WTB: Screenshot from Cokken

Sculli said:
My point is that we all look at things from our own frame of reference. If we keep doing that, we will never able to understand where the other person is coming from. Read again, understand, not agree with their position, but truly understand their position.

Yeah, fine, let's look at it from Lowping's perspective. Let's set ourselves at the 'frame of reference' of a person (the majority of gil sellers) who bot, MPK heavily and with abandon before the patch, and farms/monopolizes/etc 24hours a day, 7days a week in effort to have ever more gil.

Sorry, but from that perspective I can't feel sorry for them getting scammed. Want me to go into a sob story about how Mr. Ping plays so ruthlessly just to feed his 8 starving children? Hah, I think not.

I remember back in the day, when people cried for revenge! against the gil sellers. "MPK them back!" they'd yell. "Screw them over!" Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war.

Eh, now we don't care so much?

Honestly, had this happened involving anyone other than someone I knew personally, I swear to you that I could not possibly care less. I live in my own little world, and it's a lot more fun than being out in this one.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Think it was wrong? Peachy, but that doesn't change the fact it was done. Getting all upset over game data won't go back in time and drop that Errant Cape for 200k (which is, by the way, the funniest thing I've heard all week).
 
Sindarkus said:
Yeah, fine, let's look at it from Lowping's perspective. Let's set ourselves at the 'frame of reference' of a person (the majority of gil sellers) who bot, MPK heavily and with abandon before the patch, and farms/monopolizes/etc 24hours a day, 7days a week in effort to have ever more gil.

Sorry, but from that perspective I can't feel sorry for them getting scammed. Want me to go into a sob story about how Mr. Ping plays so ruthlessly just to feed his 8 starving children? Hah, I think not.

I remember back in the day, when people cried for revenge! against the gil sellers. "MPK them back!" they'd yell. "Screw them over!" Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war.

Eh, now we don't care so much?

Honestly, had this happened involving anyone other than someone I knew personally, I swear to you that I could not possibly care less. I live in my own little world, and it's a lot more fun than being out in this one.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Think it was wrong? Peachy, but that doesn't change the fact it was done. Getting all upset over game data won't go back in time and drop that Errant Cape for 200k (which is, by the way, the funniest thing I've heard all week).

To be fair the actual arguement was "he's poor and his culture doesn't see selling in the negative light ours does, so that makes it ok for him to do what he does and makes the scammer a bad bad man."

Now .. i want to understand what makes you moral orals so hyped on trashing the scam while not addressing the fact that being a seller means practiced moral ambiguity when it comes to in game ethics?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? or ss that just inconvinient enough to screw up your whole arguement?
 
Sculli said:
1. Cute, but unnecessary. It comes down to the purpose of an argument. There are essentially three types of people who argue.
  1. Attention whores.
  2. Fighters.
  3. Reformers.

People who actually care about the subject in question also argue.

Putting a name on a speculated person who may have lost a "job" is ridiculous to the argument.

I checked your earlier responses to my points, Sculli, and found them lacking.

(I'll use the numbering you decided to add to my argument for your convenience)

I stand by "my" point 1: the problem with RMT is not that it puts gil in the hands of people who didn't earn it. That is an annoyance. The problem is still "my" point 3: there is an economy that you have to buy your way into.

Part of that economy is the monopoly on specific nm drops, such as the O.kote. You are wrong to believe that if these were not monopolized, then the prices would be as high anyway. True, real players would camp and sell them, but real players also do other things. Real players log off and sleep (or go Away and sleep). Real players camping would create a chance for other real players to camp as well, without fighting highly specific claim-training and 3rd party tools.

Thus, if the price went to 10 mil on O. Kote, people could camp it rather than buy it. As things are, if the gilsellers who monopolize that drop were to raise the price, people would have to pay it.

Economics is not about getting money to stay in your account, it's getting your money to move and make more money. The monopolies held by gilsellers prevent others from using money to make money there. To access those items, one must pay a premium in gil.

Alternatively, one can buy gil from the gilsellers so as to afford their items and then the money goes right back to them, to be sold to someone else next time Rmtcaptainx gets a drop off Mee Deggi.


Finally, this idea that maybe someone was punished for getting conned by Cokken. Why are people holding on to this? Here's my serious hypothetical:

Two people are poor in China. Person 1 makes a little money working for IGE. Person 2 does not. Cokken tricks person 1. Person 1 is fired. We might consider Cokken responsible in some abstract moral way for the fact that person 1 has a slightly harder life. Person 2 gets that job.

Why might we not similarly consider Cokken responsible in some abstract moral way for the fact that person 2 has a slightly "easier" (?) life.

Perhaps people consider the sudden nature of the firing to be more harmful to person 1. But isn't the sudden windfall of a new source of income equally beneficial to person 2?

Finally, person 1's employers are acting against the ToS, and Cokken, it seems, intentionally targeted that group. Doesn't this indicate a sense of moral guidance?
 
Sculli said:
I don't need to pretend that it happened, he posted it himself.

I would like to apply your reasoning to our Chinese gil seller, let's call him Lowping. Lowping has friends who have known him for a long time, long before FFXI came out. They know that Lowping a good person, a loving father and husband. Why do we pretend that Lowping has fallen into some moral chasm by selling gil to us and needs rescuing? From Lowping's point of view selling gil is no more wrong to him than going over the speed limit is to us (except we can actually get in big trouble for that).

My point is that we all look at things from our own frame of reference. If we keep doing that, we will never able to understand where the other person is coming from. Read again, understand, not agree with their position, but truly understand their position.

I believe that when I look at it from Sev's frame of reference, I see initial hesitation, and then I see some regret, however minor. What that means to me is that he did consider his actions, before and after, which is more than a lot of other people would have done.

Whether anyone else agrees with my view in this particular case doesn't really matter to me. Until I get new information about a different issue, I will consider Sev as someone who intentionally screwed another person (I hope we are still considering Lowping a person) over, and felt some regret or shame afterwards. While that is not the best possible position he could have in my book, it is above those who would feel 100% justified in screwing Lowping.

Is Sev affected by how he does in my book? Nope, not in any way.
Knowing that; Should he care how he does in my book?
That's for him to decide, and for no one else.


Err... who pity's the RMT'ers? >.>; come on out and lemme slap you

If someone pitys them, they prolly are them or associate with them... there's not a single reason to pity the damn GilSellers, simply because THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE DAMN GAME, easy as that, what they are doing is AGAINST the user agreement, and that there is against the game's way, and hence they should not be in it
 
People who RMT; are the people I have no feelings for, wtf? THEY CHEAT, well technically we can't say if they cheat or not, unless you scan their comps to see they have a bot on em... other than that people say they cheat or hack, because they beat them to a claim or they beat them on anything

NOW

People who RMT, should and NEED to be banned from the game. They sell FAKE money for REAL money, wow that's a great a notable job, real winner there, now I know they might not be able to find anything else but that, but w/e they shouldnt be doing it, it's against the game, SO STOP DOING IT GODDAMNIT

Dunno why people complain and tell the GS's to stop anyways, not like SE is going to do anything about it, or even get on qcdn.org and see that "Oh my some of our players on the Quetz. server are very upset and want the RMT gone... *sigh* oh wait the RMT guys pay us anyways, eh fuck it let em stay for awhile longer..."

...
 
Fuck that o kote shit look at emperor hairpin? Fucking what 4mil now? That shit is ra/ex now it was ran by gill sellers for 500k. You think that regular players wouldn't dominate it and jack the price up? Give me a break

Yeah mpking sucks there are lots of people that have. Rmt or not 2 wrongs don't make a right.

stealing is stealing, and all your doing is burning another bridge for them to fuck us over more if they want.

You all talk about them controling everything, what do you do to combat it besides cry on a fucking forum? They can set the price of shit where ever they want because no one cares to camp what they camp. Then if someone does get it they sell it at the same price if not higher.

Its rediculas. You fucking stole it and just a word of "they are rmt they don't count" doesn't cut it.

That's like your gf cheating on you with 5 guys at the same time and saying she was drunk and it doesn't mean anything she would never do it sober.

Its wrong any way you look at it. You say its a game you can't get paid to play games? Game reviewers? Beta testers?

seriously, saying rmt is wrong is one thing accepting someone ganking 40mill from them in a cheating way is another and I wil not congrat someone and it effects the way I feel about him as a person for doing it. He stooped below there lvl. Drop the shit and make a difference or it was just an attention whore greedy move an I don't like the way you did it.
 
Valoran said:
The problem is still "my" point 3: there is an economy that you have to buy your way into
I just don't know how you can support such argument. What you are saying is that unless one buys gil, one has no chance to get an item the gil sellers are selling. Or am I misinterpreting your "buy" and you mean you have to pay big gil to get top items?

In either case, no one is forced to buy gil. People can farm mobs, or the AH to make profit to then afford whatever they like. Alternativly players can choose to not participate in that economy at all.

In fact, a large part of the demand for some of the items is created by unreasonable regular players who demand from their peers top end equipment only, and are not willing to work a little harder to make up for someone who doesn't have that one more stat point somewhere.

Some of the endgame players need to simply stop being such prima donnas and get real. That would eliviate a lot of the problem right there.

Valoran said:
You are wrong to believe that if these were not monopolized, then the prices would be as high anyway.
What do you base this claim on?
From experience I know that those games that provide instanced content (EQ, WoW), still see what I would call severely inflated prices for equipment that comes from encounters that can not be monopolized.

Anyone could run down to the instance and complete it really quick and get a good chance to get the drop. Yet people buy them at the respective AH for huges sums of gold or plat. Why?
Because it is simply not worth their time to do the instance. They have been playing the game for years and have so much cash that they simply do not care what they spend it on and how much.

Just because the majority of the readership can not afford their next apple juice doesn't mean that those who are in the market to buy items can't keep up with whatever the prices are.


Valoran said:
Economics is not about getting money to stay in your account, it's getting your money to move and make more money.
Actually, economics is about allocating scarce resources. Profit is an applied business concept.

Valoran said:
The monopolies held by gilsellers prevent others from using money to make money there. To access those items, one must pay a premium in gil.
I am unable to follow your argument. I can agree that any monopoly will prevent anyone else from profiting in that area of the market. The FFXI market is huge, lots of regular players are making profit every second the game runs, regardless of whether the gil sellers have some items cornered. Is that not so?

Valoran said:
Finally, this idea that maybe someone was punished for getting conned by Cokken. Why are people holding on to this?
Don't know, I am not one of those. ;)

Valoran said:
Why might we not similarly consider Cokken responsible in some abstract moral way for the fact that person 2 has a slightly "easier" (?) life.
Indeed, some just don't like the concept of making one feel miserable to make another one feel better.

Valoran said:
Finally, person 1's employers are acting against the ToS, and Cokken, it seems, intentionally targeted that group. Doesn't this indicate a sense of moral guidance?
I think it will be hard to agree on an answer, as it depends on perspective.
 
Holy shit!! 21 freaking pages in under 20 hours. If I didn't have to wake up early tomarrow I would go through and read all the posts but I have an important test to take in the morning.
 
passions said:
Fuck that o kote shit look at emperor hairpin? Fucking what 4mil now? That shit is ra/ex now it was ran by gill sellers for 500k. You think that regular players wouldn't dominate it and jack the price up? Give me a break

Yeah mpking sucks there are lots of people that have. Rmt or not 2 wrongs don't make a right.

stealing is stealing, and all your doing is burning another bridge for them to fuck us over more if they want.

You all talk about them controling everything, what do you do to combat it besides cry on a fucking forum? They can set the price of shit where ever they want because no one cares to camp what they camp. Then if someone does get it they sell it at the same price if not higher.

Its rediculas. You fucking stole it and just a word of "they are rmt they don't count" doesn't cut it.

That's like your gf cheating on you with 5 guys at the same time and saying she was drunk and it doesn't mean anything she would never do it sober.

Its wrong any way you look at it. You say its a game you can't get paid to play games? Game reviewers? Beta testers?

seriously, saying rmt is wrong is one thing accepting someone ganking 40mill from them in a cheating way is another and I wil not congrat someone and it effects the way I feel about him as a person for doing it. He stooped below there lvl. Drop the shit and make a difference or it was just an attention whore greedy move an I don't like the way you did it.


Man STFU and GTFO, how many accounts will you purchase this year?
 
Dowzer said:
Man STFU and GTFO, how many accounts will you purchase this year?

why because i speak the truth? oh and 0 since i haven't bought one thanks GTFO

tell me where i'm wrong? My points are true, you just sit in a fucking hole all the got damn time so you obviously arn't doing anything to counter what they are doing.
 
passions said:
Fuck that o kote shit look at emperor hairpin? Fucking what 4mil now? That shit is ra/ex now it was ran by gill sellers for 500k. You think that regular players wouldn't dominate it and jack the price up? Give me a break
Psst, it was 2m before the patch, thus the reason people were complaining because they couldnt afford it anymore. and its high NOW because of the difficulty in obtaining it (its from a rather stupid BC now)

Reserch {Over There}
 
passions said:
why because i speak the truth? oh and 0 since i haven't bought one thanks GTFO

tell me where i'm wrong? My points are true, you just sit in a fucking hole all the got damn time so you obviously arn't doing anything to counter what they are doing.

I mpk them everyday whilst sitting in the 'hole'

And your "truth" is far from legit.

I congratulate Seveath on fucking them over.

Why?

They shouldn't be in the game. They break the ToS.
 
The gilseller issue is complex, and not my main goal.

The issue I find unreasonable is that Cokken is denounced here for his action. This seems wrong for several reasons, which I will number for Sculli's convenience.

1. I believe there is a hypocrisy of this sort: If a majority of players received 10 million gil in their inbox from a known gilseller, they would simply call it "gilseller error in your favor."

2. Staking a claim that Cokken is responsible for the situation of a poor person in another country is a logical leap of record proportions.

3. I do not believe it is wrong to take what has been earned wrongly.

To anticipate counterarguments, of which I believe 3 will have the most (although 1 and 2 may earn their shares of outcry):

3a. This rule is not meant to be taken beyond an initial instance. That is, person X earns item I through illegal or immoral means (in-game or IRL); person Y gets it away from them. Person Z, under my consideration, would NOT be justified in then taking it from person Y.

3b. Gil and items held by gilsellers cease to be possessions of a player in the game and become tools to violate ToS through RMT.

3c. believe that gilsellers use 3rd party tools to help them claim notorious monsters and bot mining/exavation points, etc. I have personally seen a "Mr. Argus Warp" at the Jujitsu gi spawn site. I consider this behavior to be immoral as well as illegal.

4. The introduction of a second economy removes gilsellers from the initial contract, and certainly the spirit of the gaming project in general. It introduces competitive markets that require players to spend unreasonable amounts of gil or the use of 3rd party tools to compete in.

Again, clarification against counterarguments:
4a. I take gaming project to mean the admittedly changeable creation of an environment where players can role-play fantasy characters. The RMT process interferes with this, because an actual taru mage would not have an alternate self who shells out USD20 for 100 mil every month so he can afford stun. (Exaggeration intentional).

4b. The "removes from contract" statement I make means that the gilsellers no longer have any right to expect fair or moral treatment, and treatment of them that might otherwise be immoral should not be so considered because of this status. (This sounds harsh when stated formally, but it is simply to say, depriving a criminal of libertyis not unjust).

Finally,

5. Cokken's act might be seen as vigilantiism (sp, /sigh). This may or may not be, but it should be acceptable, since the appropriate authorities are insufficient for dealing with the problems of inflation and monopolies.



If you do not believe inflation or monopolies exist, go camp a jujitsu gi in under 14 days.
 
Ronith said:
People who RMT; are the people I have no feelings for, wtf? THEY CHEAT, well technically we can't say if they cheat or not, unless you scan their comps to see they have a bot on em... other than that people say they cheat or hack, because they beat them to a claim or they beat them on anything


Or they do things that should be possible: IE, longer spell range, teleporting mobs to their position. GG Everblack.
 
Marajade said:
Psst, it was 2m before the patch, thus the reason people were complaining because they couldnt afford it anymore. and its high NOW because of the difficulty in obtaining it (its from a rather stupid BC now)

Reserch {Over There}

Psst i bought mine for 600k a week before the update so 2mil? where?. It hit 2mil after the update. Also the NM is soloable at lvl 45 (at least i solo'd it as a 45thf/nin pretty easy). People are pay outragious prices for something they can SOLO. Its not like people are camping VE for money

Reserch?

Your Research is {Over There}
 
Dowzer said:
And your "truth" is far from legit.

yes the great dowzer explains it all with this post. I gave a perfect example to why i said that. all you have said is "haha fuck you mr account buyer" aka you got nothing but /cry.

wow you mpk them wOOt that solves a lot other then making them think its ok to mpk us because you mpk them.

besides that shouldn't you be perfectly capable to killing anything in that room if your camping sozu? I'm not saying that RMT is ok or that they dont cheat use bots hack ect. YES THATS WRONG ITS AGAINST THE RULES!! But i dont see why its ok for us to go against or moral values to do it to them.

Maybe its because i'm not a hater, i prefer to sit back with my pipe and love everyone. Yes i get angry but i don't hold grudges and all you guys do is get worked up over these PLAYERS!!! yes they are players whether you want to admit it or not. They may be working but they are PLAYING while working. So what if they are fucking up your economy its a fucking game. Your still playing right? your sitting wealthy right? your still finding fun things to do right? Then why worry your pretty little fucking heads about these people? Why hate them because they play it differently then you?

I just dont understand how you can be sitting there after playing 2yrs with practically anything you want and a ass wadd of cash in your pocket and still hate these people that you "claim" are ruining the game? Then praise someone because they STOLE a 40million gill item.

maybe i'm just not seeing your side right, but it doesn't make much sence. You guys are rich in the game, have very little left to attain and yet you still say they are ruining your game? how? It hasn't stopped you from getting what you've gotten so far.

oh fuck i lost myself >.>
Its my opinion you got yours. This is just something we'll have to agree to disagree on.
 
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