Utsusemi nerf: Yay or nay?

[TiyaKelth]

Mnk hp boost is superb for making a War the ideal meat shield, not to mention you even get a dodge boost that helps as well.

What's better... having more hp to lose, or not getting hit?

 

[OniTatsujin]

Oi...

My thoughts:

SE should give Ninja's a job ability that has help taking away hate, IF they nerf Utsusemi, i've come up with one...

Stealth Dash- Cooldown: 1 Minute
When used it quickly dashes your character to the back of an enemy and also loses all hate that the user has, can only be used when in battle mode.

It goes along with Ninja well, and also with something that takes hate away, they can spam ninjutsu, shurikens, etc. and when the mob turns to them, they have utsusemi to take no damage until they use Stealth Dash and the mob turns back to the PLD or WAR.

Also, WAR/NIN wouldn't be useless...all SE needs to do is raise the cooldown of Utsusemi..WAR's can have the DEF/VIT/HP to stay alive, and use Utsusemi when possible to lower the damage and MP use of WHM.

A ninja, in my own opinion, was made to help balance a party. Let's say the party is mage heavy, hey well, now there is a melee..Let's say the party is melee heavy, hey, a job that can cast magic...

Ok, yeah, a Ninja can't dish out insane damage like a RNG, but can a RNG help enfeeble the mob with magic or anything? No.

Ok, yeah, a Ninja can't use a lot of magic and enfeeble like a god like a RDM, but can a RDM equip two weapons and dish out pretty good damage(if you equip Att+/STR gear instead of EVA/AGI gear)? No.

Also, I would like to add, that if any big mistake(bad pull, etc) a Ninja can make it out of the trouble, like THF...

A ninja can deal damage, enfeeble, and also tank when the main tank is low, also they can pull very good(Tonko, Utsusemi, Shuriken's fast delay, also the AF boots add a movement speed boost)

They can do all the "Odd jobs" of a party...

That is just my opinion on Ninja

 

[Pascal]

War/Mnk is a great tank.

MNK/WAR, RDM/WAR, RDM/NIN can all tank, that doesn't mean they should. The reason WAR/MNK is not the most effective tank is because it gets hit. With a Paladin, when they get hit they lose hate points, but they are then able to cure them selves and generate more hate than what they lost. With WAR/MNK or even MNK/WAR even in the best DEF gear they are still getting hit and losing hate points. That means there damage output then has to make up not only for the hate they are losing by getting hit, but also has to keep up with the hate everyone else is generating, including the mage who is having to cure him, which is generating a lot of hate.

Tanking is not about just standing there taking Hits. It’s all about maintaining your hate level above everyone else.

 

[Chouzan]

Mnk hp boost is superb for making a War the ideal meat shield, not to mention you even get a dodge boost that helps as well.

What's better... having more hp to lose, or not getting hit?

Please don't start this BS...

All three jobs are capable of tanking well, they just do it differently. And, as always, it is the person at the controls that makes the job, not the other way around.

P.S. Anyone that says that war's are crappy tanks has not partied with a good, solid, career war.

 

[TiyaKelth]

War's are infact great tanks, I agree... especially (although not limited to,) war/nin's.

 

[Kipsy]

I'm quite disappointed in you Rappa. I hope you don't feel that I should rather be subbing /Nin as my warrior, when I do perfectly fine as a WAR/MNK tank in the static :?

No, you do fine in the static. I didn't want to go through all the effort of saying "Well, a WAR can still tank without blinking, but since that's what 90% of the people want them to do, that just leaves PLD". If I didn't think you were doing fine, I would've said something by now. It's my ass on the line.

*Chews on Rappa happily*

I know I do a damn good job. Anyone who thinks differently can eat my socks.

 

[Nevil]

Personally I don't like NIN tanks because, unless they spend an insane amount of money on tools (on top of the Utsusemi tool) and shurikens, they can't hold hate well. Well I'll still try to lvl my NIN with either RNG or THF sub. Hopefully I can change people's mind and explore uncharted territory all at the same time.

 

[TiyaKelth]

Personally I don't like NIN tanks because, I can't afford to play them in that role, which is the role best suited to them. Well I'll still try to lvl my NIN with either RNG or THF sub, so that I can get invited to desperate pt's, and be a dead weight in that 6th slot. Hopefully I can change people's mind and explore charted territory all at the same time by doing something that's been attemped and failed before many times.

{Understood.}

 

[Pascal]

Personally I don't like NIN tanks because, I can't afford to play them in that role, which is the role best suited to them. Well I'll still try to lvl my NIN with either RNG or THF sub, so that I can get invited to desperate pt's, and be a dead weight in that 6th slot. Hopefully I can change people's mind and explore charted territory all at the same time by doing something that's been attemped and failed before many times.

{Understood.}

TiyaKelth this is not the flame board. Stating your opinion is one thing, changing a persons post to make fun of them is not appropriate on this board.

 

[Pascal]

Well, the thing is you and a few other people were saying they were not meant to be tanks,

I do not know if it is true, but I read some where that SE did not intend Ninja to be a Tank Class. But that aside

For the sake of I can’t stand having words put into my mouth. I never said they where not meant to be Tanks.

I clearly stated that I READ IT, and that I DID NOT KNOW IF IT WAS TRUE.

I then also said THAT ASIDE because the statement was not really that important to the point I was making. Which was the current nurf on Ninja has nothing to do with stopping them from Blink Tanking.

 

[vang]

Personally I don't like NIN tanks because, unless they spend an insane amount of money on tools (on top of the Utsusemi tool) and shurikens, they can't hold hate well. Well I'll still try to lvl my NIN with either RNG or THF sub. Hopefully I can change people's mind and explore uncharted territory all at the same time.

You are an idiot and a gimp.

Be gone scrub!

 

[Nevil]

WTF is wrong wit you people. Because I want to try something new on MY character, which I PAY for, you go off on me? Vang and TiyaKelth you both can go hell. I'll do whatever the f*ck I want with my character. If I fail that's my problem, it's not like I'm forcing you to play NIN any differently.

 

[alanon]

Personally I don't like NIN tanks because, unless they spend an insane amount of money on tools (on top of the Utsusemi tool) and shurikens, they can't hold hate well. Well I'll still try to lvl my NIN with either RNG or THF sub. Hopefully I can change people's mind and explore uncharted territory all at the same time.

Disclaimer:

******** THIS IS NOT A FLAME ********

If I am reading your statement right, it looks like you want to sub /Rng or /Thf on a Nin main. For the sake of discussion, if you are not planning on using Nin tools, what do these combos bring to a party? Utsemi would be useless because the only time you would get hit is with AOE, which brings down shadows anyway. Pulling would about be it, but a Thf or Rng or even Sam is as suited or more suited for that role.

 

[Chouzan]

Once you have access to the shuriken, a nin could be quite a good damage dealer with a rng sub. However, the cost of doing that effectively would be about double the cost of buying shihei to tank.

Subbing thf adds nothing to the nin job. You would deal better damage with war subbed.

 

[anesly]

WTF is wrong wit you people.

Nevermind Vang, he just thinks he's cool because he's figured out how to spell "scrub." Any day now he might figure out some other ones. He's a real rising star, that one.

 

[Pascal]

The DD Ninjas I have partied with still spent large amounts of money. They also still had WAR subbed. The primary difference is there gear setup to boost there hit rate and damage output, where tanks will be geared for evasion. In all cases though, they had Tank gear with them and could swap in and take the tanks job if needed. A versatile player is far more valuable to the party and me than a person who refuses to only do one role.

The reason I like having DD/Backup Tank Ninjas around is they are the idea replacement for monks, because most monks at my level are horribly equipped and do horrible damage when they finally can land a hit.

 

[Devi]

Personally I don't like NIN tanks because, unless they spend an insane amount of money on tools (on top of the Utsusemi tool) and shurikens, they can't hold hate well. Well I'll still try to lvl my NIN with either RNG or THF sub. Hopefully I can change people's mind and explore uncharted territory all at the same time.

You are an idiot and a gimp.

Be gone scrub!

Sorry but this dones't belong here, this is flamebaord fodder. Way to be a prick Vang...

 

[Phraust]

Let's take a second to look at what a Ninja can do shall we?

Enfeeb to an element:
Turn that 60 Damage spell into a 90 damage spell.
Spells actually do damage.
Ability to Magic Burst to any element.

Enfeeb Status:
Can bring down the total party damage aquired in a group.
Damage over time.

Utsusemi Shadows:
Lowers the overall 'Point of Failure' damage aquired by a tank.

Dual Wield:
The weapons a nin possesses can actually do damage.

Ninja Boots at night
Overlooked, if a ninja is failing, and since they possess all the hate, a ninja is able to run out a mob to save a party rather than die.

Yes, Ninja can in fact do decent damage on thier own if you include the added value of thier other skills without the added bonus of blink tanking.

But...

Should Utsusemi: Ichi & Ni be nerfed?

Got to ask yourself three questions:
1) How would you nerf it?
2) Why would you nerf it?
3) Who in fact is asking to have it nerfed?

Not to get on a rant here... But I will...

The 3 reasons anyone ever brings up this post are:

1) Paladins Thinking thier job should be sacred.
2) Cheap Ninja that whine about spending money.
3) People that play Ninja with a misconcieved Notion of what a ninja is.

In my experience, I hate Paladins. In my time playing, I can easily say that I have had as many good paladins as I have had bad Ninja. Maybe I come from a skewed bacground being a Thief and being the key element in Keeping a ninja's hate. And I rarely meet Paladins that even know how a thief works. The ninja job takes a whole lot more intellegence to play than Paladin, and this can be very intimidating to the Paladin, mainly because most Ninja parties are constructed around Dynamics rather than the set Formula of get hit and heal.

A good ninja party can do something a paladin party can't, Damage.

Typical Paladin Party:
Paladin
Whitemage
Magic damage (Black Mage)
Physical damage (Ranger, Dark Knight)
Support (Bard, Red Mage)
Support damage (Thief, Samurai, Dragoon, Summon, Monk)

Typical Ninja Party:
Ninja
Hate Traffic controller (Thief, Dark Knight)
Damage (Black Mage, Ranger, Dark Knight)
Support (Bard)
Damage (Black Mage, Ranger, Dark Knight)
Damage/Support (Black Mage, Ranger, Dark Knight, Samurai)

In the Paladin Group you have a main tank, healer, support and three possible Damage dealers.

In the Ninja group you have the capabilities of having 5 Damage dealers and a support.

More damage and less healing = more EXP/hr.

But at a price.

Paladin group = Free
Ninja Group = Money

Back to the original point:
Asking to nerf Blink tanking is like asking to nerf a ranger's damage output because they are not a black mage. There is no reason to do either.

So I ask:

Shouldn't the question be: Why would you even want to nerf it? Instead of Should it be nerfed?