THF/NIN and THF/WAR

[Osse]

This is only partly beating a dead horse. Notice the title "THF/NIN and THF/WAR." Unlike the other discussions I've seen on this topic, I start by agreeing that there are times when a ninja sub is quite useful. However, I still get friends and LS mates complaining about random pick-up THF's with really sub-par damage output. I'm sure equipment has a something to do with it; but when I ask what the sub job is, the universal response is ninja.

I happen to enjoy playing THF quite a bit, and it irritates me to hear about such poor performance. Having had the opportunity to do some activities and merit parties with some some pretty elite players, I'll begrudgingly admit that THF will never out damage someone like Jamal. However, that does not excuse us from trying to give a maximal effort. A lot of the top line THF gear is R/Ex and takes a large investment of time to get, or it's just expensive. But I'm going to focus on something that everyone can have: a lv 37 warrior sub.

Just for some quick and real numbers, this is a comparison of attack rating with SATA+WS gear equipped.

/NIN: no food/buffs 413, with food (cheap-ass meat mithkabob in all examples) 476

/WAR: no food/buffs 426, with just food 489, with just berserk 532, with berserk + warcry 555, with berserk + food 596 (active 60% of the time), with berserk + warcry + food 619

With no innate job skills or traits to boost our attack rating, THF's are completely dependent upon food, sub job and the potential BRD for attack. As you can see from above, food does not give as much attack bonus as a warrior sub and berserk, therefore it is not a substitute for going /war when shadows are not needed. I'm sure if I used a courel sub or hedgehog pie it would be closer, but still second best. Even then, the extra 13 or so attack just from /war and the extra 106 attack from berserk will stack with +attack food.

So let's look at the pros and cons of each subjob and discuss when each would be appropriate.

/NIN advantages:
Dual wield- +15% (with suppanomimi) additional dagger swings over time. The sub-weapon can give stat bonuses too, but so can a shield.
Shadows- Negate some damage, particularly when pulling. Although it's true that I'm not really worried about dying on a typical pull, I am worried about the healer wasting MP on me.
Can use Accomplice without fear of damage, mostly.
The cheap invisible and now sneak are NOT true advantages, since they are easily replaced with oils and powders.
Able to SA+WS without any real concerns about taking damage from the mob.

/NIN disadvantages
Significantly lower attack rating. It is practically a REQUIREMENT that you use meat dishes if you sub ninja.
Dual wield DOES NOT increase TP gain.

/WAR advantages
Berserk- additional 100+ attack that is active for 3/5 minutes.
Double Attack- +10% additional attacks over time that WILL increase your TP gain. I don't count the Brutal earring +5% because you can still wear that with /nin.
Warcry- additional 20+ attack rating to entire party for 30 seconds.
Defender- kind of "meh", but it has saved my ass a few times.
Shield- additional defense and stat bonuses, plus direct damage reduction on a successful block.
Option of using either meat or sushi.
Less TP given to mob (fewer hits, but more damage/hit). I know subtle blow is gained from /nin, but subtle blow's TP reduction isn't very impressive.

/WAR disadvantages
No damage negation.

So when to use each sub? I think the easiest way to answer that question is to say /war always, unless you honestly require shadows to negate damage. Mainly that need occurs during specific end-game and other non-xp events. I sometimes fight greater colibri with a ninja sub because I will pull hate just from meleeing and a SA (without WS). But to be honest, if I'm careful to first do a TA (generally with WS) onto the NIN/WAR it's not an issue. If I'm the puller, I'll sub ninja for the reasons above. For Mamool, warrior sub all the time. Unless I SA+WS, I'm not going to be pulling hate off of the MNK's, NIN's and/or WAR's. A simple TA+WS allows me to have my warrior sub and avoid tanking. Plus, with hate shifting rapidly in a melee based merit pt, SA+WS can get screwed if the mob turns a new direction, but TA+WS should always work.

That's my 2 cents. Please add or critique.

 

[Dejavu]

You missed something that i believe is quite useful and that is /drk


My general rule is if i am pulling or tanking /nin duh
Kited mob or multiple enemies /war
Stationary single mob /drk

Souleater is nice

However with the recent patch and thfs ability to generate/steal hate we are actually not a terrible option as a cotank now so i may start going to fafnir as /nin using collaboator on the blms every minute.

But for me
Fafnir and aspid /drk
Beh and misc crap /war
Sky sea dynamis etc... /nin

 

[Necrosis]

Dual wield DOES NOT increase TP gain.

Blau on /war gives 4.9 TP/hit, iirc, whereas blau/SK gives 4.5. So, I'll need 21 hits on /war to get 100TP, and 23 on NIN. That's, what, 10% (not even) more hits to 100, and when you take into consideration the fact that you're hitting 20% faster (suppa+/nin)... obviously double attack will even that out, but dual wield does increase TP gain somewhat.

For Mamool, warrior sub all the time.

In any exp situation, if I'm /war, I will die. There are no exceptions. It's too easy to pull hate with zerk and a ridiculous multihit rate, and I would often find myself saving TP out of fear that I'd pull hate and get owned. When you start doing that, /war stops looking so attractive.

It is practically a REQUIREMENT that you use meat dishes if you're a respectable thief.

fixed.

You missed something that i believe is quite useful and that is /drk

Why?

I'll begrudgingly admit that THF will never out damage someone like Jamal.

This attitude is why most THFs blow.

 

[Zethren]

jamal is wack

 

[Zoolander]

You missed something that i believe is quite useful and that is /drk

Souleater is nice

Fafnir and aspid /drk

You don't need souleater to cure binary thf syndrome.

/war = +25% attack 60% of the time, +10% Double Attack, Attack Bonus I
/drk = -10% hp lost every landed hit, dealing half of that into actual damage, up 16.7% of the time (and thats if the WHMs have recovered from cure spaming you during your last souleater spam), and +10 more attack from Attack Bonus II.

Only time I've found /drk to be useful for THFs is when an extra stunner is needed and the THF is mainly just TH whoring anyway. Thats alot of spamming needed for the sole purpose of damage. I can see if it was a DRK with 2000+ HP or a NIN/DRK trying to quickly rise up the hate list, but thats too much effort for minimal gains.


Ontopic, I think Necro brings a solid point. If you are hesitating too often to WS because you might pull hate, or greatly change the way you are exping because of /war, then /nin begins to become much more appealing. The freedom (to an extent anyway) to do whatever you want in the pt is very nice. Monks are decent comparison as well. Sure, in theory, MNK/WAR would own MNK/NIN in dmg. However, as we all know, most MNKs tend to sub NIN in exp to allow them the freedom of doing whatever they want.

THF might not be the DD and hate machine that monk is, but the better they get, the more the need for that defense to enable them to do more offense can become necessary.

I do think though, most THFs are far from that point and /WAR would be a nice and easy way of increasing DMG for THFs that do not yet have all the elite endgame gear at their disposal.

 

[Osse]

you're hitting 20% faster (suppa+/nin)

I looked it up, and either things changed since the last time I looked up DW (about 2-3 years ago) or I just remembered incorrectly. So 15% delay reduction at DW II, which I though was 10%, plus the Suppanomimi is 20%. My mistake.

SE adjusted dual wield to reduce TP gained/hit by the amount of delay reduction (ie, 10% delay reduction leads to 10% less TP/hit). Certain combinations of daggers when dual wielded will slightly fudge this number since it seems that it's not a direct calculation (I'm not sure how the game determines the new TP gain with DW active), but it's not enough to specifically recommend DW as a TP bonus. Particularly when DA is an option. Maybe the Store TP +1 from the Chiv. Chain is throwing you off (I kid, I kid, lol).

As for why so many THF's stink, I'd say it's more due to the fact that so many of them leveled THF just to solo farm and are out there in a SH and AF. Not so much that they have a crappy attitude. They just have no interest in pimping it out regardless of how good it can be.

Doing less damage than a fully merited Ridilberk with all +1 gear is not dishonorable, it's game mechanics. I've never met you, so if you say you can rip hate off of a fully merited Ridilberk, or the pimped out and merited NIN/WAR who is voking every mob and whom as I suggested you would have TA+WS'ed onto, who am I to question you? Sub ninja by all means. But if you are here to stroke your e-peen, allow me to direct you to the Good Times board. Otherwise, please impart some useful knowledge on the people whom this thread is directed at.

 

[Necrosis]

SE adjusted dual wield to reduce TP gained/hit by the amount of delay reduction (ie, 10% delay reduction leads to 10% less TP/hit).

Nope.

As for why so many THF's stink, I'd say it's more due to the fact that so many of them leveled THF just to solo farm and are out there in a SH and AF.

Naw, people are still caught up in the THFs-as-only-THwhores mentality.

I've never met you, so if you say you can rip hate off of a fully merited Ridilberk, or the pimped out and merited NIN/WAR who is voking every mob and whom as I suggested you would have TA+WS'ed onto, who am I to question you?

FYI, TP gain is usually high enough to alternate TAWS and SAWS in meripo. Also, please quit acting like a ridillberk WAR or "that merited NIN/WAR who is voking every mob" (because voke gives a ton of hate, right?) can hold hate on every mob from every WS I ever do.

But if you are here to stroke your e-peen, allow me to direct you to the Good Times board.

Haven't begun this yet, but I am pretty awesome.

 

[Osse]

My main issue it that you are giving the false impression that all these THF's have to do is eat meat dishes and /nin is just fine for everyone. Let me take a guess at your gear.

weapon: Blau/SK, P. Harpe/Blau at times
Ranged: Fire bomblet
Neck: PCC
Earrings: Brutal/Suppa
Rings: Sniper's +1 x2
Head: W. Turban
Waist: Swift belt (although Potent belt and even a speed belt are possible)
Remainder is a combination of Homan and Dusk

WS set up is a combination of Hecatomb and Dragon gear, maybe the Dynamis headpiece (since the N. Head can be hard to get sometimes), Rajas Ring/Thunder Ring and some +attack/Acc gear.

This just in: seen it before. It's all top-tier gear and does well. I've yet to see a THF tanking in it, other than just after a SA+DE, and not always after that. You can get 100 TP in 45 seconds or so (I'll bite on even 30 seconds, what the hell I'm a trusting guy). But the mobs in merit pt's die in less time than that, so just SA+DE when the mob's at 20-30% life. Assuming someone doesn't turn the mob and ruin your SA "angle of attack". You'll be holding TP for all of 3-5 seconds. Besides, your a thief with A- evasion and Evasion Bonus IV. I've lasted longer as thf/war with hate on me than some WAR/NIN's with shadows.

But my point is that the majority of THF's do not have that stuff. Most THF's have the options of /war and work to control hate, or go /nin and never have to worry about it Therefore, go /war when appropriate. I just wanted some additional input from the web community. You have given your opinion, and I thank you for it.

 

[Stouter]

I looked it up, and either things changed since the last time I looked up DW (about 2-3 years ago) or I just remembered incorrectly. So 15% delay reduction at DW II, which I though was 10%, plus the Suppanomimi is 20%. My mistake.

SE adjusted dual wield to reduce TP gained/hit by the amount of delay reduction (ie, 10% delay reduction leads to 10% less TP/hit). Certain combinations of daggers when dual wielded will slightly fudge this number since it seems that it's not a direct calculation (I'm not sure how the game determines the new TP gain with DW active), but it's not enough to specifically recommend DW as a TP bonus.

First off, -20% off your delay means 25% more swings.

Second, below 180 delay (360 combined delay with DW) you get a large boost to TP/hit. This is the delay after taking off that 20% for DW.

 

[Necrosis]

stuff

I can see you're not really getting it, but okay. and also, don't act like you're going to be some magical evasion machine when the monster turns to you and you're in full DD gear.

 

[Mishaela]

Necro's pretty much right though, a THF who knows what they're doing can very easily pull out 4-digit numbers on a fairly consistent basis.

I personally don't see the point of THF subbing NIN before 60. If you learn to properly at certain camps and the party pays attention, you typically won't get hit on the way to camp. Since you don't have Assassin yet you should be stacking SA with TA on WS (or at the very least SA WSing when you know it'll kill/near-kill the mob) so you shouldn't ever be pulling hate long enough to be a huge issue anyways.

THF/WAR is much like MNK/WAR is the case that they can easily get themselves killed with a powerful WS, but they also have the option of putting the hate on someone else. Before fights become highly fast-paced they typically have plenty of time to set up a SA or SATA at the proper time and let it loose without worry of getting wailed on, and thus I don't see subbing NIN at that time as remotely worth it.

It makes me so very sad when THFs think that ~400 damage Viper Bites on Hornflies is actually a good WS.



Boiling down to a simple opinionated answer: If there's designated tanks, /WAR or possibly if one or two situations perhaps /SAM. If it's a cannon, /NIN.

 

[Osse]

First off, -20% off your delay means 25% more swings.

Second, below 180 delay (360 combined delay with DW) you get a large boost to TP/hit. This is the delay after taking off that 20% for DW.

I farm on THF/NIN commonly, I'll typically use a Rajas ring since I don't need any more Acc for TW-DC mobs. My combined delay is 374, which would be 300 after the DW reduction. With the Rajas on, I get about 9.2 TP for both hits combined versus 4.9 TP for a single hit of my Blau with /WAR and no Rajas. If my math is right, that means I'd get about 8.8 TP for 2 hits with DW without Rajas. Therefore, 0.029 TP per unit of delay for DW and 0.028 TP per unit of delay without DW and well within a decent margin of error of just going by memory. Perhaps I misunderstand, but that doesn't seem like a bonus. It seems like it's doing what SE claimed it would, a smooth transition of TP with delay reduction.

Regardless, getting 100 TP 2, 3 or even 10 seconds faster doesn't matter if you turn around and do SA+DE for 300 damage (and I've seen some people do even worse than that I'm afraid). Some more attack rating will help those numbers.

 

[Necrosis]

If my math is right, that means I'd get about 8.8 TP for 2 hits with DW without Rajas.

With those daggers? Would be ~9.4-9.5 going off memory.

 

[Stouter]

I farm on THF/NIN commonly, I'll typically use a Rajas ring since I don't need any more Acc for TW-DC mobs. My combined delay is 374, which would be 300 after the DW reduction. With the Rajas on, I get about 9.2 TP for both hits combined versus 4.9 TP for a single hit of my Blau with /WAR and no Rajas. If my math is right, that means I'd get about 8.8 TP for 2 hits with DW without Rajas. Therefore, 0.029 TP per unit of delay for DW and 0.028 TP per unit of delay without DW and well within a decent margin of error of just going by memory. Perhaps I misunderstand, but that doesn't seem like a bonus. It seems like it's doing what SE claimed it would, a smooth transition of TP with delay reduction.

Regardless, getting 100 TP 2, 3 or even 10 seconds faster doesn't matter if you turn around and do SA+DE for 300 damage (and I've seen some people do even worse than that I'm afraid). Some more attack rating will help those numbers.

You should be getting 9.4 if your combined delay is 374 and you have DW2 and Suppa on. 9.4 / 300 * 60 = 1.88 TP/sec, 4.9 / 178 * 60 = 1.65 TP/sec, that's roughly 14% more TP.

If your SA DE is only doing 300, your subjob is not the issue.

 

[Euphacent]

Listen to Necro, he's a pimp thf.

 

[Tagrineth]

Listen to Necro, he's the boogeyman.

Fixed it for you ^^

 

[Phraust]

Thf/War Is just annoying to me... I never got into it.

Now as far as thief Goes, I've said some stupid shit based on misinformation, Most notably my misunderstanding of how Perdu class weapons function. But that aside, in my opinion the following:

Thf/Nin:
Versatile and worry Free.
Total Stats/Bonuses on Thf/Nin:

X's Knife/Blau Dolch:

TP:
Attack: 370
Accuracy: Base +40
Str: 78
Dex: 83
Haste: 14%
Dual Wield II + Suppanomimi: Weapon delay:303 per 2 hits.
Double Attack: + 5%
Triple Attack: Base(+Merit 5%) +3%
Store TP: 13
All Critical Hits: +10% Damage from floor.

WS:
Attack: 414
Accuracy: Base +6
Str: 107
Dex: 122
Haste: -30%
Dual Weild II
Double Attack: +5%
Triple Attack Base(+Merit 5%)
Store TP: 5
All Critical Hits +10% Damage from floor.

Attack Speed (Base):
10 min: 240 Swings,
18% TA(base 10% + 5% Merits + Homam): +86 Hits.
5% DA After TA: +10 Hits.
Total: 336 Hits.
Haste: 383 Hits.

60 min: 1,440 Swings
TA: 512 Hits
DA: 60 Hits
Total: 2012 Hits
Haste: 2,293 Hits

TP:
Base 4.7
Store TP: 13
Mod Base: 5.3
10 min: 2,029 TP
60 min: 12,152 TP

WS:
10 min: 20
60 min: 121

=========================================WaR=============================

X's Knife:

TP:
Attack: 366
Accuracy: Base +40
Str: 85
Dex: 82
Haste: 14%
Double Attack: + 20%
Triple Attack: Base(+Merit 5%) +3%
Store TP: 13
All Critical Hits: +10% Damage from floor.

WS:
Attack: 412
Accuracy: Base +6
Str: 114
Dex: 121
Haste: -30%
Double Attack: +20%
Triple Attack Base(+Merit 5%)
Store TP: 5
All Critical Hits +10% Damage from floor.

Attack Speed (Base):
10 min: 179 Swings,
18% TA: +52 Hits.
20% DA: +28 Hits.
Total: 259 Hits.
Haste: 295 Hits.

60 min: 1074 Swings
TA: 312 Hits
DA: 168 Hits
Total: 1,554 Hits
Haste: 1,770 Hits

TP:
Base 5.5
Store TP: 13
Mod Base: 6.2
10 min: 1,835 TP
60 min: 10,974 TP

WS:
10 min: 18
60 min: 109

Now from a tactical standpoint, Berserk is nice, but, it has a couple drawbacks:
AoE's will hurt you even more.
If you pull hate and get hit you will take more Damage.
The diminishing returns on Attack are steep especially as you reach the cap, though, mind you reaching the cap on thief is supremely difficult lol...

Benefits:
Assuming the following: Adding Berserk adds 25% attack for 60% of the time.

Maximum benefit: 15% increase in total damage on both regular hits and weaponskills.

Subbing Ninja offers roughly 29% more hits, and 11% more weaponskills, but at 85% of the potency of a Thf/War.

If you do 40% of your damage on melee to 60% Weaponskill (Pretty typical for Thief/Ninja) then Thf/War kinda catches the edge:

Then a Thf/War would be losing on the DoT end but getting an edge in Weaponskill Damage. Getting a 15% increase on 60% of your damage should give you a substantial boost by comparison.

At this time I do not have enough numbers to compare the two. All I have currently is a shit ton of Samurai parses and some Duo stuff on thief. Nothing that would give good examples of the diffferences, unfortunately.

I did some simulated math on various mixes of melee to WS ratios and assumed Melee damage/hit and WS numbers, got some weierd results... SO nothign I could even use as an example... Point was They are really almost equal in the end. War takes more damage where nin creates more TP even, and in the end the load on Mages is exactly the same... All and all it really comes down to play style. Period.

 

[Knightblade]

This should get moved to End Game Discussion, since all the mathematics and end game point-of-views are coming in, although, I don't really care.

 

[Tagrineth]

Phraust did you account for the 10% double attack on Warrior too?

 

[Knightblade]

Phraust did you account for the 10% double attack on Warrior too?

Thf/Nin:
Double Attack: + 5%

=========================================WaR=============================

Double Attack: + 20%

Although, I am wondering where the 15% extra came from.

/nin, you have 5% from brutal.
/war, you have 15% from brutal and double attack trait.

What is the origin of the extra 5%?