Will They Ever Listen?

[Morwen]

In 2001, a little girl the age of 12, commited suicide. No one would normally care about that, aside from the obligatory 'Oh my god, how terrible' or 'Her poor family'. However, a lot of people cared. They cared because of what happened to her.

An oft silent community stood up that day when the morning news came on. When the mid-morning, afternoon and evening news came on. This little girl was a Wiccan, and she was persecuted and abused by her schoolmates. She was ostracized, belittled, beaten and verbally tortured every day by her peers. She went to her school counsellors and was turned away. Saying that she shouldn't try to be so 'outrageous' or 'abnormal', saying that the religion she was raised on was a 'phase' and that she was only 'looking for attention'. She had no one to turn to. A girl her age, even written in her own hand in her journal, couldn't speak to her mother about this. Parents simply do not understand.

Tempest Smith's mother found her hanging in her room that morning before school. The news (local Fox, ABC and NBC stations: 2, 7 and 4 respectively) said it was due to her 'anti-social behavior', quoting classmates calling her 'weird' and 'depressed'. Saying how they tried to let her in but she was so 'negative'. The news stated that she was a devil-worshipper, a satanist. They brough on experts to explain the Wiccan religion. Catholic priests and ministers of other Christian sects. All volunteers from the Pagan Community, and I'm talking people with P.h.D.s, world-reknowned authors and Theologians that sympathize, were denied access.

For two years, two goddamn years, they were denied. One pagan community member in the area got a page 16 article printed in defense of the religion and the Smith's family beliefs. Not in The Detroit News, not in The Detroit Freepress (newspapers you can find in major airports and even foreign countries) but in The News Herald, a localized newspaper covering the major news in 3-4 cities in the Smith's area.

What caused me to post this, was a discussion I have just had with my parents. We were discussing religion (a dangerous subject with a Catholic and a Methodist that got kicked out) and they came upon Wicca/Paganism/Witchcraft/Natrualists/Tree Huggers/Whatever. It ended up coming down to... well, marketing. Do we have movies that are made every year about the Salem Witch Trials or The Spanish Inquisition ("Bring forth the Comfy Chair!" no, really) as many other more popular religions have? No, we've got a fucking shitty three part TV movie on TNT about 'The Mists of Avalon' which was possibly the worst thing ever filmed (I'll get you Ted Turner, I will...). We've got 'Blair Witch', 'Warlock', 'Witches of Eastwick', 'The Wizard of Oz' (throw me a fucking bone here... she's green and has flying monkeys, do you think I would be posting here if I could actually have flying goddamn monkeys?!) and countless other horror films depicting the sacrificing of small children and animals, stealing husbands, murder and pacts with a devil we don't even believe in.

The point was, that we don't have the money to make people listen. When the hell did it take money to make people listen? When the hell did religious persecution become legal (Bill of Rights anyone?)? When the fuck did it become alright to tell people mistruths and lies when there are people in the background hopping up and down, flailing their arms screaming, "NO! Let me educate you! Let me tell you the truth, let me bend your ear for a moment to dispell these misconceptions!"?!

For centuries, all that has happened when we raised a hand and said, "Um... excuse me.." has been slaughter. All that is wanted, wished for and requested, is to be able to practice beliefs in peace without fear of molestation, abuse and persecution. I have not yet seen a religious doctrine of any sort that has said 'Tolerate all, attempt to save but do not push... except for those pesky pagans. Just kill all of those fuckers'. Maybe my thought process is far too Utopian to think that we can all just mind our own fucking business and let people: Do As Ye Will, May It Harm None. The Pagan Community, while proud and educated, is silenced in the ears of many. Silenced by those that would help, silenced by those that should help. Why? When will they listen? What will it take?

Forgive me my rant, but I do know that this board holds many intelligent people. There are only so many circular conversations one can have with their family before wanting to maim people. So, with that, I bring this to you. What do you think? Is this a lost cause? Should they stay silent or raise a huge fucking stink like I kind of want to right now, lol.

 

[exodusamphi]

Well the reason she was shunned was due to media and parenting. Thats pretty clear cut.

As far as tha pagan community... Being a minority in the world and seen by a majority (once again, thank you media) as being weird, I dont think they would even try to do anything. Tolerance is an amazing thing, and sadly I believe that the Pagan community tolerates how the media portrays them, and would rather sit quitely in their own homes. I believe it should be the rest of the world that should tolerate the practices of Paganism, and all other religions. WHY CANT WE ALL BE HAPPY?

 

[Sirjarvis]

hould they stay silent or raise a huge fucking stink like I kind of want to right now, lol.

Raise a huge fucking stink. Don't tolerate bullshit like you mentioned happened to the 12 year old in your post. Minority groups never got their rights by staying silent, they raised their voices so the whole world could hear them.

But I'm not the person that should be giving you advice Wenny, the last christian that told me I was going to hell for being an atheist got introduced to my patented Nutpunch no Jutsu. :biggrin:

 

[exodusamphi]

Raise a huge fucking stink. Don't tolerate bullshit like you mentioned happened to the 12 year old in your post. Minority groups never got their rights by staying silent, they raised their voices so the whole world could hear them.

But I'm not the person that should be giving you advice Wenny, the last christian that told me I was going to hell for being an atheist got introduced to my patented Nutpunch no Jutsu. :biggrin:

Your gion to hell...


sorry had to say it

and apperantly I cant spell

 

[Excim]

I agree that the media is a giant box of bullshit, and most of the people who are intelligent realize this and pay little or no attention to it. Mass media caters to retards. It's that simple. And retards will do what they have been bred to do, react to things that are shoved in front of them.

Although unfairly skewed, I don't think anyone dislikes Wiccans or any other pagans because of this story, or hell, any story we hear from the media. The people who are intelligent are smart enough to know better, and the reactionary retards will forget about it all by tomorrows episode of Ricki Lake.

Now... I do think the Wiccan religion in particular is getting a difficult rep by some of the people who are claiming it as thier own. For instance, a guy who works for my company says he is a Wiccan, and does some pretty crazy things by my standards. Everyday, he takes out a vial of silver powder (real silver, so he says) and sprinkles it into his drinking water. He says it is good for his spirit, although I think medical science shows that too much heavy metal is very bad for you. He also braids his hair into pig tails and he says hello to the trees in the front yard on the way in every morning. HE claims he can control the weather with his mood. He told me the sun is at war with the moon, and you can watch them battle in the very early light of morning. Now, you would think he was crazy, but after talking to him you find he is a very intelligent man, and does his job well. But I do believe it's people like this that are making it more difficult to be accepted in this culture.


Bottom line, everyone resists change. People will mock what they don't understand, even fear it. People aren't going to learn to accept what you do anytime soon, if only because they don't understand. It is a sad reality, but reality nonetheless.

 

[Olivir]

There's no right, there's no wrong, there's only popular opinion!
...
You know what crazy is?? Crazy is majority rules!

Just a quote I find relevant :/

I can't stand the ignorance and hypocrisies that I see in so many people. People will say that God is kind, loving, forgiving...but they leave out the fact that that's only true if you believe in him.
(I have a whole speech in my head that I think about from time to time, but it's more about religion itself than the people that believe it.)

The main problem, I believe, is ignorance and intolerance. People need to educate, but not to obligate...



Argh, I'm sleepy. But I read that, wanted to add my own two cents P:

 

[Romper]

While reading that, it's sad don't get me wrong, all I was thinking was man she's an hero now.

Sad story is sad not too long ago Fox News Chicago did a short report on a Wiccian family and the beliefs. I still think the religion is a little nuts, but what the news did was absolute shit calling a 12 year old girl a satanist. That makes me want to puke at how stupid reporters are.

 

[Morwen]

Well the reason she was shunned was due to media and parenting. Thats pretty clear cut.

As far as tha pagan community... Being a minority in the world and seen by a majority (once again, thank you media) as being weird, I dont think they would even try to do anything. Tolerance is an amazing thing, and sadly I believe that the Pagan community tolerates how the media portrays them, and would rather sit quitely in their own homes. I believe it should be the rest of the world that should tolerate the practices of Paganism, and all other religions. WHY CANT WE ALL BE HAPPY?

I would LOVE to know why we can’t all be happy. Apparently, however, the human mind cannot work properly without drama. We’re kinda sick of drama as a whole >_> We are by no means an organized religion, otherwise there would be a fuckload of people that got kicked the hell out, but there are certain things we all adhere to. That would be not forcing your opinions on others, tolerance and peace. What kind of irks me though about the majority/minority swing…? In its inception, when the followers and priests of Christianity were no longer being slaughtered by the Romans because their lions got too fat (yes, I know, that is not factual) and when they came to the people that followed my religion? They invited the priests into our Sacred Groves and places of Power to be able to learn in peace. To be able to… practice and teach without fear of molestation, abuse and persecution! Two hundred years later? >_> They killed all of our men and matriarchs. Priests and Priestesses, apprentices. The people that LED the pagan communities, leaving nothing but the weak and the scared and folded them in. Why? Because we were evil. It’s not a question of tolerating how the media portrays us. It’s the fact that barely no one will hear us speak. There was a Wiccan man recently, I forget the state, but he won the goddamn lottery. The local media called him ‘satanic’. He tried to rebuke them, to tell them they were wrong? They didn’t say anything on the news, they didn’t issue an apology, nada.

Now... I do think the Wiccan religion in particular is getting a difficult rep by some of the people who are claiming it as thier own. For instance, a guy who works for my company says he is a Wiccan, and does some pretty crazy things by my standards. Everyday, he takes out a vial of silver powder (real silver, so he says) and sprinkles it into his drinking water. He says it is good for his spirit, although I think medical science shows that too much heavy metal is very bad for you. He also braids his hair into pig tails and he says hello to the trees in the front yard on the way in every morning. HE claims he can control the weather with his mood. He told me the sun is at war with the moon, and you can watch them battle in the very early light of morning. Now, you would think he was crazy, but after talking to him you find he is a very intelligent man, and does his job well. But I do believe it's people like this that are making it more difficult to be accepted in this culture.

…What’s it going to save him from? Werewolves? What the hell. The Sun and Moon are at war? Braiding hair? Sounds more like personal ‘fashion’ sense but meh, there isn’t a damn thing I’ve read in my 13 years of practice that says anything about magically knotting your hair, lol. Claiming he can control the weather with his mood… Yes, these are the people that we mostly have to deal with unfortunately. They’re interested only in becoming Storm or Thor, so they associate themselves with the religion and make up fancies as if they were Gods. Them and the poor combination we have walking around of Stevie Nicks and Kelly Osborne. The umpteen broom skirts, kooky jewelry, odd hair and heavy goth makeup. Then there are the people who talk only of ‘White’ and ‘Black’ magic. I’ve met people in my classes that have claimed to be ‘Red Magicians’, so they can practice both sides of ‘The Art’. First of all fucker, put down the Dragonlance series. Its ‘The Craft’ if you want to be cool. If you want to be PC, its ‘Wicca’, if you want to put your balls on the table and call it what it is, its Witchcraft. Yes, we have a lot of yahoos. Everyone does. Look at Islam and Christianity.

I just want to make people see, have them listen. But it always seems like our voice is too silent or that we are far too invisible to do a thing about it.

 

[Lyrai]

I think not only does the media spew out bullshit about these types of things, but that even some people that supposedly practice Wicca or Paganism aren't fully educated about it, thus producing more negative attention by people observing their misinterpretations. Because it's such a small community compared to other religions, there's not going to be such a unified understanding of the practices, or a thorough explanation of the morals and values, let alone how to "worship" like other religions teach to their followers.

Most fanatics also forget their religious roots, and view almost any religion too far outside their own as Paganistic. It's sickening how harsh people of other religions get treated by people who are too close-minded. I appreciate true Wiccans and Pagans, because they worship something more physical, the Earth around us, rather than some god that may or may not exist. Traditionally, they have more of a respect for things nature has given us.

The media also never gives any distinction between the lesser "mainstream" religions. They use terms interchangeably when they're really confusing everything entirely. In the past, most of the people who were dubbed "Wiccan" were in reality, probably Satanists.

It really is an issue of ignorance, and it's probably going to continue until some big figure pops up and clears the air of all the misconceptions; though I don't see that happening anytime soon with the current trends in intolerance.

 

[Grem]

I'm Wiccan, I have every episode of Charmed on DVD so know what it's all about.

I joke, but I know too many girls like that. I'm kinda glad the UK doesn't have extremists like that, heck, we have quite a high number of open druids and witches, the town of Glastonbury especially, it's beautiful to watch the druids up at the Tor or at a Henge doing rituals, they don't mind most of the time if folks watch as it raises awareness n such, they're all incredibly polite, down to earth and intelligent.

I think a good deal of these feelings towards Pagans come from the label 'Pagan' which is often used to describe ANY non-Christian religion in my experience, even heard Satanists branded 'Pagan' before now. The mutilation performed on the title 'Witch' or 'Warlock' or whatever doesn't help either, all that Witches have in their favor from the media is. . . Uhhh. Harry Potter? Shit. Also all the crazy shenanigans going on in Charmed and stuff like that which creates a bias against Pagans. But as I've mentioned, the UK doesn't have too much of a problem with this as we have a LARGE amount of Wiccans, Druids, etc out in the open.

 

[Morwen]

I'm Wiccan, I have every episode of Charmed on DVD so know what it's all about.

I joke, but I know too many girls like that. I'm kinda glad the UK doesn't have extremists like that, heck, we have quite a high number of open druids and witches, the town of Glastonbury especially, it's beautiful to watch the druids up at the Tor or at a Henge doing rituals, they don't mind most of the time if folks watch as it raises awareness n such, they're all incredibly polite, down to earth and intelligent.

I think a good deal of these feelings towards Pagans come from the label 'Pagan' which is often used to describe ANY non-Christian religion in my experience, even heard Satanists branded 'Pagan' before now. The mutilation performed on the title 'Witch' or 'Warlock' or whatever doesn't help either, all that Witches have in their favor from the media is. . . Uhhh. Harry Potter? Shit. Also all the crazy shenanigans going on in Charmed and stuff like that which creates a bias against Pagans. But as I've mentioned, the UK doesn't have too much of a problem with this as we have a LARGE amount of Wiccans, Druids, etc out in the open.

That is true too. 'Listen, I've seen 'The Craft', I know what I'm doing!' .../sigh. The people that make the news are the people that dabble and do shit wrong or go nuts because of it.

I agree with you completely that 'Pagan' is a huge blanket term. There are so many different sects of what we do that its hard to not lump them all together. There have even, in about the last 4 years or so, been a group that just likes to call themselves Pagan. Because their art is so ecclectic and so varied that they don't know what else to do, so they adopted 'Pagan' as their name. They do not worship any sort of diety, only the Earth. ....Natrualists? 'No, we're not them, we do magic'. Naturalists do magic too... 'No they don't' Oh okay, I'll go let Bob know to stop doing magic because he's doing it all wrong. 'NO U'. The fact that we get lumped in with the positive, negative and downright begnin is frustrating for me. If I happen to mention my religion, immediately, because of media coverage and hollywood and what they've been taught: "Oh, so you control demons and worship Satan" -_- You can't help but become extremely cynical sometimes and just be like 'Yes, I paint myself in the blood of unbaptized children and cavort naked with Satan under beech trees.' in the most deadpan voice you can muster. It's tiring, to have to explain to everyone what it is your entire belief structure is about, every time someone finds out.

What you stated about the Druids and Wiccans being able to do what they wanted without fear of doing a thing, people watching and raising awareness... Lol, thats one of the reasons I've wanted to move to the UK, aside from family.

 

[tonicfly]

most people can't seem to look past what has been spoon fed to them all there lives. Im an atheist with no belief really. most of my friends i have believe in the wiccan beliefs. ive always loved how living in the south with all the beliefs in the catholic and christian community are so strong just walking through wal mart in the town we grew up in how much people stare. when was the last time did you see an atheist sect or wiccan sect of people going door to door or standing outside some store trying to force there religion onto other people or try and get them to change there religion to theres just so there church can make more money.

sadly there are the people that will take any religion and twist it out of proportion. no matter what the religious beliefs but when it comes down to it the only people within the negative spotlight is ones that believe in a non christian or catholic religion.

also why does everyone call people satanist that they believe worships the devil and sacrifices animals. i love to read writings beyond the norm and have read the book dubbed "the satanist bible" and really the entire center of the book is based upon that the only higher power one should look to is their own self to make things happen atleast thats my inception of the writings within the book but as we know everything is left to peoples own concepts and beliefs of what is put on papper.

 

[Stine]

It all really boils down to people wanting to force their opinions on others without even listening to the other side of the argument. They get married to like minded people and have kids raised to believe that everyone else who believe differently from them is stupid and should be shunned. Like mentioned before, everyone has their own weirdos in their religious sect. Unfortunately it's the weirdos (especially for us Christians) that seem to be more vocal about it. And sadly, most who are the extremist don't even look at their own religious text to find out if what they are doing is wrong.


Honestly I don't know much about Wicca. I have had friends that practice it and have told me a little bit about it but honestly I can't recall much about it. I know that there are a lot of people who do it "just to be cool" and it saddens me that they don't even try to really learn about it. I would like to learn more about it though.

 

[Zephayra]

No, we've got a fucking shitty three part TV movie on TNT about 'The Mists of Avalon' which was possibly the worst thing ever filmed (I'll get you Ted Turner, I will...)

Aw, I liked that movie. I think the worst three-part-made-for-TV movie that focuses around witches was Salem Witch Trials or whatever it was called with Kristie Ally in it that came out maybe 3 or so years ago.

With that being said, I think the bigger problems for pagans and wiccans is that any books/movies that are fictional and written usually for children, or filmed for children in mind, are constantly under attack by Catholics and Christians alike. As mentioned before there was the whole issue surrounding Harry Potter, and now The Golden Compass is getting its fair share (I've never read the books but heard about the kerfluffal on the radio). So even when magic based/nature based movies/books that are created with positive imagery of paganism are still under attack, let alone the ones which portray it was something evil, and all witches have warts on their noses and missing teeth. Maybe Pagans and Wiccans should start boycotting movies based about the Christian faith. I kid...

A lot of media has been put out by Wiccan and Pagan authors. I know most pagans may groan, but Silver Ravenwolf has some pretty good literature out that I think if most people could read, they wouldn't be so ready to bring out the pitchforks and torches for another mob attack.

 

[Pasquale]

No, we've got a fucking shitty three part TV movie on TNT about 'The Mists of Avalon' which was possibly the worst thing ever filmed

Elephant was the worst thing ever filmed.

Religion is tricky. People associate certain things with certain religions and that's pretty much it. No one bothers to learn more about any other aspect of that religion. Scientology = crazy. Mormon = polygamy. People hear things like that all the time, and that's all they know.

While I don't think raising a stink is the best way to go, I don't think silence is a good idea either. They have to find ways to accurately portray themselves while spreading awareness. It'll probably be a long time before anything changes, if anything happens at all.

 

[Alyada]

And this is why, kids, organized religion (of any kind) is BAD.

 

[Tagrineth]

MORWENNY, YOU ARE A BLACK MAGE AND WICCAN THEREFORE YOU MUST BE EVIL AND SATANIST.

FOR SHAME!



nah, I kid. Raise some hell, go for it. =) (ha, get it?)

 

[Morwen]

It all really boils down to people wanting to force their opinions on others without even listening to the other side of the argument. They get married to like minded people and have kids raised to believe that everyone else who believe differently from them is stupid and should be shunned. Like mentioned before, everyone has their own weirdos in their religious sect. Unfortunately it's the weirdos (especially for us Christians) that seem to be more vocal about it. And sadly, most who are the extremist don't even look at their own religious text to find out if what they are doing is wrong.

Honestly I don't know much about Wicca. I have had friends that practice it and have told me a little bit about it but honestly I can't recall much about it. I know that there are a lot of people who do it "just to be cool" and it saddens me that they don't even try to really learn about it. I would like to learn more about it though.

I’m all about personal opinion, I think that’s fantastic. But, raising your children and allowing yourself to be lead by fallacies is just preposterous. I’ve spoken to quite a few groups and a lot of people one on one about the Wiccan Path and afterwards, when they know that I speak the truth and what I say is in earnest, the typical reaction is: Wow, I had no idea. I was always told that you’re all evil and sacrifice animals! I’m not afraid to be the one to speak out, I never have been. Through years of threats, violence and intolerance; I still go forward. Why the hell can’t anyone else? I’m sick of being dogged on when someone finds out. I’m sick of people that refuse to listen to even a simple, quick explanation. I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired, and so are the people around me that follow my same beliefs or even go on a vaguely similar path. The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster gets more of a voice than we do, and if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty, we’ve been around longer than the Christians have!

To the bolded above, madam I wish some were so thoguhtful. People either pretend to listen while still believing that the devil himself stands before them in human form, turn into a raving, hillbilly good ol' boy and fetch their biggest piece of wood to tie me to or actually open their ears/heart/mind and take in what you tell them. Learn, discover, question and feel free to be as curious as you like. We always, always welcome questions. Some may not be so trusting, as the static we have gotten is likened to the height and breadth of Mount Kilimanjaro, but should you just try; we will listen. I wish that others would be so considerate as you, Stine.

With that being said, I think the bigger problems for pagans and wiccans is that any books/movies that are fictional and written usually for children, or filmed for children in mind, are constantly under attack by Catholics and Christians alike. As mentioned before there was the whole issue surrounding Harry Potter, and now The Golden Compass is getting its fair share (I've never read the books but heard about the kerfluffal on the radio). So even when magic based/nature based movies/books that are created with positive imagery of paganism are still under attack, let alone the ones which portray it was something evil, and all witches have warts on their noses and missing teeth. Maybe Pagans and Wiccans should start boycotting movies based about the Christian faith. I kid...

A lot of media has been put out by Wiccan and Pagan authors. I know most pagans may groan, but Silver Ravenwolf has some pretty good literature out that I think if most people could read, they wouldn't be so ready to bring out the pitchforks and torches for another mob attack.

That’s what I don’t understand. Works of fiction made to be evil just because of the slight hint of magic or difference. It boggles the mind when ever I see some idiot like the people I see around here picketing Barnes & Nobles because they carried the first Harry Potter book. Give me a friggin’ break. The Golden Compass? Well, from my understanding (I did not hear the authors direct quote), the author stated that in summary “It’s about two kids who kill God”. Good job buddy, good job.

I agree. I’m not sure what some of the Community has such a problem with Ravenwolf for. ‘To Ride A Silver Broomstick’ was the first book I ever read. It was simple enough (being that it was a damn beginners book >_> ) to understand and the casual way in which she wrote really spoke to those I know that also read it. Another good author (and I doubt we’d ever hear a bad thing said about him) was Scott Cunningham. ‘Living Wicca’ was his ‘beginner’s guide’ and it seriously rocked socks. That is one of the first books I recommend for beginners and even for parents or people that wish to simply understand what it is that we do.

nah, I kid. Raise some hell, go for it. =) (ha, get it?)

Rofl, nice.

 

[Lanien]

Most people fear what they don't know. The one thing I learned at college being a Communication major is that one voice really can make a difference. Time and time again, one person on the air says something and major changes or chaos ensues. Whether it is Walter Kronkite condemning the war in Vietnam or Amus calling the Rutgers female basketball team a bunch of nappy headed hoes, media is always the source of these confusions over the general populace. It always used to be that media was the voice of the people, but it has turned into an outlet for mass hysteria.

 

[Morwen]

Most people fear what they don't know. The one thing I learned at college being a Communication major is that one voice really can make a difference. Time and time again, one person on the air says something and major changes or chaos ensues. Whether it is Walter Kronkite condemning the war in Vietnam or Amus calling the Rutgers female basketball team a bunch of nappy headed hoes, media is always the source of these confusions over the general populace. It always used to be that media was the voice of the people, but it has turned into an outlet for mass hysteria.

I completely understand fearing something you don't understand. But, wouldn't it make sense to attempt to get to know what it is you're afraid of? Know thy enemy, sort of thing? Hold your friends close, but your enemies closer? The media (and I'm quite aware that its not the same everywhere, but its pretty damn similar) doesn't seem to want to listen to educators. When I was in high school and people were ...reacting in the exact way they shouldn't, to the introduction to a different religion; no one wanted to listen. There have been countless reactions here and many other cities like mine and the Smith's that just keep pushing until you eventually just leave.

I realize that we need a standard, and we need a representative, but who is that going to be? Rev. Jesse Jackson is taken, so is Rev. Al Sharpton. Who do we get? That guy that works with Excim? No thank you. How does one pierce the media front in America without flashing your vagoo or having a nip slip on the red carpet. I suppose I could murder someone but I don't feel like calling Ms. Butch America 2008, "Momma". The more I talk about this the more ridiculous and fruitless it seems.