UR DOIN IT RONG

If your tank spams cure 3-4 on the DD's instead of properly tanking as PLD/RDM, and insists that he/she knows how to tank PLD/RDM then yes a removal might be necessary. Honestly, PLD/RDM hate builds is similar to PLD/NIN in that it takes a few minutes to accumulate hate... whereas PLD/WAR is more spike hate.

Stuff there, indeed it takes a couple of minutes of spell casting to get hate, same as /NIN. Nothing new under the sun. But maybe, I say maybe, If I'm spamming cures right out of the gate at the beginning of the fight, somebody probably needs to either a) die, b) realize hes making an ass of himself when hes gonna die, c) receive a /tell from me to remove his WS cruise control for a few and let me do my job when hes gonna die d) die. If you work with me, I'll work with you. If you work for flying numbers, enjoy slapping walls in campaign. Easy enough.
 
Ok, I concede... I'm dumb. I apparently misread the post I quoted. In your round-about, backwards way. You do seem to understand the point. I still have no idea why you included the dysfunctional PLD/RDM in your example, but I get what you are saying now.

Heh... I love the no-edit feature of the forum. Post too fast, and make an ass of yourself. Go me! :P

Um, I was posting in this thread well before you even read it. So if you read the entire thread, you would see what the original argument between shady, myself and raes was about.

Which was the original reasoning behind my argument... If you read it.
 
Um, I was posting in this thread well before you even read it. So if you read the entire thread, you would see what the original argument between shady, myself and raes was about.

Which was the original reasoning behind my argument... If you read it.

I did in fact read the entire thread before I posted (I always do). I had been reading it from the beginning, and saw your posts as you were making them.

Back on page 1, Shady made a post that showed he clearly didn't understand how PLD/RDM worked. You and others jumped all over that, and told him why he was wrong. So while he does have PLD leveled, he obviously has no experiance with PLD/RDM.

By page 3, that topic was pretty much dropped. On page 7, Shady made the "SAM's wearing Hachiman equipment" comment. I chimed in on page 11 during the "let dumb people die" portion of the thread.

On page 12:
People who assume all Hachiman gear is automatically bad regardless of the situation, and aren't intentionally being ironic.
Followed by:
I'd love to hear any situation you have in mind
(And because this was the same person that made the fatal mistake of showing his lack of knowledge of PLD/RDM, all opinions and comments from him instantly become troll-fodder.)

I then asked about gearing SAM, Shady responded with a detailed and seemingly accurate post that basically agreed with what you were saying (that this IS in fact a situation where you needed to use it), and yet you still felt the need to piss all over his help because of a previous comment that he made indicating a lack of knowledge of PLD/RDM.

My response was that his lack of knowledge of PLD/RDM does not invalidate his information on gearing of SAM. A lack of knowledge of one thing does not indicate a lack of knowledge of all things.

Basically, you were acting like an ass, and I called you out on it.

It had nothing to do with your original argument. Never once did I attempt to indicate that Shady would make a good PLD/RDM, and I wasn't defending him for that.

While I may have misinterpreted that last post of yours, reading your shit does still make my brain cells scream in pain as they explode from the dumb.
 
I did in fact read the entire thread before I posted (I always do). I had been reading it from the beginning, and saw your posts as you were making them.

Back on page 1, Shady made a post that showed he clearly didn't understand how PLD/RDM worked. You and others jumped all over that, and told him why he was wrong. So while he does have PLD leveled, he obviously has no experiance with PLD/RDM.

By page 3, that topic was pretty much dropped. On page 7, Shady made the "SAM's wearing Hachiman equipment" comment. I chimed in on page 11 during the "let dumb people die" portion of the thread.

On page 12:
Followed by:
(And because this was the same person that made the fatal mistake of showing his lack of knowledge of PLD/RDM, all opinions and comments from him instantly become troll-fodder.)

I then asked about gearing SAM, Shady responded with a detailed and seemingly accurate post that basically agreed with what you were saying (that this IS in fact a situation where you needed to use it), and yet you still felt the need to piss all over his help because of a previous comment that he made indicating a lack of knowledge of PLD/RDM.

My response was that his lack of knowledge of PLD/RDM does not invalidate his information on gearing of SAM. A lack of knowledge of one thing does not indicate a lack of knowledge of all things.

Basically, you were acting like an ass, and I called you out on it.

It had nothing to do with your original argument. Never once did I attempt to indicate that Shady would make a good PLD/RDM, and I wasn't defending him for that.

While I may have misinterpreted that last post of yours, reading your shit does still make my brain cells scream in pain as they explode from the dumb.

First I still fail to see how this makes me a "Troll" of your posts. In all respect(using the term losely), if this person does not know how to properly use one job yet spouts incorrect bullcrap on the same job to others... more than likely he will show ignorance towards other jobs. As he already stated, which you quoted, he did not see a need for hachiman gear (until someone corrected him). I was not acting like an ass, just stating the obvious that no one commented on.

I did not say anything towards you in any part of this thread in "negative" connotation till you spouted shit that wasn't even necessary. You tell me that I am trolling you? I think the shoe is on the wrong foot there dude.

I had a disagreement with you in dynamis, because I feel that one should be labeled as a dynamis zone jacker.... if they steal other's zones.... regardless of if they are next in line or not.

You let that carryover into this thread, not my fault... yours.
 
As he already stated, which you quoted, he did not see a need for hachiman gear (until someone corrected him).

Not exactly, I asked him to explain a situation where someone would need more than the hands and he did. You come off saying "you're wrong" when it wasn't a right or wrong discussion. As for your other point, saying I don't know how to properly use the job - I argued against a couple specific spells as worthless. That being said, paladin has a wide array of job abilities as well as other spells besides sleep, blind and bind to gain hate. None of those are necessary to keep enmity. They may help, I never said they wouldn't, however in my experience they've never been necessary to keep hate. Maybe that makes me a better tank than you. And then making the argument I don't know how to play one job therefore I don't know how to play the game well that's just idiotic considering how many jobs there are in FFXI. So yea, you come off like a troll dude, get over it.
 
Not exactly, I asked him to explain a situation where someone would need more than the hands and he did. You come off saying "you're wrong" when it wasn't a right or wrong discussion. As for your other point, saying I don't know how to properly use the job - I argued against a couple specific spells as worthless. That being said, paladin has a wide array of job abilities as well as other spells besides sleep, blind and bind to gain hate. None of those are necessary to keep enmity. They may help, I never said they wouldn't, however in my experience they've never been necessary to keep hate. Maybe that makes me a better tank than you. And then making the argument I don't know how to play one job therefore I don't know how to play the game well that's just idiotic considering how many jobs there are in FFXI. So yea, you come off like a troll dude, get over it.

Shield Bash and Sentinel are on 5 minute timers, and Flash is on a 45 second timer (minus however many seconds from haste gear). This leaves an awful lot of time for just swingin' the ol' sword or casting spells.

Let's have a quick comparison of of MP Cost vs Enmity Generated for cures and the spells available from /RDM. (CE is Cumulative Enmity, which is only removed by High/Super Jumps, taking damage, losing Utsusemi shadows, and being the target of an enfeebling magic spell. VE is Volatile Enmity, which decays at a rate of 60 CE per second.)

First, Cure III and Cure IV. We'll assume that the target of the cure is able to be healed for the full value of the cure. Cure enmity is directly related to the amount of HP restored by the spell. Specific information can be found here.

Cure III costs 46 MP, and restores something in the neighborhood of 190 HP, which generates 138 CE and 828 VE, or 3CE/18VE per MP.
Cure IV costs 88 MP, and restores around 385 HP, generating 279 CE and 1678 VE, or 3CE/19VE per MP.

For /RDM: (Generation of CE/VE is constant for non-damaging, enfeebling-type spells, regardless of whether they land.)

Blind costs 5 MP, and generates a 1 CE and 640 VE, or .2CE/128VE per MP.
Bind costs 8 MP, and generates a 1 CE and 640 VE, or .125CE/80VE per MP.
Sleep costs 19 MP, and generates 320 CE and 320 VE, or 16CE/16VE per MP.
Dispel costs 25 MP, and generates 320 CE and 320 VE, or 12CE/12VE per MP.

Summary:

Cures give low to fair CE and nice VE, but are a substantial hit to MP. They have the added benefit of taking some of the enmity load away from a mage who might otherwise choose to cure the target. If you're beaten to the punch, however, the enmity gain may be reduced or nullified.

/RDM spells give lower VE per cast, but provide a much more MP-efficient way of generating CE/VE, and are a guaranteed enmity gain whenever casting is completed.

Cures can be a very effective way of generating enmity, but require lots of damage being taken by the party/alliance, and high amounts of refresh. /RDM's enmity tools become much more handy as damage taken by the group is reduced, and they don't require as much MP to be used.

TL;DR: If your most powerful hate tools are cures, someone in your group is probably fucking up.
 
Not exactly, I asked him to explain a situation where someone would need more than the hands and he did. You come off saying "you're wrong" when it wasn't a right or wrong discussion. As for your other point, saying I don't know how to properly use the job - I argued against a couple specific spells as worthless. That being said, paladin has a wide array of job abilities as well as other spells besides sleep, blind and bind to gain hate. None of those are necessary to keep enmity. They may help, I never said they wouldn't, however in my experience they've never been necessary to keep hate. Maybe that makes me a better tank than you. And then making the argument I don't know how to play one job therefore I don't know how to play the game well that's just idiotic considering how many jobs there are in FFXI. So yea, you come off like a troll dude, get over it.

Personally, I always bring ninja tools with me on /NIN to get the extra hate out of them. Granted, if I refer to Nyo's guide, it's nowhere near the CE/VE from /RDM but it still gives me an edge to keep solid control of the flow of the fight. The other advantage I can see out of it it's the 0MP cost of tools versus the 46/88mp cost of a cure. In my book, I prefer using a single tool instead of running out of MP. I also like to 16 gear swap each actions I undertake for a better control of enmity and haste either if I'm on /WAR, /NIN or /RDM. I guess it's a question of taste and tactics. I feel more confident and effective when I consume less MP for trivial matters in a long fight. That and the RDM/BRD can see it coming when I'm starting to run out of MP and act accordingly.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think using Cures as a tool is a bad thing but it should not be considered as your main way to get hate either. All things said, I'm not the best PLD around but I learned to play efficiently and to care for those who support me in a fight. I also learned to play with everything I had at my disposal. Ask anybody who I tanked with and they will confirm what I just said.
 
Betcha 20 gil they did reduce it.

Last time they made a announcement about enm being adjusted for spells, it was the Marzuka spells..Made a Ezhno cry since he couldn't tank on bard after that (He used to <3 to do that!).
 
I don't wanna say that PLD/RDM is out of the question for building up hate over time but,
it could mean that a) tanking as pld/rdm now will take more concentration and more spell spamming or
b) pld/rdm could possibly be out of the question on keeping up with enmity

I've retired pld a long time ago so I'm not one to make bold statements when I haven't even tried pld/rdm in the first place.
Jyak, Divinius, Nyo
what do you guys think?
 
I don't wanna say that PLD/RDM is out of the question for building up hate over time but,
it could mean that a) tanking as pld/rdm now will take more concentration and more spell spamming or
b) pld/rdm could possibly be out of the question on keeping up with enmity

I've retired pld a long time ago so I'm not one to make bold statements when I haven't even tried pld/rdm in the first place.
Jyak, Divinius, Nyo
what do you guys think?

Well one of two things could happen, they could increase the amount of hate produced by each spell... which would make spamming AOE dispel from RDM/SCH... or AOE Sleep etc etc.

Or they could decrease hate which would make tanking hard as PLD/RDM.

Although since PLD is getting its own natural phalanx, I forsee PLD/RDM going out the window anyways.
 
Yeah, tanking with RDM or DRK subs took a serious hit. They're all 1 CE, 300 VE now.
 
I'm still kinda iffy on if I should level rdm to 49 for blu.
In all honesty I don't really want to haha

I still got dnc and war to take to 49 and i wanna take care of that first then hop on sam and blu to get to 80
 
Yeah, tanking with RDM or DRK subs took a serious hit. They're all 1 CE, 300 VE now.
NIN/DRK will be more difficult but not impossible.... PLD/RDM is not a viable combo anymore because of the hit it took..
 
Basically, aye. NIN/DRK is pretty reliant on Stun from the DRK sub now, and PLD/RDM is basically dead except for a few fights where said PLD isn't going to be taking melee hits in particular (JOL).

With Phalanx on the plate, PLD/WAR is slightly more viable, of course, along with reductions in enmity loss for PLD.
 
Basically, aye. NIN/DRK is pretty reliant on Stun from the DRK sub now, and PLD/RDM is basically dead except for a few fights where said PLD isn't going to be taking melee hits in particular (JOL).

With Phalanx on the plate, PLD/WAR is slightly more viable, of course, along with reductions in enmity loss for PLD.

I would think /RDM would still be dead for JOL. The inability to build any useful amount of CE kind of outweighs the MDB+10 you get from /RDM, which after this update is all you'd get from this sub. PLD/DRK might be the new way to do JOL now, you get access to stun (same enmity, recast, and casting time as flash) and aspir which is CE only.

With the 90 cap you would also get absorb-tp which is the same enmity as the old value for sleep, but /BLU might be a better alternative since you can have access to a larger number of 320 CE spells, though a bit more mp intensive.

NIN/DRK, while heavily reliant on stun, still took a big enough hit to really not be worth it at this point. CE building was bad enough to begin with, but still viable with a sleep/aspir/stun rotation. Now, all we have is aspir and stun which would have to be a fairly long fight to get close enough to cap without SATAs. The RDM/NIN nerf is upsetting because I barely even got to use it after getting my RDM to a very comfortable level.

Right now I'm praying aisha: ichi is 480 CE so that Gekko tanking doesn't become my only option now. I really don't care to finish PLD....
 
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