VANG THE WANG PRINCE ?ITCH

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Phraust I hate to get dirty but your plain and simply an idiot.


Don't need emnity- post 55 eh? That makes a whole lot of sense seeing as it is a major part of whm af and you get such Cure spells as IV and V. And believe me we have all had out share of bad parties with tanks that couldnt hold hate off the mages. Hell or anyone else for that matter. The whole parties in the yellow, a paladin refuses to cure himself, and nin cant keep usti up... Hmmm wth am I suppose to do but spam cure to keep everyone alive. So yes if emnity- was of any importance at all it would be post 55.

Haste everyone in the party you say!! ROFL! Mmmmk
<haste> the rdm (he has it himself) er duh
<haste> the blm (cuz we all know they are fighting machines)
<haste> the paladin (because he needs attk speed since... huh ya know he only cures himself to keep hate)
<haste>the ranger (he's just pulling and standing back popping off massive damage)

Note to self: never get into a party with Phrast :lol:
I only feel the need to haste Nin, Thf, Mnk, Drk, Drg just MELEES in general.

To sum it up I wanna know what people say to an idiot thinking that
1.) Mages dont need Enmity- post 55 ~
2.) A whm that doesnt conserve her mp hasting THE WHOLE PARTY when its not neccessary.

Jeez I think I'll haste myself while im at it =D
 
bigdaddy said:
Phraust I hate to get dirty but your plain and simply an idiot.


Don't need emnity- post 55 eh? That makes a whole lot of sense seeing as it is a major part of whm af and you get such Cure spells as IV and V. And believe me we have all had out share of bad parties with tanks that couldnt hold hate off the mages. Hell or anyone else for that matter. The whole parties in the yellow, a paladin refuses to cure himself, and nin cant keep usti up... Hmmm wth am I suppose to do but spam cure to keep everyone alive. So yes if emnity- was of any importance at all it would be post 55.

Haste everyone in the party you say!! ROFL! Mmmmk
<haste> the rdm (he has it himself) er duh
<haste> the blm (cuz we all know they are fighting machines)
<haste> the paladin (because he needs attk speed since... huh ya know he only cures himself to keep hate)
<haste>the ranger (he's just pulling and standing back popping off massive damage)

Note to self: never get into a party with Phrast :lol:
I only feel the need to haste Nin, Thf, Mnk, Drk, Drg just MELEES in general.

To sum it up I wanna know what people say to an idiot thinking that
1.) Mages dont need Enmity- post 55 ~
2.) A whm that doesnt conserve her mp hasting THE WHOLE PARTY when its not neccessary.

Jeez I think I'll haste myself while im at it =D
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well before i quit i learned that you should haste pld at all times also. so i did without complaining or anything :) and it helped very much. i wouldnt haste a rng, theres just no reason. nin is a must, blm has no real need for it. rdm can haste them self ofcourse. mnk, thf, drg, drk etc should all get haste if you have time. but normally ill only haste the tank and 1 other in a party because i dont have time.'


yeah my post is probley messy but deal with it :)
 
lmao i just read over that again...you asked if i hasted myself as if i was suppose to haste my whm ars...lol wth people plz get him on this.

On another note if you were literate enough to read the previous post:
Blinxx said: "My magic skills are capped atm and always have been."
 
bigdaddy said:
Don't need emnity- post 55 eh? That makes a whole lot of sense seeing as it is a major part of whm af and you get such Cure spells as IV and V. And believe me we have all had out share of bad parties with tanks that couldnt hold hate off the mages. Hell or anyone else for that matter. The whole parties in the yellow, a paladin refuses to cure himself, and nin cant keep usti up... Hmmm wth am I suppose to do but spam cure to keep everyone alive. So yes if emnity- was of any importance at all it would be post 55.
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If you have to spam Cure4's to keep the party alive because your tank and/or the associated party sucks, no amount of -enmity is going to keep you alive. If your tank is incapable of using the tools givin him (the worst being the Pld who doesn't cure becuase they want a 300% SW :roll: ) then there is only one thing that will keep you alive:

/ma "Warp" <me>

I think in Phraust's scenario, he was saying that +mp helps more in a good party. In a good party you shouldn't have to worry as much about enmity.

I have only partied with Phraust once. He turned a bad party into a great one. Even talked the party out of the SC it was previously using (you wanna hear a Blm audibly groan, tell them that your SC is Transfixion. :evil: ).
 
hasting a mage is a good thing if you have the MP for it... you realize hasting not only increases attack speed but also decreases a magics recast time right? that's why hasting a NIN is key. And a RNG does melee at times (depending on their style) so hasting them can be a good thing. Hasting a PLD is a very good thing because more attacks in = more hate on him = better hate control. And with the enmity+ gear a tank should have and if they are skilled enough to do their thing to keep hate (I.E. a NIN using ninjitsu and a job ability or two and a PLD curing themselves or maybe others in the group for hate as well as job ability usage) Hasting everyone in the party is beneficial and throwing a RDM a haste might be good as the RDM needs to use that MP for a LOT of things. A lot of enfeebling, MBing, adding in healing, and much more. A WHM and BLM need not enfeeble but can help incase the RDM is having trouble getting it stuck -_- the only job I can't think of needing haste might be a SMN but I don't know that job well enough.
 
Wow Blinxx.. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt here but I guess you really don't have a clue. If you ask if your Gear is good or not, be prepared for a 'no' in the event that it happens.

I should have been more clear on my Emnity comment. It was in regaurds to your ring selection almost explicitly. I should have said: You already get a decent negative emnity bonus form your AF, you don't need to waste your ring slot for a negative emnity bonus that could otherwise be used as MP.

If you haste one person in your party, you raise the party's speed by about 1.66%, you Haste everyone, your entire party is 10% faster, thus 10% more efficient. 10% on the one factor that matters most: Time. Less time spent fighting means less time for getting hurt., means less cures used, means more MP. SO your little Haste goes a long way. I never assume there is going to be a RDM, there are Bards too, and they can Haste themselves... but not really, considering the next song they sing would overwrite it. But if you got a RDM, they should be laying on only 2 hastes, themself, and the tank. While you, the WHM should lay on the Haste on the other members. And Yes you Haste yourself... It's the Only way you can pull off Hasting your group AND healing.

You do notice no one is agreeing with you right? I can assure you the only reason no one has said anything before is because your job is in high demand, and people settle... Who knows you might get irritated to the point you DC after you level, just to be a selfish inconsiderate twit.

alanon, I areciate the compliment, but the only party I was ever in where i used Transfixation was in Altepa with two close IRL friends and that was the only skillchain available. I don't think you were there. However, we did that chain because it was an accident after several failed attempts at other chains, and I would never suggest using that chain (I could be abscent minded however) unless there were either Multiple WHM or RDM in the group, or the dominant Magic in question was White, I.E. there was a Pld, WHM, Brd, Rdm,and BLM, and we were just goofing off. I know this for one particular reason, I don't possess any weapon skills that can make Transfixation, and if I was a Ninja, I would prefere to use Blade: Retsu.(At my Level [38]). And... I don't party with monks enough to make the other possible half of the skillchain possible (One Inch Punch), and DRKs are out of the question because I leveled in the range a DRK would have Nightmare and beyond in two parties [30-38], neither had a DRK. Not jumping on your case, i just take my skillchains very seriously :D

There was several parties in the LoO that I had to explain to peole Scission > Distortion, in this one isolated place,

because:

Scission = Tachi: Yukikaze(250) >>> Dancing edge(700) >>> Scission(450) >>> Stonaga (450)
Total: 1,850

vs.

Distortion = Tachi: Empi(150) >>> Dancing Edge(700) >>> Distortion(30) >>> Blizzaga II(750)
Total: 1,630, And cost more MP wise (Until Stone III came out to play).

That was the only time I had any resistance suggestig an alternate Skillchain. And BLMs audibly groaned because NONE of the lazy fuckers had any stone spells...
 
Nah bro, it was Toramas. Transfixion was the chain the party was using before you showed up and made them change it. I remember not so much because of you, but transfixion?? GGGGGGGAAAAHH DAMN! just painful for me.
 
alanon said:
Nah bro, it was Toramas. Transfixion was the chain the party was using before you showed up and made them change it. I remember not so much because of you, but transfixion?? GGGGGGGAAAAHH DAMN! just painful for me.
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LOL

ok ok ok... I get it...
I read I talked the group into using transfixation, not that I talked em out of it... Ma bad..

kk I accept your compliment now, I do indeed rule. Carry on.
 
If you haste one person in your party, you raise the party's speed by about 1.66%, you Haste everyone, your entire party is 10% faster, thus 10% more efficient. 10% on the one factor that matters most: Time. Less time spent fighting means less time for getting hurt., means less cures used, means more MP. SO your little Haste goes a long way. I never assume there is going to be a RDM, there are Bards too, and they can Haste themselves... but not really, considering the next song they sing would overwrite it. But if you got a RDM, they should be laying on only 2 hastes, themself, and the tank. While you, the WHM should lay on the Haste on the other members. And Yes you Haste yourself... It's the Only way you can pull off Hasting your group AND healing.
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Wow is all I can say. Phraust you might want to reconsider your position on this before continuing your argument.

First off you hasting tank and melee DD is great stuff. Don't bother with rngs as it doesn't affect their rng attack speed and can throw off many rngs rythem if you speed up their dagger attacks.

Second, where are you pulling this 1.66% improvement from? Here are the majority of haste perecents courtesy of Ruic and Applepie.
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Dual Wield I = 10%
Dual Wield II = 15%
Dual Wield III = 25%
Dual Wield IV = 35%
Ninja AF1 or AF2 (per piece that gives DW bonus, there are 2) = 5% each (45%)
Sarashi = 5% (50%)
Suppanomimi = 5% (55%)
(Sub DRG and use Wyvern Earring) = 5% (60%)
Haste Spell = 12.5% (At least 72.5% haste.)
Garuda Haste-ga = Formula Unknown, based on Summoning skill of SMN, but is stronger than Haste. (72.5% haste+)
Various pieces of MNK/NIN/SAM armor that gives small bits of haste, IE Monsoon armor. (80%+ haste)
Bard March songs, Victory and Advancing March (At least 10% more haste, I'd estimate probably closer to 15-20%, but I don't have much bard information.) (90%+ haste.)
Bard Soul Voices March Songs: (100%+ Haste)
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As you can see haste is a 12.5% bonus and is used in this delay formulae: Delay * (1/(1+(Haste %/100))) = New Delay
Where does your 1.66% and 10% fit into this?

Third, you comment that the mages should be hasted as well. The only semi acceptable time for this is a rdm who needs faster refreshs for a mp heavy party. For anyone else, the 40 mp cost per cast is highly inefficient. At 70+ I find it quite difficult to keep haste on more than 2 people while still keeping my mp up to a point that I never cause downtime. More hastes than that results in a larger mp expenditure than I able to regain while chaining. There is no benefit in hasting mages that outweighs the mp cost. If haste only cost 10 mp, sure go for it. But 40 mp a shot is an entire tick of resting.
there are Bards too, and they can Haste themselves...
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I hope you aren't referring to the march line of songs. Those are a joke. :lol: Not that a bard has any use for haste though (exping on rdm weapons without a rdm to help dispell is about the only extreme, and even then its debatable).
Less time spent fighting means less time for getting hurt., means less cures used, means more MP.
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While haste certainly won't slow down a fight, spending an extra 40-80 mp per fight on additional hastes beyond what you are normally capable of can very well result in less mp. Just because I haste a thf for example doesn't mean that my haste is going to cause him to kill so much faster that I save 40mp worth of curing. Quite the opposite usually occurs. Haste is an mp inefficient spell that you cast as a sacrifice of spare mp. Haste doesn't improve mp efficieny, it lowers it in return for faster kills.
And Yes you Haste yourself... It's the Only way you can pull off Hasting your group AND healing.
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This comment appears to imply a common misconception about haste. Haste doesn't cause you cast any faster whatso ever. It only speeds up the recast. This is a mute issue when you stop and realize haste lasts 3min with a 20 second cool down. Thus the only limiting factor on hasting your entire party is mp, not time.

For a good discussion on the proper uses of haste click here.
 
This is Blinxx~

Foot in her mouth
Blinxx's noob skill rises 0.5 and reaches lvl 256
I honestly had no idea that haste also decreased magic casting time
I was only aware that it increased attack speed.
I sincerly apologize to you Phrast and I deserve your spat back.
BTW STFU Vang.. thank you
But seriously I dont claim to know everything about this game and I thank you and ellimere for imforming what I should have already known :oops: I only can't believe that has never been discussed or brought up :cry: In 61 lvls I have never had a mage tell me to haste them nor ask why i wasnt hasting myself >.< Again I apologize Phrast but im still keeping my peace ring =P Until I can afford something better anyway. It does also add mp. As far as more added I still stand by its fine at the 819 as that I never run out of mp. LOL I used to get bitched at all the time before af that "everything you have on is MP added thats gay"
You need more MND im told, that is key as a whm or smn. So near 500k later I figured I had balanced the two pretty well :cry:

I take back the things I said Phrast and hope you dont hold it against me.
And i didnt fake d/c! goddamit lol :roll:
 
hehe... it took me awhile to realize that magic recast time was lessened by Haste but it really is nice to have^^ it's not reduced by much but certainly helps
 
You need more MND im told, that is key as a whm or smn. So near 500k later I figured I had balanced the two pretty well
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The only time you need +mnd is when partied with a brd and no rdm leaving you in charge of enfeebles. This is where equip macros save the day. I keep one macro for all +mnd gear and the other for all +mp. Equip all the +mp before enfeebling, then switch back when done. I also use this when mbing banish 3 on light chains, but that's because we are fighting VT mobs and mp is in excess. :wink: Outside enfeebling +mnd gear is something of a waste.
 
This board is starting to be really helpful :D
I obviously get bogus information...I was told +MND helps to build mp faster while resting >.<
 
Rones:

I was being conservative on the Haste figure being 10% and the 1.66% was referig to the Party's over all speed, if One member out of 6 has haste that would be a total party haste of only 1.66% (10% for Party/6 Members).

And your Recast on Haste will come up about the same time if you are on a cycle, Timed Right you will need to do it twice in a Chain 5 Scenario, In the beginning, and after/during kill #3. Either way, yes the spell casts and lasts for 3 minutes, and cool fo r20 seconds, but when you have to cast 4-6 Hastes, that shaves off not only a little over 10 seconds, but even more on your cures you are slinging out in between.

Hasting a Ranger Is GOOD!!! Most of thier Weaponskills are ENHANCED by more TP. The more TP they get, and the More Damage they do, the Faster you Kill things. If you are worried about controlling Hate.... Get a thief. It's like saying, "Hey can you piss in my soup? It tastes too good."

Blinxx,
It's cool. Seriously, if you are a Mithran, AND a WHM, you have a million opprotunities to get the things you need, Jungle Stone, River Gaiters, and Astral Rings are ALL BCNM, and ALL require a WHM. and Lucky you, you are level 60+.

It was very noble of you to admit you were wrong. Thank you. The Lvl>>>DC comment was a little out of line and I appoogize.
 
bigdaddy said:
This board is starting to be really helpful :D
I obviously get bogus information...I was told +MND helps to build mp faster while resting >.<
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Befor you finish making that noose for your friend that said that, I am sure that they thought you meant "Clear Mind" and not Mind as a stat. Clear Mind as you already Know, does indeed increase the amount of MP regenerated while resting.
 
well isnt this cute everyones getting along :)


awww...

oh except vang
 
was being conservative on the Haste figure being 10% and the 1.66% was referig to the Party's over all speed, if One member out of 6 has haste that would be a total party haste of only 1.66% (10% for Party/6 Members).
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You still didn't answer where you are getting that 10% or 1.66% other than you say that it is the speed increase of the party which means nothing. I showed how haste affects weapon delay, but I see no connection to your numbers unless you are just pulling them out of nowhere. Giving the whm haste for example isn't going to speed up the party as I explained in my previous post, it wil be a waste of mp with no return.
And your Recast on Haste will come up about the same time if you are on a cycle, Timed Right you will need to do it twice in a Chain 5 Scenario, In the beginning, and after/during kill #3.
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HAHA, at least I have to admire your opitimism. :lol: A usual chain 5 is 15 mins (5 casts of haste per person) allowing for fighting, pulling, and mob repops. Get 4 chain 5s in an hour with an average of 1-1.5k exp per chain 5 and you get the typical 4-6k exp an hour. With haste lasting 3 mins I use to have to cast it once every fight. First at the start of a fight, half way through next, and end of the following fight, and then a I can finally skip one fight from casting it. This changes somewhat at 73+ since everything is VT and fights go by exceptionally fast and are no longer a good timer for refreshing spells or songs.

Just to clarify how big of investment haste is consider this: 2 melees with haste every 3 min for an hour = 1,200 mp on nothing but haste. Yet you claim the whm should be hasting 4-5 people constantly, that figure suddenly jumps to 2,400-3,000 mp an hour on nothing but hastes. Also consider whms 65+ average 40 mp per tick every 15 seconds. This means I have to spend 10 mins resting for every player I want to keep hasted per hour. Now tell me how it is possible to keep haste on 4-5 players for an hour and resting for 40-50 mins and only leaving refresh to supply all your mp needs for cures. Also keep in mind hastes long recast so you have to pop up while resting rather often to rebuff it much like rdms experience with refresh.

Hasting a Ranger Is GOOD!!! Most of thier Weaponskills are ENHANCED by more TP. The more TP they get, and the More Damage they do, the Faster you Kill things. If you are worried about controlling Hate.... Get a thief. It's like saying, "Hey can you piss in my soup? It tastes too good."
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You missed a big point of my last post so I'll repeat it for enphasis:
"Haste is an mp inefficient spell that you cast as a sacrifice of spare mp. Haste doesn't improve mp efficieny, it lowers it in return for faster kills. "
In other words I could maintain a high mp lvl easier by never casting haste despite the fights lasting longer. Thus when a mage decides to cast haste he needs to get the most out of it. You get very little return on hasting rangers. If you had read that thread on haste I linked to you would have seen rng's comments such as this:
Don't ever cast haste on me. I'd shoot you if you do...my dagger speed totally screwed up my timing
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As for the tp comment, it is true many weapons skills become stronger with more tp (exact formulaes here), but rng's get 95% of their tp from their bows/guns. On top of that rng's daggers have a really low dmg per tp given the mob ratio, thus if daggers were actually getting the rng a signifigant amount of tp it would still be worse because the mob would be gaining more tp per dmg given it.

This whole thing is giving me the impression that you think haste is a free spell and mp is in never ending supply. Haste is a very draining spell on mp supply.

Astral Rings
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Hundreds of items better for a whm to get before spending 1mill+ for 10 extra mp.
 
ugh...

Start with the astrals...

You people see prices, I see the slot value, and attainability. These rings are free. Start making friends that want to help you.. Same thing goes for the rest of good WHM gear, most of it comes from BCNMs. THe only thing I think of as a 'difficult' item to get are Serket rings and Vivian rings.

I don't think you understand the concept I am trying to convey with the 1.66% Haste for the group. If an entire group is at 100% spead at all the time and you haste one sixth of that group by 10%, the entire group's speed increases 1.66%, assuming that Haste increases the player's speed by 10%. [ x= 6y ] [ y= 1 ] (x-y) + (y*1.10) = (6-1) + (1 * 1.10) = 6.10 = 1.0166x

My chain 5 Scenario was a tad warped... I was thinking: "I only get to do SATA once a fight, therefore we fight for one minute." It was an error in thinking, Prime SATA[00:00] Pull[00:20] Set up & skillchain[00:05] thirty swings[01:30] = almost 2 minutes a fight. my bad. Still we're looking at roughly 10 minutes, three to four haste cycles tops. (More like three with a little time between "Playerx's Haste effect wears off" and the time they get it again.) And I know you don't time your Haste to exactly when the point to where the spell is cast right at the moment that it fades. It is not a wasted spell. Next to Gravity, Slow and Paralyze, Haste is one of the most important spells in the game for over all dynamic support, excluding Bard songs. There are a lot of factors not taken into consideration: Conserve MP, Refreshes, Aspir, Juices. I know it's possible, because my WHM and RDM have no problems keeping everyone hasted. And we all see the value in the spell. Granted looking back on it, I can't say that the BLM was Hasted.

As far as rangers being Hasted, the ones I party with have no issue, unless I can't keep up TP wise and the Mobs die before I can get 100TP. If a Ranger is using his Daggers to time something? Idk... But I rarely hear any problems about Rangers being hasted except the mobs die too quick and thier Skillchain partners can't keep up.

I was in a BAD party stumbling through 5k/hr EXP. went in with 2k, by the time my food faded, I was at 7k. I checked because I thought we were going slow, and things didn't seem to do well... But I been in Parties with 7-8k/hr outputs.

Yeah my apologies, I made my mistakes in my arguements. I hope things are clear now. I agree that Haste sacrifices MP efficency for Faster kills, but in that very statemant is a flaw, are you really 'sacrificing' anything per se'? Personally I opt for the faster Kills. It's funner :D
 
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