Thf at post 60 [Help me out!]

Demonknightx

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Demonknightx
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Demon Knightx
Well since im starting to finally get into EXP parties as my lvl 60 thief, i would like to ask for advice from any thf out there. Do i still SATA like i have been for the last 30 levels? or with this Assassin trait, do i start to do things differently? i would just like to maximize my effectiveness and do my job the best i can, so any tips or pointers would be great 8)

*got my scorps harness and -loving- it =D*
(took me only 2 months - -)
 
wow thanks ora - -... smartass lol.

how bout other *thiefs* out there give me advice, not mana-burning Blms

/stare Ora
 
I really really really really liked getting Assassin. I got pretty sick of the SATA dance, esp with bad PTs :|
After 60 I started soloing SA and just doing TA+WS, makes it really simple....cause sometimes only the tank has /war >_>;

You can either break them apart or keep going the way you are, from what I've seen, damage is about the same in breaking them apart.
 
How did you SATA before you hit 60? The answer entirely depends on what you used to do.

I am of the school of thievery that doesn't split if at all possible. Therefore, assassin is an alternative and not a normal feature of the party. I do this because a party that can turn a mob at will so I can plant onto the tank is a very beautiful thing to watch. It is the epitome of party cooperation. Technically speaking it is also superior. There are some TAWS's that a blm can outnuke. There are few SATAWS's that a blm can. A more powerful close also does more skillchain damage.

However, there are some parties that cannot reliably turn a mob from a tank--either because of something the tank is/isn't doing or something the partner is/isn't doing. In that event, you have assassin.

Here's what I do post-60:

1. Puller comes in with the mob. Meleers have around 80 tp at this point. Thief's sata timers are well on their way to cooling or already cold.
2. Tank provokes. Not the partner, the tank.
3. Debuffs...typical initial stuff. Nothing insane like Cure V's or Firagas. Tp gain to 100 percent early in the fight.
4. Partner provokes. Partner uses weaponskill. Mob turns from the tank.
5. Thief uses SATAWS back onto the tank, closing the skillchain. Paladin then uses flash and provoke, or nin just uses provoke to seal the deal hatewise.
6. Tp gain with the intent to begin the next fight with a skilchain in a similar manner.

Sometimes your paladin tries too hard, or sometimes your partner either doesn't sub war or doesn't have the ability to turn the mob for reasons that belong on the flame board and not here. Either way, it's your job to make the most of the situation. In that event, assassin kicks in. Same tactics apply, but the mob doesn't have to be turned.

Post-60, build yourself a TAWS set. It makes a big difference, and it comes in handy. Even in good parties, sometimes the mob just doesn't do what you want it to. Post-60 it's no one's fault but your own if you waste a SA.
6. Mage bursts.
 
Usually the way i SATA'd was: i would hit both b4 i pulled, then SATA on the tank back at camp. then i'd build TP for the usual SC, and then i woulda SATA + Ws whoever was facing the back of the mob. My tank for the past 10 levels, Taurothar, was and still is awesome at keeping hate, which makes my job a hell of a lot easier.

I might try to experiment breaking up the 2 and seeing how that works. Maybe if i can get my Tp gain up high enough i can crack out a Ws every 30-45 secs, and maybe Sc since i have a SAM friend i like to party with.
 
I would not suggest using SATAWS onto anyone but a tank. I used to do the same as you--prime my sata, and then use my partner. That resulted in more than one dead partner. After 60, meleers are often quite competent to deal enough damage for your added hate to kill them.

Priming loses its effectiveness at level 55. I would not suggest a thief use priming tactics beyond that level.
 
After 60, TAWS becomes sufficient.

With my set up, I have a Macro thats SATA and two macros that are SA and TA. I try to pay attention to what the mob does. If I see the mob staying on the tank, I'll hit my TA macro then my WS macro (I hear alot of people who have a SATAWS macro made up for just one hit, I've had lag kill too many attempts at that, I have an individual WS macro, but do as your comfortable with.) By doing this, SA isn't lost in the mob not turning. Once again, accidents happen and I'll see the mob spin for a split second toward my partner and hit my SATA macro, but I try to avoid wasting my SA on the mob when I can. SATAWS will always be > TAWS though. When you can get it to work, do it, but don't get frustrated if your parnter doesn't pull hate enough and your stuck with a TAWS and a separate SA.

Also, as you get higher up, dont try to SATA the tank for a hate boost at the start of a fight so much. You don't want to make your partner wait for a timer, and you and your partner's TP will hit ~100% right when your SA and TA are back to 0:00 anyways. Let the tank provoke at the start of the fight and just gain your tp. If your partner has /war, have them provoke it right before their WS so that it'll turn just in time and then go for it. Warriors seem to be experts for pulling hate off of a tank for SATA, but other jobs do a pretty good job at it. If your partner doesn't have /war, you might be forced to TAWS and SA separately. No biggie.

I suggest you just keep doing what you have been doing though, you'll start learning whats more efficient. I continued as I was and I started seeing that certain aspects would be more efficient if I changed what I was doing. I used to always be an advocate for a preloaded SATA, but now its much easier to just use them strictly for Skillchains if the party setup is adequate. You gotta live it and learn it. You'll adjust to the changes and learn from your mistakes ^^. 60+THF becomes so much fun ^_~ Keep at it!
 
Heres how I use Assassin (changes depending on mob/tank/con/etc but this is for the most part pre 73).

Go to pull. If you don't have TP use TA (NIN tank mostly, its my opinion that THFs are wasted on a PLD and haven't partied with one since 50's). Use ranged. Immediately TA onto NIN and then SA seperately. That way no one gets any uneeded hate, you still do the same damage if not more and you put hate on the tank (enough hate for any NIN). If your good you can time it so you can TA > SA > TAWS right away. Once you have TP for SC use TAWS, remember the tank will have the hate from your initial TA so mob shouldn't turn and it doesn't matter anyway. TAWS does damn near the same as SATAWS anyway and if you have ever screwed around you would notice that TAWS + SA (seperate) adds up to more than SATAWS. But that doesn't matter because your job is to secure hate on the NIN and this is the best way. First voke = noob way of doing things.

If you do have TP (partner too) open up with SATAWS SC right at start because partner should turn mob that early in fight. Learn how to precharge SATA and WS while engaging for opening SC. Takes practice. so you can precharge SATA on pull, when mobs gives voked by tank SC partner goes and turns mob, you engage, when your drawing your weapons use your DE or SB macro to SC. Then you can TA and SA separate if mob is still not under 1/2 health when timer is up. If its under 1/2 health don't bother cause your timer wont be up for next fight.

\Have to leave work ill reply later.
 
Never prime a sata in hopes of skillchaining at the start of a fight. It's better to have cold timers by the time the fight starts so that you can gain tp instead of standing there disengaged. Plus it's dangerous. "If you're good" usually ends up being "If the server likes you." If it doesn't like you that particular second, you prematurely blow your sata.

In a ninja party, priming does the party more harm than good. The problem ninjas encounter isn't keeping hate during the first 15 seconds of the fight. It's keeping it in the face of barrage and a weaponskill, or a magic burst. Thus, the ninja doesn't need a primed trick attack. They need hate when hate spikes happen, and that means giving the tank all you have right before the magic burst. Again, when TAWS isn't enough and it goes for the BLM because they firaga'd for 1200, you didn't do your job. TAWS does not come close to doing the same damage that SATAWS does, even if both equipment sets are extraordinary.

Once you plant a TA onto a ninja, it's over. The meleeing partner has no chance to turn the mob, and thus you perpetuate the suboptimal by priming trick attack. Ta + a later TAWS < SATAWS in terms of hate control, because SATAWS transfers hate exactly when hate is needed. NO shadow depletion. No damage depletion. It's incredibly easy to rip a mob off a ninja with a provoke and a weaponskill. That's the beauty of the nin-thief relationship. If your skillchain is taking your mob from 90% to 5%, you're probably fighting too low. Ideally you should skillchain at the start of fights, use only one Sa and Ta per fight, and exit the fight with around 80% tp. Thus, the best thieves working with the best parties don't whore their Sa and Ta. It stays cold and ready for the skillchain only, and the party doesn't need any priming to help it along.

The thief who primes on the pull almost invariably gets waited on sooner or later, because their TA timer is too hot to skillchain. You should NEVER be unable to skillchain when both partners have 100 tp. Ever. That 150-300 extra damage at the start of the fight is not worth waiting 30 seconds for TA to cool down in order to skillchain. And it happens. I know it does, because I used to do it and it is unavoidable. A thief has to know when to put their abilities on the shelf and save them, even if it initially makes sense to try your best to use downtime to your advantage.

When at all possible, attempt to SATAWS the tank while at the same time letting the tank provoke on the incoming pull. That is, try your best to create that 2 second window about 10 seconds into a fight where the tank isn't tanking, and exploit that window. That has always been and will continue to be the best scenario for a thief-proficient party.

In short, how does a great thief use assassin? Well ideally, they don't. Suboptimally all these techniques probably work well enough though.
 
Wow, this is -way- more than i expected, and i really appreciate it guys. Now i just gotta go practice and perfect everything ^^. i think i might print this page out so i can reference it if i ferget ^^ (bad memory x_x)

But yea, just wanted to extend my thanks, and by all means, if u have any other strategies that you wouldnt mind sharing, go ahead and post ^^ its fun hearing from other people that enjoy this job as much as i do.

so yea, time to go make some new macros and give this stuff a test drive >:D!
 
One more piece of advice...just because you may know the optimal doesn't mean you should get pissy at the party if they can't cut optimal. Pickup paladin parties usually can't do optimal unless the paladin has played thief before, so you have to use assassin. Even in parties with 73-75 paladins who have seen and done everything, I usually end up splitting. I'll try mob-turning for a couple fights and if it doesn't work I'll ask the party to drop it. Sometimes the party clicks. Sometimes it doesn't.

Learning when to give up and make-do is just so much more practical than teaching the paladin a new way of thought that they may even take offense to. At that point you have to ask yourself who takes precidence: optimal paladin tactics or optimal thief tactics? It's probably paladin tactics unless they're a very special paladin who understands the thief position very well.
 
Yea, i've always believed communication solves problems best. If something isnt working i usually say something, but try not to be preachy. As for the paladin, ive only partied with Taur for the last 10 levels, so if theres ever a problem we sort it out pretty quickly.

the most important thing i've learned is how important that SATA timer is, i really gotta watch it close and get it so im comfortable in whatever situation arises in a party =)
 
Yeah...those timers consume your every thought as a thief, because honestly that's all you are. Your weapon sucks. Your pickiness is horrible. You can't DoT worth a dime--a thief damages in bursts and then has to cool off, so the trick is to be "on" when you need to be and "off" when you don't need to be on. It's as if you are a mage with time as your MP, which is why some people aren't so crazy when they don't consider thieves to be meleers.

It is a great thief foul to be "counting down to skillchain." That is--to have the tp to skillchain and not the ability to do so. But it's also a huge foul to have your abilities lay cold and unused for more than 45 seconds--you could have used them back then and been nonetheworse for it now. But at the same time you can't just start throwing random abilities as soon as you have them, because you may not have them when they would better serve you.
 
I saw earlier someone say you shouldn't SATA on anyone but a tank. >_> Pardon you, but, do it on a DRG post 60. ~_^ They can deal with the hate.
 
Heh yea i was in a party with a Drg last night, completely forgot about super jump till they brought it up, but even with the SATA WS on the drg, it didnt peel hate off Taurothar, our pld. Hes a freakin Hate machine <_<
 
The Druw said:
I saw earlier someone say you shouldn't SATA on anyone but a tank. >_> Pardon you, but, do it on a DRG post 60. ~_^ They can deal with the hate.

If a thief isn't adding hate to a tank, then why did the party invite them? While thieves can hold their own when it comes to damage-per-fight (read: Not the same as damage over time), the most unique feature of a thief is transfer of hate. Dragoon is nice sometimes because a minor feature of theirs is negation of hate, but there's no reason to negate hate when you could use it to your advantage. Even a dragoon should try to provoke+weaponskill to turn the mob. They're fully capable of it. Instead of making it disappear, it could go to help the ranger or black or white mage. If the dragoon cancels it, the blm can't nuke as hard. The ranger can't go balls-out.
 
Yea, thats true. truth be told, the Drg in my party never had to use super jump =X he would jump, high jump, voke, and then use Ws and it still didnt turn. It was really kind of fun to see what extent we had to do to peel hate off him. (the only fun in that party anyways, Exp wasnt realy up to par for the amount of work put into each fight, but exp *is* exp)

In the end, i guess, its a matter of having fun. If you're able to party with friends, go with that. That way u have time to experiment with new things, like i was able to do =P broadening ur horizens and finding new things make the usual repitition in this game seem less important. Cuz seriously, you level up off the same size and color crab from lvl 14 to lvl 60, doing the same weaponskills, swinging to same type of weapon, ect. ect.

A little off topic yea, but still ^^
 
To say that, removing hate from ourselves is a minor feature of our job, leads me to believe you don't know much about Dragoon, no offense intended.
 
In a xp party I can't imagine it being a major feature, since I certainly wouldn't claim "everyone's ta buddy" as a major job description, nor could I see a dragoon going berserk and screwing up hate like a ranger or blm could. Not that dragoons aren't great and maybe the hate negation has application outside of a pt, but I just don't see something like "get the dragoon, they have hate clearance" as something that's often said.

Again, not trying to bash dragoons whatsoever. They work great with thieves. It'd be sad to see dragoon degraded to "everyone else's hate dump." They should use jumps for their own hate IMO.
 
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