90+ people dead in London

To all the people who think we should withdraw our troops......

What do you predict to happen if we did such a thing?

What do you think would happen to all the good citizens who think they need outside help from the oppresive sides of thier society?

What do you think would happen to all the people who hate Americans, Europeans, and etc.... ?

And just in general what do you think would happen?

And I should state I'm heavily against the war in Iraq, and it is my firm belief we should not have gone in their in the first place.

Let me put this in simple terms so you get where I"m coming from.

Say you have a guy who hates your guts cuz your White and would kill you any chance he got, and he didn't care if he went to jail or hell, and this same guy terroizes his brother who is just as crazy but is your friend. Say one day you get sick of seeing him abuse his brother, and offer your friend to help take care of his brother. You go up to the crazy brother, tell him your friend told you to punch him and you punch him in the face. What do you do then? Walk away?

Probably a bad example but I think you can get my drift.
 
Well yeah...its a good point but i always liked the approch that if they want to do something stupid let them. If they want all the soldiers to leave (which the majority seem to...) then remove them. If all hell breaks loose then it was their own fault and if it doesn't then all the better.

Although....that approch is probably a bad one when all hell breaks loose could mean hundreds of lives...
 
i can dig that dante and on a side note thank you for providing and intelligent post somewhat to the contrary of most of the opinions that have been expressed about our armed forces being wherever. Naturally, i don't think pulling all our troops from like .. everywhere is a good idea. We do have enemies, we do have foreign interests of the military order in other countries, and we do need some presence in other countries. Do i think it's on us to be the global police? no way. I would love to see troops on our borders and a general interest in national security though. Now i know alot of you are gonna say "well they're doing all they can." which may be a valid point in some people's eyes but let me give you a for instance:

Couple weeks ago my mother broke the hell out of her leg and i visited her in the hospitol. She asked me to bring her dog with her b/c she wanted to see her. The dog is a chihahua so very small and quite easy to carry, i put her under a coat of my mothers and snucker her in to the hospitol with ease.

I walked in to my high school a couple weeks ago during class time before summer vacation and wandered around a bit....

My local national guard post is inaccessable due to road construction, there hasen't been a car in that parking lot for over 2 weeks.

Mghee Tyson airport not only has deplorable security but sits right next to a busy highway that would be more than easy enough to pull off and park near the runways...

What if... ?

Now this all may make me sound like a horrible person for thinking these things but at large i'm sure i'm not the only one thinking them and surely not the only person/place in the country that has these security concerns. While i do believe our military does serve a function wherever they may be and respect them for doing it personally i believe they could be put to better use if our government gave a rats ass about half the things they say they do to get good press. Bottom line IMO kyp hit the nail on the head when he said "Really gets me that we are the only country on the planet that thinks we can declare wars on an ideal and win. " War on drugs/illiteracy/poverty/etc. all failed, does anyone really believe this whole war on terror is going to go any better? in this case i can only see the best defense as ... well .. defense of our own county.. people here making sure the American machine stops stalling and sputtering and starts revving up to put the country back on track and back in the hands of the majority of people who live in it.

Thanks :D
 
ohyea one more for instance just in case i get that "well sure who gives a crap about bumblescum TN" remark. 2 weeks ago 7 people snuck in to the Oak Ridge Nuclear Facility with false documents .... on of the (supposedly) most guarded and secure nuclear facilities in the country and some guy just printed out documents and he and his buddies waltzed right in. I live just over the hill from that place .. i wouldn't even have time to light a cigarette.
 
Rinoah said:
Although....that approch is probably a bad one when all hell breaks loose could mean hundreds of lives...

Millions if the war breaked out to the rest of the world. Like when the Nazi's took over thier own country and went on to take over the world.
 
First off...

Last I checked Oak Ridge hadn't done nuke work since the reorganization in the 1970's, these days they're mostly a DOE thinktank. Should people have been able to sneak in? No. But realistically speaking, if you're worried about people getting their hands on nuclear weapons, you really ought to be looking more at Eastern Europe and less at the United States. You also might want to give France a little chat about selling nuclear reactors to people.

Now, for the rest of it.

We're in Iraq. Deal with it. If we leave now, every positive thing we've done there will collapse inside a month, the country will devolve into a lengthy civil war, and we'll be left with a considerably bigger mess than when we started.

Regarding WWII: Do a little more research on the Lend/Lease program before you decry the involvement of the US in the war. The US DID save the collective arse of Europe, and gave the Soviets enough time to save their own collective arses. If this leaves a bad taste in your mouth, feel free to pay back the money we forgave you. Inflation adjusted, of course.

Regarding pulling troops out of foreign countries. Well, I think Germany is a good place to start. Hell, Europe in general strikes me as a great place to slash our military involvement. Iraq, on the other hand, not so much. Ditto for South Korea.

What bugs the daylights out of me are people who in the same breath decry the measures taken by the goverment to increase national security, and then say how lacking our security is and how we need to tighten it up. You want a what-if scenario? Load a cropduster with nerve gas and go to a NASCAR event. Find a sufficiently unscrupulous individual in some failing East European country and obtain a sample of smallpox. Infect yourself, then go on a world tour. Release Anthrax spores into the airconditioning system of the Sears Tower.

What does the Patriot Act really do? Most people have no clue. They say "OMG PATRIOT ACT IS WRONGORZ!!" and have no idea WHY. That bothers the life out of me. At the heart of it, it allows our various agencies and databases to talk to each other. That's the core of the patriot act. Yes, it has provisions in it that are... less than likable. Most of which would fail if challenged in the Supreme Court, and that's fairly common knowledge, so those provisions are rarely enforced. The heart of it all though, still bothers some people. They're of the belief that the CIA and FBI and local law enforcement should NOT be allowed to talk to one another. That the government shouldn't be allowed to organize all the data IT ALREADY HAS into an easily searchable format.

On the concept of "War for Oil". You people don't read, do you? Honestly. You might note that we haven't gone in an nationalized Iraq's oil fields. There aren't secret stealth tankers moving out in the dead of the night shipping Iraqi oil to the greedy plutocrats of the American kleptocracy. Though sadly, there are people that believe that's exactly what's happening. You wanna talk War for Oil, you MIGHT have had a case in the first Gulf War, where it was by UN decree that we moved in and liberated Kuwait. On a side note, who footed the bill for that little operation? Not the UN. But even there, it was less about seizing oil than making sure that no one person in the Middle East controlled too much.

As far as catching Bin Laden: We can't, so long as he has people willing to hide him from us. Yeah, we caught Saddam... by moving in, conquering the entire country, and putting tens of thousands of troops to work doing that one task. And now for the connecting point...

As far as the War on Terror: It CAN be won. Much like the "War on Drugs", the "War on Poverty", and so on. We're just insufficiently ruthless to do so. Most societies are, even the ones that look sufficiently hard from the outside. The trick to beating terrorism is simple: Use the same tactics, only on a vastly larger scale. I made a post about that a little while ago, lemme dig up the relevant quote:

Terrorism persists because of the support of the society. And, to be brutally honest, despite how horrible they think we are, they have NO IDEA what the US military is in fact capable of. We could, if we so desired, pick a city a week and obliterate it without ever indulging in nuclear weapons. JDAM packages on FAE bombs, dropped from high altitude against a fully supressed target. Paint a nice little grid, destroy everything above ground. Come back the next day with ground penetrating bombs and dig craters everywhere, destroying the utilities that support the city from below. Then send one last flight over with persistent cluster munitions, and do the equivalent of "salting the earth". Rinse, repeat. If we wanted to be the "Great Satan", we could do a hell of a job of it, no pun intended. And frankly, I'm tempted to do exactly that, at least once. Fly over to Iran, and destroy it from the air. Don't bother sending in troops to occupy, just bomb it back to the stone age. Turn an entire country into a giant object lesson.

Do I advocate doing so? Not really. As it turns out, I'm not ruthless enough to do it either, I think.
 
Yeah...i can't comment on WWII or the patriot act because i dont know anything about the patriot act and my knowledge of WWII is sketchy at best. But the point i made previously was that we are allies. That is the sort of thing allies do and i and i imagine the rest of our nation are greatful we are not speaking german. The problem i have is that it is thrown in our face ever 5 seconds as far as i can see it.

And as for no stealth tankers...while i confess i am not up to date on events in iraq in an environment such as that i imagine it would be incredibly dangerous and stupid. Because while i may not know what events are like in iraq last i heard they were none to friendly. And one thing i DO know is that Oil is very flamable. While i am not claiming that oil was the main reason for the invading of iraq or that the USA will ever pump iraq's oil and take it home with them, what i am saying is that it occurs to me that in a hostile environment where there are terrorists and rebels which can get their hands on explosives pumping oil and storing it seems like and insanly stupid thing to do.

Hmm...i think i will find out more about USA's involvement in WWII...then i can probably comment on that as well.
 
I suppose the first two weeks of the iraw invasion codenamed: Operation Iraqi Liberation, i'll let those slow folks among you pick out the anagram ofr yourselves, and the coincidental renaming of the operation was a fluke? Fruedian slip most likely. Anyway that's not the point i was making and you could rationalize motivations till you're blue in the face. The fact of the matters. Now to the meat and potatoes:

First off, we are in iraq and that's all well and peachy for me as not only does my opinion in the matter not count neither does most of the rest of the world's opinion or the UN. Thought the good ole commander and chief declared this war over... one of his many blunders i spose, ultimately forgiveable unless you ask the families of fallen soldiers i'd guess.

Regarding WWII: we did as little as possible until pearl harbour, no denying it. We sent supplies, weapons, etc. then when we fealt threatened (and rightly so) about the war coming over-shores or hurting our economic interests we jumped in with both feet and came out looking like gold, only to have later generations use our effort in said war as leverage on other countries. The WWII stuff was basicly brought up as a side note then dismissed by our british/european posters as silly pompous blather.

Regarding pulling our troops out of foreign countries: I can agree with most points made on this however i still think it'd be nice if we could actually enforce border security with our military. Yes, there's no point in leaving iraq now, government saw to that, besides that place is so upside-down it's hardly worth arguing that we should be occupying foreign soil to play house with their government.... The country's the size of california .. and this may sound a bit calloused but who gives a shit about them? i sure didn't either time we've been over there .. that's the handy part about the phrase "over there" .. it's over ------> there I.E. none of our business unless we're asked to be involved on the global scale but w/e to each his own on this point.

On the patriot act: i don't like that ANY authoritive body can look up my medical records, tap my phones, etc on a whim let alone detain someone indefinately on suspicion .. that's just me, gustapo bullshit like that makes me nervous.

On the Oak Ridge thing: wether or not it's a active weapons site is irrelevant, hazardous materials are still there and in use, if something were to happen there (i wasen't thinking about weapons being stolen, something a little more on the explosive side) alot of people on the eastern seaboard would be having issues depending on the winds.

Bin Laden and the wars on ideals: you mean to tell me we CAN'T catch this guy yet all our government is pooling resources on doing so, you're the expert better hop on the phone. I spose the CIA saying they had a "excellent idea" where he was hiding was just something they say to put the public at ease while they continue to not do anything but waste taxpayer money.

So your idea to stop the war on terror is to become terrorists? Haven't read much about anything we've done in columbia visa vi war on drugs have you? :lol: A war on an ideal cannot be won, end of story. There will still be terrorism, drugs, illiteracy, oppression, intollerance(sp?), and poverty 100yrs from now provided we haven't all managed to kill each other by then, get your head out of the clouds. I know you don't advocate what you wrote but you did still write it and i'm not here to bash you for it, just seems kinda silly to me to post something like that without the conviction to back it up.

Anyway, welcome to the new crusades, history runs full circle again. You actually think they're gonna stop at iraq? :lol: Funny how those people are so important but North Korea threatens to nuke us daily and we do nothing about that.
 
Mokk said:
On the patriot act: i don't like that ANY authoritive body can look up my medical records, tap my phones, etc on a whim let alone detain someone indefinately on suspicion .. that's just me, gustapo bullshit like that makes me nervous.

Does the Patriot act matter? Whats it doing that hasn't been done before? Just because more people know about it now doesn't mean it never happened before. And just because you make a law wont stop them either, all it does is make it "legal". Yes more people can do it now without hiding, but its not like you really had much privacy to begin with anyway.

Did you really belive you had much privacy in this day and age of internet marketing and data warehousing? Who protects all this data from thieves? The dork with the thick coke bottle glasses who's underpaid and overworked and just needs a hundred dollar bill to let your life into someone elses hands thats who.
 
I'm not so naive i don't know it hasen't been going on, i've only been of age that it mattered to me for about the past 5-7 years. The fact it's written in to law bothers me, but as we all know the government is above the laws these days and it got brought up so i made my opinion known about it, no blood no foul ^^
 
Darkdante said:
Who protects all this data from thieves? The dork with the thick coke bottle glasses who's underpaid and overworked and just needs a hundred dollar bill to let your life into someone elses hands thats who.

I just thought up another one, that some disgruntled IT guys might get a chuckle at.

Now its the underpaid, overworked, secret Terroist from Afghanistan brought to the USA by H1-B, thats protecting all your privacy.

lol.... oh well bad joke.
 
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