Would Voke break PLD?

[Firestreak]

No tank in the game can hold hate on my BLM if I don't hold back. I usually just stoneskin, phalanx, blink and help out by absorbing some of the damage away knowing a big nuke will take hate.

And yeah, double attack isn't going to out TP dual wield, not by a long shot.

 

[Reishu]

experience party noobs make things hell for everyone. if PLD got their own voke, it should be meritable, perhaps as an ability, perhaps as a big overall enmity increase.

a new voke ability for pld is an endgame concern, nothing else.

 

[Eulore]

No tank in the game can hold hate on my BLM if I don't hold back. I usually just stoneskin, phalanx, blink and help out by absorbing some of the damage away knowing a big nuke will take hate.

And yeah, double attack isn't going to out TP dual wield, not by a long shot.

After a few minutes of hate building and SATAs, most tanks should be able to hold hate off BLMs, unless the BLM is chain nuking which is a waste of MP and going to end up in a dead taru obviously, but that's not really holding back for only hate purposes.

Double attack alone isn't going to out TP dual wield, but double attack and shield mastery might. I know I gain crazy TP whenever I actually exp on pld with joyeuse and capped shield.

experience party noobs make things hell for everyone. if PLD got their own voke, it should be meritable, perhaps as an ability, perhaps as a big overall enmity increase.

a new voke ability for pld is an endgame concern, nothing else.

Agreed. I was really hoping they'd make pld be able to merit something with either enmity+ or physical damage taken -% not chivalry with 20 minute recast and 3 other useless abilities.

 

[Firestreak]

After a few minutes of hate building and SATAs, most tanks should be able to hold hate off BLMs, unless the BLM is chain nuking which is a waste of MP and going to end up in a dead taru obviously, but that's not really holding back for only hate purposes.

Double attack alone isn't going to out TP dual wield, but double attack and shield mastery might. I know I gain crazy TP whenever I actually exp on pld with joyeuse and capped shield.



Agreed. I was really hoping they'd make pld be able to merit something with either enmity+ or physical damage taken -% not chivalry with 20 minute recast and 3 other useless abilities.

First off, Try duel wielding joy and a justice sword.

Second off, any tank can hold off stray nukes with minutes of building hate. I'm talking about, i've been standing there doing nothing for 30 seconds, I cast blizzard 4, I get hate 90% of the time, follow up with a thunder 4, 100%..

And don't talk about chain nuking as MP ineffectient. Chain nuking as effecient as hell, allowing me to rest for consecutive gaps. Inefficient is a tick here and a tick here til I dry up far short of potential generated damage.

 

[Eulore]

First off, Try duel wielding joy and a justice sword.

Second off, any tank can hold off stray nukes with minutes of building hate. I'm talking about, i've been standing there doing nothing for 30 seconds, I cast blizzard 4, I get hate 90% of the time, follow up with a thunder 4, 100%..

And don't talk about chain nuking as MP ineffectient. Chain nuking as effecient as hell, allowing me to rest for consecutive gaps. Inefficient is a tick here and a tick here til I dry up far short of potential generated damage.

Whatever you win I bow to your infinite knowledge on all things.

 

[Firestreak]

I don't claim to have infinite knowledge but I have seen paladins try to DD in merit settings and could easily see what worked and didn't.

(I haven't tried myself because when I DD I do it as Ninja, but have seen it done.)

Just ask people who try and DD Pld in party which sub they use.

 

[Stouter]

meh kinda but dual weild is 100% Double attack doesnt happen all the time like dual wield isnt the tp only lowerd by 1 or .5? oh w/e u get my point, if double attack had higher proc. rate i could understand... and DW2 -15% delay too so a little bit faster swing

Double Attack isn't 100%, but neither is your accuracy. You can't count on hitting TP in x amount of swings no matter what, you can only get averages.

Say you have one 264 delay sword, that gives you 7.0 TP/hit. Add in another 264 delay sword with DW2 and you're getting 6.0 TP/hit. Toss a Suppa onto that and you're at 5.7 TP/hit

In the time you would swing that single sword 100 times, you would double swing for ~118 total swings, or 125 total swings with Suppa. 100 swings x 7.0 = 700.0 TP, 118 swings x 6.0 TP = 708.0 TP, 125 swings x 5.7 = 712.5 TP. Double Attack is 10%, meaning you'll get 770 instead of that 700 on average, which is considerably more than 708 from DW2 or 712.5 from DW2+Suppa.

There is no huge TP gain from Dual Wield until you get your delay so insanely low that you break the old TP floor. DW3 is where it starts to get powerful, and DW4 + enhancements (2 of which are ninja only) are when Dual Wield becomes overpowered.

Not always, when you're dual wielding 2 double attack sword you'd gain TP insanely quick and do a lot of DPS, but with shield mastery it would be close either way.

Who swings 2 multi-hit weapons? In any event, you can't swing two equal multi-hit weapons, so one would be gimping the speed of the other. We're talking TP build for PLD, and tanking. That leaves Joyeuse, Merc Kris, and K Club. Why would you dual wield a combination of these weapons, and wouldn't having them both equipped defeat the purpose of it? (I'm assuming either for damage in which case lol, or for TP build, in which case you would get faster TP build by single weilding the faster of the two, if it's for TP build for spirits, do you really want to feed that much TP to a mob that is rough enough that you need to use Spirits over another ws?)

I've never gone up against a nin/drk except for on a sky god as pld/war and held more hate than them, but that's a different story.

Nin/drk vs Pld/nin, blink tanking who has more hate? No fair comparing vs a nin/war, or as pld/war.

 

[Firestreak]

Isn't accuracy a useless part of the TP comparison considering your second swing will miss just as often as your double attack?

 

[Stouter]

And don't talk about chain nuking as MP ineffectient. Chain nuking as effecient as hell, allowing me to rest for consecutive gaps. Inefficient is a tick here and a tick here til I dry up far short of potential generated damage.

Chain nuking is the most efficeint use of MP. When it takes 15 seconds to recover your first tick of MP for 40 MP, then another 10 second for 42, 10 more for 44, 10 more for 46, etc then it's more efficient to use all your MP then rest to full, rather than stagger resting. For those that don't understand clear mind/resting MP, this is what Fire meant.

 

[Stouter]

Isn't accuracy a useless part of the TP comparison considering your second swing will miss just as often as your double attack?

Exactly the same as with Double Attack. You can't count on it firing every 10th swing, just like you can't count on hitting 9 out of every 10 swings when you have 90% accuracy. You only have averages, and overall DA > DW for TP gain unless you're under the old TP floor.

 

[Eulore]

Who swings 2 multi-hit weapons? In any event, you can't swing two equal multi-hit weapons, so one would be gimping the speed of the other. We're talking TP build for PLD, and tanking. That leaves Joyeuse, Merc Kris, and K Club. Why would you dual wield a combination of these weapons, and wouldn't having them both equipped defeat the purpose of it? (I'm assuming either for damage in which case lol, or for TP build, in which case you would get faster TP build by single weilding the faster of the two, if it's for TP build for spirits, do you really want to feed that much TP to a mob that is rough enough that you need to use Spirits over another ws?)

Firestreak was talking about justice sword and joyeuse dual wielded which is 2 multi-hit weapons.

Nin/drk vs Pld/nin, blink tanking who has more hate? No fair comparing vs a nin/war, or as pld/war.

I just said I've never gone against a nin/drk as pld/nin.

Learn to fucking read, jeez.

And about the chain nuking thing, sure it's most MP efficient, but when you're eatting dirt after 2 nukes because you didn't wait for hate to be solid then you're being unefficient and have to get unweakened and then rest up all that MP. No amount of hate tools or enmity increases are going to let you chain nuke down to 0 mp after 30 seconds.

 

[Darklion]

Would Convert break WHM?

 

[K. Ishitar]

Would Convert break WHM?

that screams for the mob to kill the whm imagine having to heal yourself or have others do it after you have great amounts of hate

= death

 

[Firestreak]

I'd just cure 5 myself.

 

[Trippyhippy]

No tank in the game can hold hate on my BLM if I don't hold back. I usually just stoneskin, phalanx, blink and help out by absorbing some of the damage away knowing a big nuke will take hate.

And yeah, double attack isn't going to out TP dual wield, not by a long shot.

In a party with a ninja and no TA, any blm worth his salt can take hate with 1 nuke 50% into the mobs HP.

If you are going all out, you can take hate from a pld with 2 nukes. Unless the pld is going all out. If a pld wants hate, he'll take it from you without the use of his sub if need be.

I was trying to illustrate the difference in nuking with the different tanks, you were trying to illustrate how much of a badass blm you are. /clap

 

[Skaw]

Also, to the whole Dual Wield > Double Attack thing. 10% Dual Wield is static, yes. 10% Double Attack is random, yes. Over time though, they're the same thing(In regards to the number of attacks you can perform.) Due to Double Attack being random, it can be better than Dual Wield one fight, and worse the next. Ofcourse, basing things on individual fights is a really retarded way to pass judgment. In the long run, they're equal in this regard. As long as the values are equal, that is.

 

[Eulore]

Also, to the whole Dual Wield > Double Attack thing. 10% Dual Wield is static, yes. 10% Double Attack is random, yes. Over time though, they're the same thing(In regards to the number of attacks you can perform.) Due to Double Attack being random, it can be better than Dual Wield one fight, and worse the next. Ofcourse, basing things on individual fights is a really retarded way to pass judgment. In the long run, they're equal in this regard. As long as the values are equal, that is.

But with double attack you're subbing war and you get berserk, attack bonus, and warcry.

 

[Skaw]

But with double attack you're subbing war and you get berserk, attack bonus, and warcry.

Yeah, but the arguement was about TP gain, not damage dealt.

Also, forgot to add that Haste with a higher delay(no dual wield) is a lot more potent than haste with a lower delay, so theres also that factor to toss around.

 

[Stouter]

Firestreak was talking about justice sword and joyeuse dual wielded which is 2 multi-hit weapons.

If Joyeuse is DA +50% then you would DA 60% as /war, if they are seperate and don't stack (well known that they don't stack) then you would only get 55%.

Virtue weapons attacking twice stacks with DA, meaning you can get 4 swings per round. I think they proc 50% of the time and the figures reflect those numbers, but I'm not sure.

Joyeuse alone - 224 Delay, 6.0 TP/hit
2.41 TP/sec solo without DA
2.49 TP/sec solo with /war using 55% DA theory
2.57 TP/sec solo with /war using 60% DA theory

Justice Sword alone - 236 Delay, 6.3 TP/hit
2.40 TP/sec solo without DA
2.64 TP/sec solo with /war

Joyeuse + Justice Sword + DW2 - Delay double swing, 5.3 TP/hit
2.44 TP/sec

Joyeuse + Justice Sword + DW2 + Suppa - 368 Delay double swing, 5.0 TP/hit
2.45 TP/sec

Justice Sword solo wins for TP gain.

I just said I've never gone against a nin/drk as pld/nin.

Learn to fucking read, jeez.

I read what you wrote, you answered something completely off the subject, learn to fucking follow the discussion, jeez.

And about the chain nuking thing, sure it's most MP efficient, but when you're eatting dirt after 2 nukes because you didn't wait for hate to be solid then you're being unefficient and have to get unweakened and then rest up all that MP. No amount of hate tools or enmity increases are going to let you chain nuke down to 0 mp after 30 seconds.

After a few minutes of hate building and SATAs, most tanks should be able to hold hate off BLMs, unless the BLM is chain nuking which is a waste of MP and going to end up in a dead taru obviously, but that's not really holding back for only hate purposes.

The sole reason blms don't chain nuke is due to hate, which is the opposite of what you first said on the subject.

 

[Firestreak]

In a party with a ninja and no TA, any blm worth his salt can take hate with 1 nuke 50% into the mobs HP.

If you are going all out, you can take hate from a pld with 2 nukes. Unless the pld is going all out. If a pld wants hate, he'll take it from you without the use of his sub if need be.

I was trying to illustrate the difference in nuking with the different tanks, you were trying to illustrate how much of a badass blm you are. /clap

I'm not trying to brag, I'm trying to put the value of hate in perspective. Trying to make the assumption hate can always be held easily is an incorrect statement which can negatively influence gear choices of tanks who may shift priorities.