your view on muslim's veil/hijab

[masamura]

I beg your pardon... but NO WHERE in the Koran tells you to wear a bur'qa.

The Koran's closest verse in clothing for women is 33:59:

"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful."

So who told women to wear Bur'Qa?

Long time ago, after 100 years of Prophet's s.a.w. death, people started to make books called "Hadith." These "Hadith" are the collection of what the Prophet s.a.w. did in his lifetime or told someone about something. There were over a few hundred thousand of these books but so far, only a few thousand is authorized... however, the question arises. How do you prove that it is actually really what the prophet said? There's no way.. but to just believe the scholars (which I find as a total bullshit.). The problem with these "Hadith" is that most of the time, it contains quite some annoying rules and these rules have seperated Muslims into several differents sects. Just like the Christians with their Anglicans, Protestant, Catholics, Muslims have their own such as the extremist, Shiism to the pasifist of Sha'fi. The teachings of these sects (Mazhab) differ so much that some of them actually believe that "Hadith" is usually more important than "Koran" which is WRONG. ( To make it easy for you to understand, the "Hadith" is a collection of stories by Person A because he heard it from person B that heard from person C... stupid isn't it? While the Koran is a direct revelation through no other sources except through the Prophet s.a.w. as Gabriel passed him the words from God )

You see, those extreme, I need to kill someone verses does not exist in the Koran, however, they exist in these "Hadith". So, that's why women have to wear the Bur'qa and it's debatable if a woman should wear it or not. It really depends on which sect you come from.

The ONLY thing the Koran told women to do is, dress decently and try not to expose anything that's arousing. That means, please don't walk with a bikini around in a dark alley and not expect to be groped/molested/raped.

A good website about these issues is:

http://www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm

As of Islamic issues that is debatable, I've blogged most of the issues here:

http://www.noorhidayatnoordin.com/2006/08/16/the-real-islam/

If you got any questions regarding Islam, please don't hesitate to ask.. I'm not a Priest(Imam) of Islam but I might have enough knowledge to answer most of the myth and problems regarding to Islam. Trust me, I especially hate if when women wear Bur'Qa as a Muslim myself >.>

 

[Dayner]

do you know what khumūr mean masamura ?

Hijab or ħijāb (حجاب) is the Arabic term for "cover" (noun), based on the root حجب meaning "to veil, to cover (verb), to screen, to shelter".

In some Arabic-speaking countries and Western countries, the word hijab primarily refers to women's head, face, or body covering. But in Islamic scholarship, hijab is given the wider meaning of modesty, privacy, and morality.[1] The word used in the Qu'ran for a headscarf or veil is khimar (خمار).

Those who harass believing men and believing women unjustifiably shall bear the guilt of slander and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers to draw their cloaks over them [when they go out]. That is more proper, so that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. God is ever forgiving and merciful. If the hypocrites and those who have the ailment [of jealousy] in their hearts and the scandal mongers of Madinah do not desist, We will rouse you against them, and their days in that city will be numbered. Cursed be they; wherever found, they would be seized and put to death.

 

[masamura]

do you know what khumūr mean masamura ?

Yes I do sir. Here we calll it Bur'Qa or "Tudung."

Taken from http://www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm:

THE WORD "KHIMAR" in the QURAN:

"Khimar" is an Arabic word that can be found in the Quran in 24:31 While the first basic rule of Dress Code for the Muslim Women can be found in 7:26, the second rule of the DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN can be found in 24:31. Some Muslims quote verse 31 of sura 24 as containing the Hijab, or head cover, by pointing to the word, khomoorehenna, (from Khimar), forgetting that God already used the word Hijab, several times in the Quran.

Those blessed by God can see that the use of the word "Khimar" in this verse is not for "Hijab" or for head cover. Those who quote this verse usually add (Head cover) (veil) after the word Khomoorehenna, and usually between ( ), because it is their addition to the verse not God's.

Here it is 24:31;

"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed." 24:31

Here is Yousuf Ali's translation, but the word KHIMAR was put back in place instead of (veils), so the verse would look as it should have been before adding Ali's own interpretation:

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments ... that they should draw their KHIMAR over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands.." Y. Ali's translation, with the word khimar put back in place.

"Khimar" is an Arabic word that means, cover, any cover, a curtain is a Khimar, a dress is a Khimar, a table cloth that covers the top of a table is a Khimar, a blanket can be used as a Khimar..etc. The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers, the Khimar covers (a window, a body, a table . etc.) while KHAMRA covers the state of mind. Most of the translators, obviously influenced by Hadith (fabrications) translate the word as VEIL and thus mislead most people to believe that this verse is advocating the covering of the head.

In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget.

God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair. He was not waiting for a Scholar to put the words for Him.

The Arabic word for CHEST, GAYB is in the verse (24:31), but the Arabic words for HEAD, (RAAS) or HAIR, (SHAAR) are NOT in the verse. The commandment in the verse is clear - COVER YOUR CHEST OR BOSOMS, but also the fabrication of the scholars and most of the translators is clear by claiming- cover your head or hair.

The last part of the verse (24:31) translates as, "They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies." The details of the body can be revealed or not revealed by the dress you wear, not by your head cover.

Notice also the expression in 24:31, "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary." This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God.

Again God here used this very general term to give us the freedom to decide according to our own circumstances the definition of "Which is necessary". It is not up to a scholar or to any particular person to define this term. God wants to leave it personal for every woman and no one can take it away from her.

Women who follow the basic rule number one i.e. righteousness, will have no problem making the right decision to reveal only which is necessary. The word "zeenatahunna" in this verse refers to the woman's body parts (beauty) and not to ornaments and decorations as some people interpret it or translate it.

At the end of the verse, God told the women not to strike with their feet to show their "zeenatahunna". You do not need to strike your feet to show your ornaments but the way you strike your feet while walking can expose or shake certain parts of the body that do not need to be emphasized.

Accepting orders from anybody but God, means idol-worship. That is how serious the matter of Hijab/ khimar is. Women who wear Hijab because of tradition or because they like it for personal reasons commit no sin, as long as they know that it is not part of this perfect religion. Those who are wearing it because they think God ordered it are committing Idol-worship, as God did not order it, the scholars did. These women have found for themselves another god than the One who revealed the Quran, complete, perfect and FULLY detailed to tell them they have to cover their heads to be Muslims.

Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death, 4:48.

 

[Zyndara]

The ONLY thing the Koran told women to do is, dress decently and try not to expose anything that's arousing. That means, please don't walk with a bikini around in a dark alley and not expect to be groped/molested/raped.

I'm really hoping that's unfortunate word choice and not what you meant to say. Because if you think somehow what a woman wears or does not wear entitles a man to help himself to "grope/molest/rape" a woman, you have a real problem. I mean please, tell me I'm justified in having a little more faith in the average man's mental capacity than that...

 

[masamura]

I'm really hoping that's unfortunate word choice and not what you meant to say. Because if you think somehow what a woman wears or does not wear entitles a man to help himself to "grope/molest/rape" a woman, you have a real problem. I mean please, tell me I'm justified in having a little more faith in the average man's mental capacity than that...

Typically, I don't care.. even if a normal woman is naked in front of me, I'll probably just say "Whoa!" and then walk away .. maybe with a back-gaze or two, but does it arouse me? Who wouldn't get aroused?! Would it make me wish I want to have sex? Do I have to answer that...? Self control? I have, and thank the god for that... but how many people can control their urges?

Assuming if you're in a dark-alley, 2 women walking back to back and you're a serial rapist.. would you target a woman who wear jeans with t-shirt or a girl who wears bikini and panties ? Sorry.. I couldn't give a less extreme example at the moment. Mental block.

Of course, Koran is just a suggestion of life of what to do and don'ts just like the Bible or the Torah. It's your freedom in the end, but logically speaking, prevention is better than cure no?

 

[Uzor]

I'm really hoping that's unfortunate word choice and not what you meant to say. Because if you think somehow what a woman wears or does not wear entitles a man to help himself to "grope/molest/rape" a woman, you have a real problem. I mean please, tell me I'm justified in having a little more faith in the average man's mental capacity than that...

All religious books contains way of life. Basic guidelines that the believrs need to follow in order to make every day life run smoothly. The 10 comandments are basic guidelines to make every day life go by easier. One might say any decent human being won't do those things, and we don't go around saying "I really do hope that's unfortunate word choice" about the part where it says "thou shalt not murder". Everyone might think its obvious, but its a guide line to make every day life easier.

The Koran is the same. Saying that you should not rape someone is rather obvious, but that's still a law. One of the guide lines in the Korean is that women should cover up their private parts so other men won't get aroused. It might be obvious, but its still there. Doesn't mean the Korean supports discrimination in any way.

 

[Uzor]

Its the same way with "You can not eat meat from pigs". If its not decently cooked, it can be harmfull for you to eat. Pig meat often caused diseases during those ages, and in order to prevent that, it was eaiser to just ban it all-together. Its all to help the people, to prevent certain things from happening, and for people to be able to live trouble-free lives.

All religions lay down basic moral guide lines, and other random guide lines to help the believers every-day lives.

 

[Darkdante]

Its all about
MALE POWER!

I say keep it on, to many fucking feminists in this country anyway.

It's nice to have female servants................... if thats what you want to be.

 

[Zyndara]

Typically, I don't care.. even if a normal woman is naked in front of me, I'll probably just say "Whoa!" and then walk away .. maybe with a back-gaze or two, but does it arouse me? Who wouldn't get aroused?! Would it make me wish I want to have sex? Do I have to answer that...? Self control? I have, and thank the god for that... but how many people can control their urges?

Assuming if you're in a dark-alley, 2 women walking back to back and you're a serial rapist.. would you target a woman who wear jeans with t-shirt or a girl who wears bikini and panties ? Sorry.. I couldn't give a less extreme example at the moment. Mental block.

Frankly, I don't know of many women quite that stupid. I just really find the assertion that a woman is asking for it or deserving of some kind of sexual impropriety because of what they're wearing extremely offensive. And although there are deviant exceptions like there are in all areas of society, I'd like to believe that your average man isn't going to molest a woman on the mere presence of some skin. The men that would are sick in the head and that's why rape is a crime punishable by law.

Pertaining specifically to this topic though, there are extremes everywhere, especially in religion. I guess the point I was making is, the sole reason why these women wear a burqa or cover themselves shouldn't be because men want them to, because men can't practice self-control and restraint or because they are forced to. If they choose to, they should be allowed to as long as the safety and security of others is not in question. If they choose not to, there shouldn't be anyone trying to force them to do so.

 

[Dayner]

btw the arabic word for "chest is (صدر) shadr "not gaby , gaby is not even an old arabic word

anyway i dont want to start a flame war here

 

[masamura]

Frankly, I don't know of many women quite that stupid. I just really find the assertion that a woman is asking for it or deserving of some kind of sexual impropriety because of what they're wearing extremely offensive. And although there are deviant exceptions like there are in all areas of society, I'd like to believe that your average man isn't going to molest a woman on the mere presence of some skin. The men that would are sick in the head and that's why rape is a crime punishable by law.

Pertaining specifically to this topic though, there are extremes everywhere, especially in religion. I guess the point I was making is, the sole reason why these women wear a burqa or cover themselves shouldn't be because men want them to, because men can't practice self-control and restraint or because they are forced to. If they choose to, they should be allowed to as long as the safety and security of others is not in question. If they choose not to, there shouldn't be anyone trying to force them to do so.

Well.. yes. Men who rape and gets punished is good, that's the end. However, the Koran isn't telling you about if Men is sick... They're just suggesting a prevention method (but not through wearing Bur'Qa.. but through wearing decently.) In the States, I know men are used to seeing women half naked all th time, however, in other parts of the world, culturely, we don't have such a thing. However, because of western influences, men are getting to see things that they don't usually see these days which is causing them to go wild hence, why Koran suggested the preventative method. Just keep in mind, that the Koran is meant to be universal and not just for a single country.... Universally, not every culture is the same. That means, not all men are used to seeing women with bikini tops and hold their horses down.

 

[Uzor]

Frankly, I don't know of many women quite that stupid. I just really find the assertion that a woman is asking for it or deserving of some kind of sexual impropriety because of what they're wearing extremely offensive. And although there are deviant exceptions like there are in all areas of society, I'd like to believe that your average man isn't going to molest a woman on the mere presence of some skin. The men that would are sick in the head and that's why rape is a crime punishable by law.

Pertaining specifically to this topic though, there are extremes everywhere, especially in religion. I guess the point I was making is, the sole reason why these women wear a burqa or cover themselves shouldn't be because men want them to, because men can't practice self-control and restraint or because they are forced to. If they choose to, they should be allowed to as long as the safety and security of others is not in question. If they choose not to, there shouldn't be anyone trying to force them to do so.

Its not because there are some men that's sick in the head. Its because of a of different factors. Mainly their hormones, how much the produce, how much they were exposed to it in the womb etc. A rapist can be completely normal in every way and still rape people. Its not because they're sick in the head. This is completely off-topic though, and has nothing to do with the question Dayner asked. So please don't bring that up.

 

[Zyndara]

Its not because there are some men that's sick in the head. Its because of a of different factors. Mainly their hormones, how much the produce, how much they were exposed to it in the womb etc. A rapist can be completely normal in every way and still rape people. Its not because they're sick in the head. This is completely off-topic though, and has nothing to do with the question Dayner asked. So please don't bring that up.

You really need to read more before you try to direct people what to talk about... Try a page or two back when Masamura mentioned something about how a woman should "expect" to be raped/molested/groped because of what she does or doesn't wear. And then my response which you, yourself just posted (the bolded part should help you out - yes, that's me saying, "Pertaining specifially to this topic," which you apparently missed):

Frankly, I don't know of many women quite that stupid. I just really find the assertion that a woman is asking for it or deserving of some kind of sexual impropriety because of what they're wearing extremely offensive. And although there are deviant exceptions like there are in all areas of society, I'd like to believe that your average man isn't going to molest a woman on the mere presence of some skin. The men that would are sick in the head and that's why rape is a crime punishable by law.

Pertaining specifically to this topic though, there are extremes everywhere, especially in religion. I guess the point I was making is, the sole reason why these women wear a burqa or cover themselves shouldn't be because men want them to, because men can't practice self-control and restraint or because they are forced to. If they choose to, they should be allowed to as long as the safety and security of others is not in question. If they choose not to, there shouldn't be anyone trying to force them to do so.

Although, frankly, yes what Masa said does have to do with the topic, seeing that part of the OP's question regarding whether or not women should wear their coverings had to do with Dayner's mention of "sexual thoughts" and urges.

 

[Uzor]

Masamura didn't say that he think women should expect to be raped. The Koran didn't either. You just interpreted it that way.

 

[masamura]

You really need to read more before you try to direct people what to talk about... Try a page or two back when Masamura mentioned something about how a woman should "expect" to be raped/molested/groped because of what she does or doesn't wear.

No, I don't mean that women should expect themselves to be raped.... That's just wrong. What I mean was, a decently clothed woman is safer than a scantly dressed woman. It's just simple as that... and logical too.

 

[Zyndara]

Masamura didn't say that he think women should expect to be raped. The Koran didn't either. You just interpreted it that way.

Um... I hate to refuse to let you make this out to be me trying to put words in someone's mouth but uh...

That means, please don't walk with a bikini around in a dark alley and not expect to be groped/molested/raped.

That's a QUOTE. Real difficult to misinterpret what's sitting right there in front of you. I never said the Koran said anything about rape. Again: Try reading first. Especially if you're going to try tell people what is on topic and not on topic.

 

[etchdog2000]

Women shouldn't be forced or allowed to do anything. They should be given the same choices as men.

If they want to wear them, that's fine. But if they don't want to wear them, then that should be fine too.

I don't know about drawing sexual attention to theirself though. I think they could wear half as many garments and still be repectfully covered.

This suit:

warants no more sexual attention than this ?hijab?:

Not true, I think that suit is sexy on that woman!

 

[masamura]

Um... I hate to refuse to let you make this out to be me trying to put words in someone's mouth but uh...



That's a QUOTE. Real difficult to misinterpret what's sitting right there in front of you. I never said the Koran said anything about rape. Again: Try reading first. Especially if you're going to try tell people what is on topic and not on topic.

Read the post above yours for my clarification.

 

[Zyndara]

No, I don't mean that women should expect themselves to be raped.... That's just wrong. What I mean was, a decently clothed woman is safer than a scantly dressed woman. It's just simple as that... and logical too.

Then it was poor word choice. And then yes, I agree with you, a woman is obviously safer who is decently clothed. The question is though about full covering. They are two pretty far extremes. I think having every inch of skin covered is excessive. But I do agree with the point made about the difference in cultures. What is a little bit of skin here is probably scandalous in other countries around the world. Again I think it comes down to these women. If they choose it, so be it. I don't think there should be a law governing that choice either way.

*Regarding your last post, I was typing this while you were typing that.

 

[Uzor]

Then it was poor word choice. And then yes, I agree with you, a woman is obviously safer who is decently clothed. The question is though about full covering. They are two pretty far extremes. I think having every inch of skin covered is excessive. But I do agree with the point made about the difference in cultures. What is a little bit of skin here is probably scandalous in other countries around the world. Again I think it comes down to these women. If they choose it, so be it. I don't think there should be a law governing that choice either way.

Funny you ask me to actually read, when you yourself didn't read what neither me nor Masamura said. Since obviously everyone else understood what Masamura ment, that only leaves one person in the wrong.