Why GAY people should not Marry

I never mentioned you being a homophobe in this topic. I just asked if you know that homosexuality is a natural thing, considering you seem to be against homosexual marriage.

I believe you said "normal".

And while you may be politically correct in calling being gay normal, by the definition of the word "normal" it is not. Because if it were we would not be having this conversation.

And I'm not against homosexual marraige, because there is no such thing.

You create a "civil union" with all the benefits of marraige, I'll support it if thats what everyone wants. If you change the history and definition of marriage then I'll support it. But you just can't include yourself in something because you "feel" like it.
 
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In Spartan society young warriors were thought to have looked upon an older soldier for guidance. Its said that most of these relationships had a sexual underlining to them.

Just sayin'.

All of Greece was the same. They had/may still have a saying they give to their daughters on their wedding night. "Don't let him turn you over".
 
12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because a "separate but equal" institution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as separate marriages will for gays & lesbians.
The flipside of the civil union is that it's a foot in the door. You have a much better chance of passing a civil union law than a gay marriage law, and once society is acclimated to them, equality is just a couple generations away. The minority can't expect instant change and acceptance from the majority, but the counterculture becomes absorbed into the culture over time.
 
And while you may be politically correct in calling being gay normal, by the definition of the word "normal" it is not. Because if it were we would not be having this conversation.

And I'm not against homosexual marraige, because there is no such thing.

You create a "civil union" with all the benefits of marraige, I'll support it if thats what everyone wants. If you change the history and definition of marriage then I'll support it. But you just can't include yourself in something because you "feel" like it.

Just because its being discussed doesn't make something unnatural, thats a bit of a harsh charge. It's not discussed because its not normal/natural, its discussed because its different from the socially accepted norm. Thats socially accepted, not naturally accepted. Humans aren't the only form of life that engage in homosexual tendencies at times. I'm not all for the humans are not animals arguement. I think we're evolved animals and definitley something special, but still in the category of life with animals. With that said, other animals do engage in homosexual activities.

The best idea I've heard so far was the person who said why not make all marriage under state law civil unions and allow churches to perform ceremonial marriages "under God." Marriage is a religious institution. If a certain church is willing to allow gay marriage, then they would be allowed to do so. If not, fine, the couple will have to respect that. Making the legal benefits of marriage into a civil union wont hurt anyone except the anti-homosexual marriage crowd, who wont want to fall into the same category with people who are different than them.

There is such a thing as homosexual marriage by the way. Some states do allow it. And we can't forget the other countries that allow for it. Massachusetts allows gay marriage, as the term MARRIAGE too not Civil Union. Legislators there have been trying since 2003 to overturn the Mass. Supreme Court to overturn the allowance of them, but they haven't succeeded - even as recently as June - http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2007/06/legislators_vot_1.html
New York doesn't deny gay marriage and there are motions to allow it but they are being beaten down at present time. I read that they recognize the marriage of couples who married in say, Canada or another country that allows gay marriage.
Justice Joan Lefkowitz of the New York Supreme Court ruled last week that same-sex marriages performed outside the country are valid, even though gay New Yorkers cannot be legally married in their home state.

If the ruling holds up on appeal, “it will mean for all practical purposes, same-sex marriage is legal in the state of New York,” because people can easily cross the border to get married, said Koppelman.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics/story.html?id=7f7342bb-18fe-4704-bf96-0e894f058a62

Those are the only two states that allow the term marriage when talking about homosexual union. New York less defined than Massachusetts. Connecticut, Vermont and New Jersey recognize civil unions. In many states, domestic partnerships are very reminiscent of marriages. Oregon will be getting marriage-rights-included domestic partnerships in 2008, California has domestic partnerships. Maine does. Washington does. There are stepping stones in place to get a higher policy passed.

My personal bet is these are compromise moves in order for the current legislators to not lose their perceived legitimacy from the religious side of the arguement. If they jump on and say they're 100% for gay marriage, they may lose a lot of voters in the next election. They understand that these couples need and deserve the rights between partners as well as for their children if they decide to have them. So they compromise a similar agreement that isn't termed marriage. You can't deny that there are stepping stones toward legalizing gay marriages in place. I think its an inevitability that there will be progress, though it might not be absolute progress. Our generation has a lot more relaxed opinions on things than the previous generation. I really think once we start to age there will definitley be a bit of a shifting change. We'll see =)
 
Just because its being discussed doesn't make something unnatural, thats a bit of a harsh charge. It's not discussed because its not normal/natural, its discussed because its different from the socially accepted norm. Thats socially accepted, not naturally accepted. Humans aren't the only form of life that engage in homosexual tendencies at times. I'm not all for the humans are not animals arguement. I think we're evolved animals and definitley something special, but still in the category of life with animals. With that said, other animals do engage in homosexual activities.

You may have taken that out of context or I may have written that poorly.

Just because it happens does not make it "normal". And abnormal is only a bad thing if you precieve it to be bad.

Same-sex marriage yes, Homosexual marriage no. Am I mincing words? yes. But so are the gay people that demand to have "marriage" and not "civil unions".
 
I should've pointed out the "burdened with children" quote is an old one by Sam Austin. I'll go back and attribute it to him in my original post. It's one I like to drag out when I have to go through the song and dance about why I don't want children. Being gay used to be a self-explanatory excuse for being child-free, but we're all so mainstream now that you're still considered a freak if you don't want kids. There are plenty of gay guys in the dating pool who have kids, so there's just no escaping it anymore.

As for the whole "civil unions" vs "marriage" debate, I view "civil unions" as a stepping stone to full marriage equality. I'll take the protections I can get for now and never stop clamoring for full inclusion. They're not equal institutions, and I'm not going to pretend they are.
 
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In all fairness, you took Uzor's original statement out of context. He defined the context using the wrong -by definition- word. Many people use normal as saying okay to occur, or to happen.
Uzor said:
you DO know Homosexuality is normal though, right? Homosexuality exists within all sexual species on earth. Including, but not limited to, rabbits, ducks, monkeys and humans. Yes, humans are animals.

By normal he implied a natural connotation to the word. Also, another definition of normal is:
2. Biology Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies.

I think that was more of what he meant by his use of normal. I do see what you're saying about it not being a widely accepted social "norm," but that was not the original context that was intended by Uzor, which was the reason you made the statement about politically correct not equating normal.

And while a norm defines a socially acceptable idea or action, it doesn't make that action absolute. There are people who respect same-sex/homosexual/gay relationships and those who don't care about it. While its the most socially acceptable alternative to be straight, it doesn't make it abhorable to be gay. Social norms change. Normal isn't a constant. Normal can change, by definition since a society can grow and develop new ideals over time. Natural, nature risen, can't really change. If it naturally occurs, theres nothing that can be done to change it aside from artificial alternatives that by nature would be considered destructive. (IE: sex change surgery, plastic surgery, etc)

Perhaps the discussion isn't occuring because it isn't a social norm, but maybe because it is trying to evolve toward becoming a socially accepted thought..
 
As for the whole "civil unions" vs "marriage" debate, I view "civil unions" as a stepping stone to full marriage equality. I'll take the protections I can get for now and never stop clamoring for full inclusion. They're not equal institutions, and I'm not going to pretend they are.

One step beyond that - Lets rewrite the laws accordingly. Civil Union's for all - Church Endorsement for the religious. Everyone who gives a damn on the issue would be pacified.

I mean, Atheists would have no problem, because now they aren't sanctified before 'God.' The religious should have no problem because their 'sacred' institution does not include gay people. Gay people should have no problem with it because they get equal rights. And if they are religious, I'm sure the church they attend would do a ceremony, and if not - they could find one.

Moderate solution to an extremist's issue - hoolay! Btw - that is a totally serious suggestion. I think Zylia got that from Obama when we were discussing politics. Totally cool guy btw - Obama is the man!
 
Nice list.

Darkdante said:
Gay people already have all the same rights everybody else does, if you want to marry a person of different sex, then the rule applies to you.

If your gay, heterosexual, black, white, jap, *****, flip, jew, it does not matter.

The same rule for marriage applies to everyone, no matter your sexual preference, or race etc....

That's the way it should be, not the way it is. Canada and Spain are the only countries where the legal status of same-sex marriage is exactly the same as that of opposite-sex marriage, though South Africa is due to fully harmonize its marriage laws. Other nations all have residency requirements that apply to same-sex marriage that do not apply to opposite-sex marriage.

In the United States, there are at least 1,138 federal laws "in which marital status is a factor." A denial of rights or benefits without substantive due process, assert the proponents of same-sex marriage, directly contradicts the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides for equal protection of all citizens. For instance, a heterosexual US citizen who marries a foreign partner immediately qualifies to bring that person to the United States, while long-term gay and lesbian binational partners who have spent decades together are denied the same rights, forcing foreign gay partners to seek expensive temporary employer or school-sponsored visas or face separation.

Why should we change rules simply because you are gay?

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not here, so I'm going to assume you are not. The rules should be changed to protect the rights of the minorities. There isn't much more to it than that.

Civil unions are the way to go, marraige was not created for same sex relationships, just like marriage was not created for me to marry my brother so we can get tax credits.

Marriage was created for 2 people that love each other, and sexual preferance was never an issue untill massive amounts of homosexuals started coming out of the closet. Now, people wish to exclude them from marriage in order to suppress their rights as human beings.

If your trying to label me as a homophobe, then knock yourself out. Proving that however will take considerable more effort.

I don't think you are a homophobe. I think you have a very hard time seeing other peoples point of view.

This mindset, thats why, thats how, it directly affects everyone.

Our population needs children made, our government needs new children to support it, and so our government supports those that make children.

I could maybe understand what you were saying if the Death rate was higher than the birthrate, but it isn't.

I believe you said "normal".

And while you may be politically correct in calling being gay normal, by the definition of the word "normal" it is not. Because if it were we would not be having this conversation.

And I'm not against homosexual marraige, because there is no such thing.

You create a "civil union" with all the benefits of marraige, I'll support it if thats what everyone wants. If you change the history and definition of marriage then I'll support it. But you just can't include yourself in something because you "feel" like it.

It is normal to love another human being, and that's all these people homosexual people are doing.

And yes, there most certainly is a such thing as homosexual marraige, just not in the United States.

If I didn't know you better, from that last paragraph, I'd guess you were a republican. What about when black and white people felt like they should be included with intreracial marriage? That worked out just fine. You really need to try and put yourself in the shoes of the people whose view you do not understand.
 
"In the United States, there are at least 1,138 federal laws "in which marital status is a factor." A denial of rights or benefits without substantive due process, assert the proponents of same-sex marriage, directly contradicts the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides for equal protection of all citizens. For instance, a heterosexual US citizen who marries a foreign partner immediately qualifies to bring that person to the United States, while long-term gay and lesbian binational partners who have spent decades together are denied the same rights, forcing foreign gay partners to seek expensive temporary employer or school-sponsored visas or face separation."

This is my problem, I am leaving the country in 2 years so me and my partner can stay together. We have been together for almost 4 years.

So I need to leave the country i was born in and my family. how is this fare, i want to be with my partner so the only way for me to do this i need to leave.

If i was straight that would not be a problem because i can marry my partner and have her stay. But this is not the case
 
lol@list

No problem with homosexuals though.



On a serious note, what about pedophiles? Do you think they can prevent themselves from loving children?

But wait, thats against the law, and the majority of the populace abhor pedo's...

Not that Im supporting pedophilia, but thats your perfectly legitimate and relatable example.

Well, there is an "age" (and I use that term loosely) when the human body and brain can accept sexual activity. Pedophiles have sexual activity with children, who are, as a fact, too young to grasp what is happening. This severely halts or destroys their developmental cycle and therefore does not produce a fully functioning human being.

How many times has a serial killer molested the children they kill because of what was done to them? It should be illegal and looked down upon because it can cause bodily and mental harm to someone.

On the other hand, while homosexuality is a naturally occuring much like you claim pedophelia is (and I disagree) no one is getting harmed because of it.

I can see where you're coming from, but the whole pedo angle just doesn't work.
 
That's the way it should be, not the way it is. Canada, Sweden and Spain are the only countries where the legal status of same-sex marriage is exactly the same as that of opposite-sex marriage, though South Africa is due to fully harmonize its marriage laws. Other nations all have residency requirements that apply to same-sex marriage that do not apply to opposite-sex marriage.
Fixed. I'm sure there are a lot of other countries as well, but I don't know them by heart. That's one of the reasons the site http://www.godhatessweden.com/ exists :p
 
"Homosexuality is nature's way of ensuring that the truly gifted are not burdened with children." -- Sam Austin

aids is natures way of telling the "truly gifted" that not even they can outsmart nature.
 
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Aaleel said:
People want to ban Gay marriage on the basis of the Bible, but yet you have Fornicators, adulterers, and divorced people walking to the poll to cast votes against it. I may not agree with it personally, but I know I hate hypocrisy, and also as a black person, I've been through enough in my short life, that I'm unwilling to discriminate against another group of people.

I'll just quote this from the other thread, and to me this absurdity of the laws is seen by one example. That first teacher who slept with a student. She commited a crime against a boy and society, and not only was she allowed to keep her rights and get married, she was allowed to marry the VICTIM of the crime. Two people who just want to live in peace, and not bother anyone lose rights, but this woman keeps hers.

This has nothing to do with the Bible or morality for a lot of people. People don't like the idea of people being gay, and a lot of people just wrap discrimination up in the Bible, and to me that's just as bad.
 
aids is natures way of telling the "truly gifted" that not even they cant outsmart nature.

With your ignorant use of a double negative you basiclly said the opposite of what you meant, which was ignorant to start with. Cause we all know only gay people contract AIDS. :coco:
 
If you saw the edit Ryu, I mentioned vice versa. I agree that there is alot of hypocrisy. I also agree religion is (currently) a tool. It's become something it was never meant to be. Then again, I could say the same about other aspects of society. As for that lady, I already mentioned homophobes are in the wrong themselves. As for the War comment.... there have an average of 2.5 wars since the beginning of human history, and I can think of several off-hand that had nothing to do religion. I can also think of a few that did, as well.

I still disagree with humans being 'evolved' apes. Scientists still haven't given me an answer as to why if we 'evolved' from them, why is it they are still not evolving. Better yet, why is it rats and elephants are related. Better yet, why does that 0.3% of DNA means the difference between a 'wild' animal and a sentient being that can reason, invent, create, and even utterly destroy. Like I said before, that deabte involves information I don't feel like digging up. If you can find it, look for a book series involving Detective Zack.

I'm with Negorissimo. Homosexual males are the most unselfish people on the planet. Not only do they remove themselves from the game, leaving more women for the rest of us, they take another brother with them!
 
I'm with Negorissimo. Homosexual males are the most unselfish people on the planet. Not only do they remove themselves from the game, leaving more women for the rest of us, they take another brother with them!

So... by that rational, you don't like lesbians?
 
that was not a double negative it was me rewording and not changing the cant to can. and yes i am aware non-gays can get it too but that is largely in thanks to the gay community.
 
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