be Double attacks. Tripple attacks between DRK and WAR should be about the same %, more double on WAR and less single. Again, this seems to be confirmed.

So if we assume that the order of determining if a multi-hit will happen or not is weapon, then trait, where does the gear fit in? I would think it goes into account on the "weapon" roll, being all gear makes sense to be calculated together. I'm trying to think of a way to test if gear comes into play on weapon or trait roll but I can't think of one that would show a definitive change in either.

Food for thoughts I guess.
 
Very interesting read and reading about this is what I will ever do. Because my chances of ever going for a Ridill is 1%. Because my bulk of jobs are mage oriented and the only melee job I have merited is BLU and sadly (my hypotesis is SE fears BLU with a Ridill) he can't use it. ; ;

In your current pondering, if you dual weild the Ridill you will notice an accuracy reduction. Because you will change /drg for /nin. You can make up for it in gear/weapon. But anyways, it will be interesting to find out.
 
What parser did you use to get the hits per round and that kind of stuff. I've never seen one that details double attacks and triple attacks, nor do I understand how they can figure that out via chat logs.
 
@ Versiko: Fixed the error in the thief Data lol... sorry kinda flubbed on that one.

Taurothar said:
What parser did you use to get the hits per round and that kind of stuff. I've never seen one that details double attacks and triple attacks, nor do I understand how they can figure that out via chat logs.
Click to expand...

I set up a notepad and watched. Every time it hit a single, I'd hit 1, double 2, triple 3, etc. It wasn't that hard, just time consuming.
 
PC+1 go!

Well what I am thinking, is that if given a larger pool of tests, is that the numbers woudl even out and the DA's would (And kinda already do) cancel out. SO the only merit to using DA gear is to enhance your main hand; which effectively demerits any DA enhancement by half at that point. So is 2.5% DA better than let's say 6 Attack, 5 Attack + 2 accuracy, 3 Dex, 1 Str + 3 accuracy etc? The answer is still "yes" and that solves the "Brutal Earring Debate". Is 0.5% - 1.5% better than 5 Attack + 6 Accuracy? Probably not; AF1 feet are out, as are AF2 Legs(Although for other reasons). Askar... +5 STP, DA ~1% efffective, etc... Hard to say at this point now, I's like an E.Body... Merits: Is 2.5% Effective DA better than lowering the recasts on both Aggressor/Berserk?

100 rounds of attack + 2.5% DA = roughly 102.5 attaks = 2.5% increase in damage off the top.

Lowering the recase from 5 min to 4:10 = 16.66% reduction in time between Job abilities. Effectivly lowering your "non enhanced" time down to 1:10 rather than 2 minutes, which is a ~42% reduction in "downtime" thus a 42% increase on 25% more attack which is roughly 10%. If that equated to a direct translation to damage it would be a 10% increase in effectiveness. Even is the mob resisted half of that, it'd still be a 5% increase... 5% > 2.5%, Lowering recasts wins.
 
So you're saying that every merit, +1, etc of Double attack is half that in %? I disagree with this theory entirely. If this is only in relation to the Ridill, then my appologies, but I've seen significant double attack rate increase from my merits and other people's brutal earrings.
 
Your sample size is kind of low which is why I imagine your numbers might be a bit skewed. You answered your own question with your tests alone though.

If you look at the #hits/round on your no +double attack test and divide it by #hits/round of the +double attack equip testing you will see the amount of double attack you gained is pretty much about what you added. You gained roughly 6.1% more hits when you added on those two pieces of equipment. It probably didn't round up to 7 due to ridill having a triple attack chance so you weren't adding a pure 7% to your bottomline, but it was close.
 
Phraust said:
I set up a notepad and watched. Every time it hit a single, I'd hit 1, double 2, triple 3, etc. It wasn't that hard, just time consuming.
Click to expand...

OMFGBBQ! Admitting to using thirdparty programs! You evil THF!
 
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