When is it time to leave an endgame shell?

jamal said:
To play devil's advocate...

You don't need to be a brain surgeon to figure this game out. There's people posting in this thread with multiple 75's that I know for a fact are hindrances to the shell because they don't understand the mechanics of one, let alone many.

If you have the time to properly equip and give attention to multiple jobs performing multiple roles, then by all means do it. If you don't, then don't waste the time leveling the jobs...there's little else in this game that upsets me more than seeing someone with multiple 75's running around with nq staves, nq amemits, nq str or int rings (to name a few).
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Your PLD is gimp.
 
jamal said:
If you have the time to properly equip and give attention to multiple jobs performing multiple roles, then by all means do it. If you don't, then don't waste the time leveling the jobs...there's little else in this game that upsets me more than seeing someone with multiple 75's running around with nq staves, nq amemits, nq str or int rings (to name a few).
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That smacks of elitism to me, the 1 INT you dont get off a 400k ring over a 30k ring makes virtually no difference on a nuke, not everyone is made of money in this game and has +1 all gear/weapons, the HQ staffs is a good upgrade indeed and some people are actually trying to get better gear via farming and other ventures its a slow process but rome wasnt made overnight.
 
Jeska said:
That smacks of elitism to me, the 1 INT you dont get off a 400k ring over a 30k ring makes virtually no difference on a nuke, not everyone is made of money in this game and has +1 all gear/weapons, the HQ staffs is a good upgrade indeed and some people are actually trying to get better gear via farming and other ventures its a slow process but rome wasnt made overnight.
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Sorry, but I don't want to be like everyone else. Whitebox matters because it shows you give a shit about what you wear.
 
Cumulative effect of better gear. Not that I would expect most to agree since it obviously consumes so much time.
 
jamal said:
To play devil's advocate...

You don't need to be a brain surgeon to figure this game out. There's people posting in this thread with multiple 75's that I know for a fact are hindrances to the shell because they don't understand the mechanics of one, let alone many.

If you have the time to properly equip and give attention to multiple jobs performing multiple roles, then by all means do it. If you don't, then don't waste the time leveling the jobs...there's little else in this game that upsets me more than seeing someone with multiple 75's running around with nq staves, nq amemits, nq str or int rings (to name a few).
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Jamal, you're an awesome guy, but I use NQ rings on all my jobs (well, WAR uses rajas/ulthalam's, and BLM has a sorc and an int+4). I don't get any complaints about sucking at any of them except lolretiredwhm.

Speaking of, I think my rdm macros still think I have a Tamas... and that was ... months ago that I traded them...

point being, HQ staves yes, HQ amemet (if not forager's) yes, but two acc or two mnd/int makes no difference whatsoever. That is, unless you've got absolutely nothing else to buy... which most people with multiple 75's have plenty of crap to buy.
 
Jeska said:
That smacks of elitism to me, the 1 INT you dont get off a 400k ring over a 30k ring makes virtually no difference on a nuke, not everyone is made of money in this game and has +1 all gear/weapons, the HQ staffs is a good upgrade indeed and some people are actually trying to get better gear via farming and other ventures its a slow process but rome wasnt made overnight.
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Rome built a strong centralized army first (aka your first jobs) and then absorbed the areas around them (expanding to other jobs) due to the elitest attitude they had that they were better than everyone else. Using this example builds into my argument...don't move on to another job until you have your first one completely centralized.

Look what happens when you spread yourself too thin...the reasons for the fall of the Roman empire included being spread too thin, they couldn't keep a handle on everything they had obtained, and eventually all was lost EXCEPT for their central starting point.

How's that for an argument, damn I'm good, lol.
 
jamal said:
How's that for an argument, damn I'm good, lol.
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Yet still so modest! =P
But, actually I have to kind of agree, something that really bothers me. Someone who has mutiple 75's but you really don't want them to switch to this or that because they can't play it. I do agree about the gear though, maybe every piece doesn't need to be whiteboxed.. but there is definately a certain standard you should hit with every job. If you can't meet that standard don't start something new until you do.
 
Hmkiroko said:
Sorry, but I don't want to be like everyone else. Whitebox matters because it shows you give a shit about what you wear.
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Gear does not make the player, player makes the gear. There are quite a few idiots who take "pride" in their gear because someone said X piece was the best without so much as a thought why. I've seen morons with full HQ, speed belt and a kraken club, among other things reciting idiocy off a website because it's the newest thing. Little did he know, if he had actually read the website and understood it rather than copy and pasting word for word, he might have actually seemed semi-intelligent rather than an elitist fucktard. You're right, it shows you care about what you wear, but if you have no idea why you're wearing it, then what does it matter?

White borders mean nothing unless you can put them to use. I'll take a common sense gimp over your HQ toating brain dead idiots anyday.
 
Lavi said:
Gear does not make the player, player makes the gear. There are quite a few idiots who take "pride" in their gear because someone said X piece was the best without so much as a thought why. I've seen morons with full HQ, speed belt and a kraken club, among other things reciting idiocy off a website because it's the newest thing. Little did he know, if he had actually read the website and understood it rather than copy and pasting word for word, he might have actually seemed semi-intelligent rather than an elitist fucktard. You're right, it shows you care about what you wear, but if you have no idea why you're wearing it, then what does it matter?

White borders mean nothing unless you can put them to use. I'll take a common sense gimp over your HQ toating brain dead idiots anyday.
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Assuming equal skill, gear trumps all. Hmk is one of the most skilled blms on the server AND takes pride in his gear. Your post shows no relevancy at all. You don't need to have white-boxes to be retarded, and there's far more retarded people with shit gear than there is with elite gear. There's far more intelligent people with elite gear, than intelligent people with shit gear.

You starting to see the trend?
 
jamal said:
Assuming equal skill, gear trumps all. Hmk is one of the most skilled blms on the server AND takes pride in his gear. Your post shows no relevancy at all. You don't need to have white-boxes to be retarded, and there's far more retarded people with shit gear than there is with elite gear. There's far more intelligent people with elite gear, than intelligent people with shit gear.

You starting to see the trend?
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Trend yes, rule no. Assuming unequal skill, gear is trumped by skill. So what? Hmk is but one person, I can name a half dozen elitist morons with superior gear and inferior intelligence. "You don't need to be a brain surgeon to figure this game out", correct? If it takes no intelligence it means even an idiot can accomplish anything in this game. If that's the case, then the deciding factor in anything is time. The person with the most time wins. Now in some cases, I will give you drive and motivation can surpass other things and even intelligence can accomplish more, but given this game has been out a very long time, the idiots have had plenty of opportunity to catch up to drive, motivation and intelligence. Heck, even luck surpasses intelligence in this game.
 
You quoted Hmk and after quoting him you started talking about elitest morons. You need to be more specific when talking about things, and not use Hmk's quote to lash out at some unknown moron with a speedbelt.

Hmk taking pride in his gear doesn't mean he's an elitest moron, you've yet to show me why this is the case. I said trend because it's not a rule, but you're treating it as such in the converse argument.

BLM/WHM/BRD have always been jobs that could guarantee you spots in a shell. There's a HUGE line however, in the BLMs that take pride in their job, and the people that just lvl'd the job because either:
A. The ls needed them to
B. They knew they could use it to get other gear

That's my entire point, and why things are being spread to thin. If you can't tell the difference between these personalities, then I don't know what I can tell you.
 
jamal said:
Assuming equal skill, gear trumps all. Hmk is one of the most skilled blms on the server AND takes pride in his gear. Your post shows no relevancy at all. You don't need to have white-boxes to be retarded, and there's far more retarded people with shit gear than there is with elite gear. There's far more intelligent people with elite gear, than intelligent people with shit gear.

You starting to see the trend?
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Most definitely, but you have to admit we both know a few people who have outstanding gear and can't play to save their lives.

lolaggroesthedeathhouse

Not all players have equal skill. In TheDynamisShow, there were better-equipped WHMs than Reya, but there weren't any that I would rather have watching my back.

I don't look at a person's gear and assume gimp if I don't see any white boxes. There are, however, a few items I definitely watch for. NQ Amemet does indeed put me on edge, since that's one of those pieces that are relatively cheap for the boost gained from the HQ.

I don't expect HQ everything. It's the attitude that matters, one of trying to improve as best they can within the limitations each of us has on our playtime.
 
Raesvelg said:
I don't expect HQ everything. It's the attitude that matters, one of trying to improve as best they can within the limitations each of us has on our playtime.
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I'd agree with this completely.
 
jamal said:
You quoted Hmk and after quoting him you started talking about elitest morons. You need to be more specific when talking about things, and not use Hmk's quote to lash out at some unknown moron with a speedbelt.

Hmk taking pride in his gear doesn't mean he's an elitest moron, you've yet to show me why this is the case. I said trend because it's not a rule, but you're treating it as such in the converse argument.

BLM/WHM/BRD have always been jobs that could guarantee you spots in a shell. There's a HUGE line however, in the BLMs that take pride in their job, and the people that just lvl'd the job because either:
A. The ls needed them to
B. They knew they could use it to get other gear

That's my entire point, and why things are being spread to thin. If you can't tell the difference between these personalities, then I don't know what I can tell you.
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I do get what you're saying, but treating people with better gear as better players is presumptuous at best. Gear is earned based on time and effort, not quality of play. You'll get all different kinds of people and I think it's best to judge a person based on their skill first and foremost rather than their gear.
 
To address what Lavi said (can't quote anything specific):

I would rather take a smart person over an idiot, no contest. When you are not playing casually like most participants of this thread, you are playing to win in end-game against others. A smart person, but yet does not gear their character appropriately, is not playing to win, and is not striving to perform.

If an "intelligent player" with medicore gear knows he/she can be a better player through effort (farming/time/whatever), but chooses not to, does that really make that person smart?

To me this whole arguement depends on the person. It depends on how you want to carry yourself in-game. That's my viewpoint.
 
Hmkiroko said:
To address what Lavi said (can't quote anything specific):

I would rather take a smart person over an idiot, no contest. When you are not playing casually like most participants of this thread, you are playing to win in end-game against others. A smart person, but yet does not gear their character appropriately, is not playing to win, and is not striving to perform.

If an "intelligent player" with medicore gear knows he/she can be a better player through effort (farming/time/whatever), but chooses not to, does that really make that person smart?

To me this whole arguement depends on the person. It depends on how you want to carry yourself in-game. That's my viewpoint.
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Unlike what Jamal wants to say, I am not calling you elitist by any stretch, but I differ in opinion. Not everyone can play as often as others. I'm saying gear is primarily defined by play time, to a lesser extent drive, and very little to do with skill. If people are expected to farm constantly when they have very little play time, then they're simply not going to enjoy the game as much as somene who has plenty of time to play and needs to farm up the same items. The choice is either quit, take your time farming or give up all enjoyable time to farm those items? When it's just a game, most would just take their time and get the most enjoyment out of it.
 
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I don't know about you but for me winning is enjoying. It's a means to an end. Sure, I don't like farming hours on end but I don't like feeling I'm under performing when I could do better even less than that. It's not really how much time you have to me but what you do with it. Even if you have a fraction of the play time versus someone else if you use your time smartly you can at least keep your gear up to date. For Endgame gear I can understand one person having an obvious advantage.
 
jamal said:
Rome built a strong centralized army first (aka your first jobs) and then absorbed the areas around them (expanding to other jobs) due to the elitest attitude they had that they were better than everyone else. Using this example builds into my argument...don't move on to another job until you have your first one completely centralized.

Look what happens when you spread yourself too thin...the reasons for the fall of the Roman empire included being spread too thin, they couldn't keep a handle on everything they had obtained, and eventually all was lost EXCEPT for their central starting point.

How's that for an argument, damn I'm good, lol.
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For once I agree with you. This is a very nice analogy. I hate it when people sell there stuff from 1 job to level another, it seem to defeat the point of leveling your first job, if you just going to gimp it. If you can't support your expanding to a new job then wait until you can.

While gear is no wear near everything. A person skill, and actions (aka gil buy, loot whore, get and ditch) should also be looked at. This being said 9/10 the only thing a person can go on is gear, and word of mouth of members of that ls so actions are normally not to visible.
 
Lack of HQ, doesnt really bother me.

What does bother me, is somone having NQ gear one day and 2 months later having the exact same gear. I think everyone should constantly be "bettering" themselves, you know, like people do in RL. Everyone knows that while exping thier first job they could have done it better or differently. Thats what makes lvling a 2nd job so much fun. You know exactly what you need and you can do it the "Right" way.

I made a rule for myself being a multi-75 person myself. I like to get some sort of an upgrade, whether it be merits, or equipment, most of the time both on all my jobs every month. That allows me to have pride in what I am building and keeps me progressing.

Like alot of people already said about attitude. I think ill just say, just give me a person who actually IS progressive and 9 times out of 10 they will be good at what they do, with decent equipement.
 
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