World History: Europe, Asia, and NA

That's precisely what US didn't want.

That's precisely what nobody should have wanted. WW2 Era Russia wasn't a cripple like it was later in the century. It was pretty much a stroke of luck they were in the middle of a civil war as well, otherwise the US probably wouldn't have made it in time in the first place.
 
America used a A-bomb to end a long drawn out war, anyone that thinks the Axis powers wouldnt have done the same thing to London or New York are frankly dreaming. Its war, people get killied.
 
It was also as it was mentioned before, due to the mentality of their opponent. Also I believe even the Americans were shocked at just how much destruction those bombs could cause. I don't think anyone had considered fallout from radiation either.


EDIT: As the French say, "We surrender".
 
It was also as it was mentioned before, due to the mentality of their opponent. Also I believe even the Americans were shocked at just how much destruction those bombs could cause. I don't think anyone had considered fallout from radiation either.


EDIT: As the French say, "We surrender".

The Americans who tested the first atomic weapon at Trinity knew the destruction, and had a solid estimate of casualties prior to dropping "Fat Man" and "Little Boy". They had an idea of the fallout, just not the fullest extent (most of the researchers and military personnel were out wearing only paper shoe-coverings after the first test).
 
Well, it would have been quite hard to test long lasting effects considering the situation - or period, to an extent. We can now due to the passage of time, but back then they were pressed for time. It is by no means an easy choice to make, since people will die regardless. I guess it was the lesser of two evils, in a sense.
 
That's the way that Harry Truman (US President at the time of the A-Bomb's use) looked at it; the lesser of two evils.

There was a very interesting op-ed written in a local counter-culture news magazine comparing the acts of Al-Qaeda et al recently with the actions of the Allied Forces in WWII. I'll post it up when I get home this evening. I disagree with the author in that the Allied Forces' actions being acts of terrorism, but his points establishing it as such are interesting, to say the least.
 
Re: United States involvement in WWI & WWII.

A key fact glossed over by irate Europeans who castigate the US for showing up "late" to two world wars is this: We didn't have to get involved. In WWI, we were in no binding treaties with European powers that would require us to do so. In fact, most of the war planning between the end of the Civil War and the beginning of WWI had been, on both sides, the prospect of a war between a western European power (probably Great Britain) and the US. We never really expected you'd all go completely apeshit and start invading each other and invoking secret defense treaties.

Now, the second World War was a slightly different situation. Again, we were under no binding obligation to get involved. We didn't especially like Germany, after we went to war with them in WWI, but by itself that wasn't enough to drag the US into the war as an active participant. Realistically, we could have done business with Germany the same as anyone else, and invading the United States is something that would factor in the nightmares of any strategic planner.

How much did we help in either war? In WWI, it was the Americans that finally allowed for the final pushes to accelerate a war that would probably have ended in an Allied victory regardless, just likely some years later, and probably with greater overall loss of life. In WWII... Stalin is quoted as saying that the only reason the USSR survived long enough to retool and fight back, was because of the convoys sent to support them, almost entirely from the United States. It's also entirely possible that Britain would have fallen without the Lend-Lease program. It was a staggering contribution to the war effort, and one that, despite it's name, was basically a gift. Repayment plans were something along the lines of 1/10th the value of the materials, and even most of that was functionally written off.

We can leave the Marshall Plan out of this for the moment, but ultimately I assume you get the idea. If we'd never so much as sent a single soldier over, we'd have had an extremely significant role in the Allied victory.

Now, dropping the bomb...

Dropping the bomb(s) probably saved Japan. A conventional reduction of Japanese cities and industry, a conventional invasion to follow on, and so forth, would have had two major effects: First, it would have been vastly more devastating and with an incredibly greater loss of life. Second, it would have allowed the Soviets time to get involved. While the US policy towards Japan in the immediate post-war period wasn't particularly beneficial, neither was it punitive, which was the Soviet stance towards any territory that fell under its control. When the Korean War rolled around, the US pumped vast amounts of money into the Japanese economy, largely as a forward industrial base. Sure, it wasn't nearly as altruistic as the Marshall Plan, but it was also actually more effective.
 
Re: United States involvement in WWI & WWII.

A key fact glossed over by irate Europeans who castigate the US for showing up "late" to two world wars is this: We didn't have to get involved. In WWI, we were in no binding treaties with European powers that would require us to do so. In fact, most of the war planning between the end of the Civil War and the beginning of WWI had been, on both sides, the prospect of a war between a western European power (probably Great Britain) and the US. We never really expected you'd all go completely apeshit and start invading each other and invoking secret defense treaties.

Now, the second World War was a slightly different situation. Again, we were under no binding obligation to get involved. We didn't especially like Germany, after we went to war with them in WWI, but by itself that wasn't enough to drag the US into the war as an active participant. Realistically, we could have done business with Germany the same as anyone else, and invading the United States is something that would factor in the nightmares of any strategic planner.

How much did we help in either war? In WWI, it was the Americans that finally allowed for the final pushes to accelerate a war that would probably have ended in an Allied victory regardless, just likely some years later, and probably with greater overall loss of life. In WWII... Stalin is quoted as saying that the only reason the USSR survived long enough to retool and fight back, was because of the convoys sent to support them, almost entirely from the United States. It's also entirely possible that Britain would have fallen without the Lend-Lease program. It was a staggering contribution to the war effort, and one that, despite it's name, was basically a gift. Repayment plans were something along the lines of 1/10th the value of the materials, and even most of that was functionally written off.

We can leave the Marshall Plan out of this for the moment, but ultimately I assume you get the idea. If we'd never so much as sent a single soldier over, we'd have had an extremely significant role in the Allied victory.

Now, dropping the bomb...

Dropping the bomb(s) probably saved Japan. A conventional reduction of Japanese cities and industry, a conventional invasion to follow on, and so forth, would have had two major effects: First, it would have been vastly more devastating and with an incredibly greater loss of life. Second, it would have allowed the Soviets time to get involved. While the US policy towards Japan in the immediate post-war period wasn't particularly beneficial, neither was it punitive, which was the Soviet stance towards any territory that fell under its control. When the Korean War rolled around, the US pumped vast amounts of money into the Japanese economy, largely as a forward industrial base. Sure, it wasn't nearly as altruistic as the Marshall Plan, but it was also actually more effective.

I think what most Europeans hate is how some Americans (not all) act like America was the only one to do anything of use in the war. They like to just go "LOL WE WONZ TEH WAR YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHINGZ" which is a huge insult to those who fought and died for our countries. We are grateful for the help of course but to try and claim that everything was done by the USA is an insult.

Edit - Also Germany would never of invaded whilst the RAF still stood. Go go wooden Hurricanes ftw.
 
We are grateful for the help of course but to try and claim that everything was done by the USA is an insult.
Sadly that isn't the attitude we usually get even when talking about WWII. Then you have brain dead idiots like Pchan who have no clue what they're talking about just proving how stupid they really are. Hence why we start adopting the attitude you hate so much; uncivil treatment begets our uncivilized responses.
 
Sadly that isn't the attitude we usually get even when talking about WWII. Then you have brain dead idiots like Pchan who have no clue what they're talking about just proving how stupid they really are. Hence why we start adopting the attitude you hate so much; uncivil treatment begets our uncivilized responses.

I agree it's a vicious circle. People like Pchan just shouldn't post though.

As much as I dislike the current US government there's far too many "LOLZ I HATEZ TEH AMERIKINZ COZ ITZ KOOL" people around.
 
I agree it's a vicious circle. People like Pchan just shouldn't post though.

As much as I dislike the current US government there's far too many "LOLZ I HATEZ TEH AMERIKINZ COZ ITZ KOOL" people around.

What if they offer you a free bumper sticker or lil badge?
 
THE HOLOCAUST DIDNT HAPPEN.
 
The only thing I have to add is a reputation comment I made. The European grit in fighting the formidable German Machine, when resources were tight and everyone struggled -- from scientists cracking the enigma, to young men on the lines, and women in the factories, is simply amazing.

The Marshall Plan was excellent for 3 reasons: European Economic growth, and therefore direct American economy growth. More sinister, but effective as a stopgap measure, is it prevented countries like Italy from falling under communist regimes. Cue the slow lead up to the Cold War.

The war was won by everyone. Sadly, no lessons have been retained bar one (maybe). No nukes.
 
The only thing I have to add is a reputation comment I made. The European grit in fighting the formidable German Machine, when resources were tight and everyone struggled -- from scientists cracking the enigma, to young men on the lines, and women in the factories, is simply amazing.

Hearing stories about the Blitz and the rationing and children being sent to the countryside where it was safer. I really don't know how we coped.(I'm not really well read on the civilian side of life during WWII in another nation)
 
Grave Of The Fireflies (Hotaru no haka) gives a good impression of what is was like on the other side (so to speak).
 
Grave Of The Fireflies (Hotaru no haka) gives a good impression of what is was like on the other side (so to speak).

1. They attacked first.

2. They refused to surrender.

Wikipedia said:
Unit 731 was based in the Pingfang district of the city of Harbin in the puppet state of Manchukuo.

More than ten thousand people,[1] from which around 600 every year were provided by the kempeitai,[2] were subjects of the experimentation conducted by Unit 731. These were both civilian and military of Chinese, Korean, Mongolian, and Russian origin as well as some Japanese criminals from Japanese mainlands. Some American and European Allied prisoners of war also died at the hands of Unit 731.[3] In addition, the use of biological weapons researched in Unit 731's bioweapons and chemical weapons programs resulted in tens of thousands of military and civilian deaths in China – possibly as many as 200,000 casualties by some estimates.[4]
Unit 731 was the headquarters of many subsidiary units used by the Japanese to research biological warfare; other units included Unit 516 (Qiqihar), Unit 543 (Hailar), Unit 773 (Songo unit), Unit 100 (Changchun), Unit Ei 1644 (Nanjing), Unit 1855 (Beijing), Unit 8604 (Guangzhou), Unit 200 (Manchuria) and Unit 9420 (Singapore).
Many of the scientists involved in Unit 731 went on to prominent careers in post-war politics, academia, business, and medicine. Some were arrested by Soviet forces and tried at the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials; others, who surrendered to the Americans, were granted amnesty in exchange for access to the data collected by them.[5] On 6 May 1947, Douglas MacArthur, as Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, wrote to Washington that "additional data, possibly some statements from Ishii probably can be obtained by informing Japanese involved that information will be retained in intelligence channels and will not be employed as 'War Crimes' evidence." [6] The deal was concluded in 1948.
Because of their brutality, Unit 731's actions have now been declared by the United Nations to have been crimes against humanity.

Vivisection


  • Prisoners of war were subjected to vivisection without anesthesia. [12][10]
  • Vivisections were performed on prisoners after infecting them with various diseases. Scientists performed invasive surgery on prisoners, removing organs to study the effects of disease on the human body. These were conducted while the patients were alive because it was feared that the decomposition process would affect the results.[13][10] The infected and vivisected prisoners included men, women, children, and infants.[14]
  • Vivisections were also performed on pregnant women, sometimes impregnated by doctors, and the fetus removed.[15]
  • Prisoners had limbs amputated in order to study blood loss.[10]
  • Those limbs that were removed were sometimes re-attached to the opposite sides of the body.[10]
  • Some prisoners' limbs were frozen and amputated, while others had limbs frozen then thawed to study the effects of the resultant untreated gangrene and rotting.
  • Some prisoners had their stomachs surgically removed and the esophagus reattached to the intestines.[10]
  • Parts of the brain, lungs, liver, etc. were removed from some prisoners.[16][12][10]
In 2007, Doctor Ken Yuasa testified to the Japan Times that "I was afraid during my first vivisection, but the second time around, it was much easier. By the third time, I was willing to do it." He believes at least 1,000 persons, including surgeons, were involved in vivisections over mainland China. [17]

[edit] Weapons testing



[edit] Germ warfare attacks


  • Prisoners were injected with inoculations of disease, disguised as vaccinations, to study their effects. [10]
  • Plague fleas, infected clothing, and infected supplies encased in bombs were dropped on various targets. The resulting cholera, anthrax, and plague were estimated to have killed around 200,000 Chinese civilians.[10]
  • Tularemia was tested on Chinese civilians. [18]
  • Unit 731 and its affiliated units (Unit 1644, Unit 100, et cetera) were actively involved not only in research and development, but also in experimental deployment of epidemic-creating biowarfare weapons in assaults against the Chinese populace (both civilian and military) throughout World War II. Plague-infested fleas, bred in the laboratories of Unit 731 and Unit 1644, were spread by low-flying airplanes upon Chinese cities, coastal Ningbo in 1940, and Changde, Hunan Province, in 1941. This military aerial spraying killed thousands of people with bubonic plague epidemics. [19]

...and let's not forget the Rape of Nanking.

Yeah, Pearl Harbor pales in comparison to all that crap.

While I admire Japan as a nation now, (and while, yes, Grave of the Fireflies was a tearjerker) I don't feel one iota of sympathy for either the systematic firebombing we did at the end of the war, or the two nukes we dropped.

They brought it upon themselves.
 
Don't forget the fact they never surrendered, they 'stopped fighting and put down their arms'.
 
1. They attacked first.

2. They refused to surrender.



...and let's not forget the Rape of Nanking.

Yeah, Pearl Harbor pales in comparison to all that crap.

While I admire Japan as a nation now, (and while, yes, Grave of the Fireflies was a tearjerker) I don't feel one iota of sympathy for either the systematic firebombing we did at the end of the war, or the two nukes we dropped.

They brought it upon themselves.

didn’t really post the movie title to gain sympathy for Japan as a nation… just pointing out that regardless of who starts/finishes a war the actions taken result in innocent civilians get screwed.
 
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