Tiny Gripe 2.0

phishn said:
Agreed

"With Hasso now, a well equipped sam can pull off sam/nin and pull just as much weight as a similarly equipped and merited nin/war, mnk/nin or war/nin."

+10 str, +10 acc, +10% attack speed increase = Hasso at level 75. Why did SE give SAM this ability? To give SAM a role in TP Cannon style parties. SAM's role got lost once Manaburn's, and TP Cannons came about. SAM's were meant to be damage enablers, skillchaining frequently for the Magic Bursts.
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Actually, I believe SE gave SAM hasso and seigan to make it a more attractive subjob; rather than everyone just subs nin for everything; otherwise they could have made them level 38+ since SAM's last JA was at level 30. Hasso is stronger on SAM main as you level it, true, but a lot of JA's are stronger on the main job than with a sub.
 
Soujiro said:
I'm sure there are drg's that could pull it off out there, i've never merited with any though.
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Wanna merit?
 
Bajaratt said:
Actually, I believe SE gave SAM hasso and seigan to make it a more attractive subjob; rather than everyone just subs nin for everything; otherwise they could have made them level 38+ since SAM's last JA was at level 30. Hasso is stronger on SAM main as you level it, true, but a lot of JA's are stronger on the main job than with a sub.
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Good point. This ability helps all jobs who use two handed weapons, SAM DRK DRG.
 
Hey Aud let's merit sometime!
 
Eleibfrid said:
Hey Aud let's merit sometime!
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Alright! Lets plan it now so we don't have to LFP!!! =P
 
Hey that's cheating! We know you guys actually have good gear!
JK. have fun.
 
Nolan said:
I was in a cannon with drg, drk, sam, nin, rdm, whm
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That isn't a cannon idiot, read the OP. You can have a good party without giving it the title "cannon", i've been in plenty of good non-cannon parties that take down mobs fast, doesn't make them cannons.
 
The issue I have here is what people are saying now:

"If you take 'Dragoon X' and put them in 'Merit Party Z' they will out perform 'War/Mnk/Nin Y'."

While that may be true, you are speaking of 'Dragoon X' in thier Maximum potential, and not speaking of 'War/Mnk/Nin Y' in thier full potential.

It doesn't matter if 'Dragoon X' is at thier peak. In thier peak, they will at best parse on par with a "Good" War/Mnk/Nin, not an "Awesome", "Pimped Out", "Skilled", "etc..." War/Mnk/Nin.

You need to compare Apples to Apples and Oranges to Oranges.

If you are going to say: "A really pimped out job XXX/XXX can easily out perform a War/Mnk/Nin." You really need to say the following to see the flaw in your arguement: "A really pimped out job XXX/XXX can easily out perform a really pimped out War/Mnk/Nin." Which is a false statement.

You wanna say: "I made 20k/hr in a party as my Sam/Nin." then you gotta ask, what would an equally pimped out War/Nin do?

Keep in mind I was on the other side of the arguement for a LONG time. At this point in my FFXI career, I am eating a lot of crow, and admitting I am wrong. You probably wont see the difference between meriting on your Drg vs. meriting on a War until you do it. It's an entirely different dynamic.

That being said, the actual post is not about that, it's about what people say when they are inviting you, or what they say during/after a party. It people calling a standard pickup "Merit Party" and calling it a "Cannon Party" when it's not.
If you wanna merit on your XXX/XXX fine, but when you send an invite to somone, don't get thier hopes up by calling your party a Cannon, when its not.

I think somone said it just above this post:

"Most of you arguing this have probably never even been in a real 'Cannon'."

This in more true than you think; if you were in a party, as a melee, on any job other than the High Output DD class jobs listed in the original post, you weren't in a Cannon.
 
meeze said:
That isn't a cannon idiot, read the OP. You can have a good party without giving it the title "cannon", i've been in plenty of good non-cannon parties that take down mobs fast, doesn't make them cannons.
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The OP only defines cannon as haveing 3-4 high output DD, healer and enhancer. Now assuming that taking a mob out very quickly (on par w/ mnk, war and nin as the OP mentions and as are considered in the minds of most "the" high output DDs) using 3-4 melee jobs, healer and enhancer it would seem that it meets the definiton of a cannon. Where otherwise a Pld, Rng, Thf, Blm, Brd and a Whm would not be considered a cannon, because that is going to focus more on straight tanking, skillchains, very controlled hate management and very determined party role.

EDIT: Posting while Phraust posted, so clarification they provided may point to a different meaning. But nonetheless the fact clarification was needed does not make my response to meeze not pertinent.
 
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I know what a "real cannon" is. I've been in plenty. The thing is, I don't deal with "pickup cannons". If I'm seeking pt, I'm automatically telling myself that I'll be getting subpar xp. If I want to cannon, I send tells to my friends. This is the only way you're going to get 20k+ xp/hr consistantly. Otherwise, you might as well pretend your random invite is from Bob C. Nubsauce and just take what you get. You're always welcome to ask what jobs are in the pt before you join, so if you join a "cannon pt" that doesn't fit your standards, the blame's all on you.
 
sorry but they are some very blind to facts drg/sam's if they think they are going to parse anywhere near a good mnk/war ; ;
 
"You wanna say: "I made 20k/hr in a party as my Sam/Nin." then you gotta ask, what would an equally pimped out War/Nin do?"

In theory, more, in reality, not much more. We were cleaning out the mobs and lack of mobs were breaking the chains.
 
Mattaru said:
The OP only defines cannon as haveing 3-4 high output DD, healer and enhancer. Now assuming that taking a mob out very quickly (on par w/ mnk, war and nin as the OP mentions and as are considered in the minds of most "the" high output DDs) using 3-4 melee jobs, healer and enhancer it would seem that it meets the definiton of a cannon. Where otherwise a Pld, Rng, Thf, Blm, Brd and a Whm would not be considered a cannon, because that is going to focus more on straight tanking, skillchains, very controlled hate management and very determined party role.
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While in spirit your misquoting me is true, but by high output I mean the 'A' Class DD set. Not any ol' melee. "High Output" is refering to a job that consistanly produces high damage while being a low drain on resources. Just because a Drk can use SE+LR+WS, and produce big numbers; doesn't mean they can do it consistanly, or free of liability.

One of the key differences between a Cannon and a Merit Party is that you pick jobs that even if they weren't the best at thier jobs would produce at least consistant results. I.E. you get 100 monks the average damage output on 'em wouldn't vary too greatly. You get 100 thieves you will have an extremely steep bell curve. Yes, there are average, good, and even awesome thieves, there is more room for error, the job requires too much technical mastery and a specific dynamic to operate at full potential. Wars, Ninjas, and Monks just smash shit. Any of the "Cannon Jobs" could almost be played on 3 macros. They are mindless Killing machines, its thier simpplicity that make them so efficient. You don't need as much skill to be good.
 
Making a different reply to speak directly to Phraust.

I am assuming that when you are saying you are catching flack now for things you once believed you are talking about what is/used to be your stance on thf in a merit party (edit: cannon).

Anyways, what is the point of playing semantics on this issue in the first place. The assumption seems to be that in a cannon party your exp is going to be good and that setup is going to maximize your efficiency. But, to make this assumption, it relies on the fact that everyone in that party are going to be at their maximum capability to put out damage and/or reach highest exp/hour.

Yet, as is coming up as an issue the high output DD jobs you mention are sometimes played by people who are not capable of meeting that standard so why should we assume that getting into a "cannon" party is going to actually be good instead of a DD heavy party where the players are better?

Therefore, confusion is created because is a cannon party a party that is plowing through mobs in a DD heavy setup like or similarly to what is percieved of a mnk/war/war/nin/brd/whm pt, or is it just a characteristic of actually being that setup. If that is then the distinction and it becomes merely a case of higher exp per hour than another, then is that your real gripe or complaint?

Basically, if we can agree that not every cannon party as you classify it via job type will do as much exp/hr as a similar DD heavy setup (not even asking consistantly, just that it is possible one can do better), based on the quality of player than is your actual gripe that you are getting invites to pts that say they are going to do maximum or near that exp/hr, but are not?

You may simply respond why are you comparing apples to oranges again? Because I understand hypothetically speaking your cannon definition will do more exp/hour when maxed than another setup when maxed, but your complaint isn't based off of some hypothetical invite to a party you are getting, and we are not discussing why you are annoyed by a hypotheitcal situation (which would be absurd).

To me, after deconstructing what you are saying and building it back up it is saying: "I am tired of people telling me I am getting invited to and exp party that is going to use the most efficient use of my time, but instead I am actually getting invites to parties that are not the most efficient use of my time." Which is applicable to much more than cannon/not cannon.

If I am misinterpreting what you are saying, correct me. I am not making this assesment out of my experience in merit parties, because I'm a bst, my merit parties are me and a Korrigan. I am making this assesment out of what ONLY YOU are relating to me as your experience in meriting. So please don't play that card.

EDIT: Some grammar and other stuff after reading your most recent post above.
 
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I like you Mattaru.

I think what I am saying might be more of a "Flow" thing. When I am the War in a DD heavy party vs. a Cannon, I tend to be the tank. In a Cannon Party, Everyones the Tank, and Hate is shared. Wars, Monks, and Nins have roughly the same Damage output to each other, and that output happens to be towards the cap of Dmg/Time. Other jobs can do damage, but they make the party flow less um... Cannon like. Yes, 4 Sams, a Brd, and a Whm can do a 'Cannon like party' but its not a Cannon. Semantics? maybe. I just can't think of a better way to explain it. Its like trying to explain to a hard-core bible-thumping Christian the difference between misisonary style and just plain dirty animalistic fucking, its just not going to make sense until you put down your beliefs an get to business.

On your first comment:

Yeah, as a thief, I thought I was doing awesome in merit parties. I was pulling out good numbers, but I didnt' realize how much I was upsetting the flow of the party until i partied with a Thieves on my war. The thief destroyed the flow of damage, and made it hard to bounce hate around. Melees going Ni to Ni means less time wasted casting, and ups DoT, when you got a melee casting Ichi to survive, you are gimping that melee.

So in short, its a flow thing more than anything. I don't like bumbling around the poon anymore, I like to fuck.
 
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Ok, that is what I am after, and what I think should clear up some of the misconceptions of what you are saying really. Flow is always key for me, what gives me the most decrease in exping is having to deal with issues in the environment or camp I am working in that disrupts the flow of a chain I have going and the pets I'm charming (which I think was a big issue for alot BSTs post mpk patch, because the flow inherent in zoo fighting was gone, and another way had to be found). And why for everything I merit on offense I try to balance with defense, so I don't have to worry about a mob turning and having to cast or not intimidating it etc.
 
Rappa said:
loldrk ready to outparse mediocre wars, lfp, drgs preferred
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brd plz
 
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