a great big F U (WTB Elemental Torque)

I think it's funny how there are so many topic out there *I want this itme but the price rose, so I offered more money.* like this by legitimate players.

Yet everyone blames the gilbuyers. Everyone here has at one time or another paid more on a price gouge. The prices rise and it's all of our faults. We need that sushi to xp, we need our sneak oils, and we need our gear.

I'd probably just play another job with gear, except I know everyone submits to the gouging. if I just sit back and wait the price will only go up.
 
Prices in this game are absolutely stupid. Vermy cloak jumping from 1.5 mil to over 4 mil is retarded. It's not even that great. :roll:
 
People who buy gil are the same idiots that probably would use that stupid pl-ing service Alanon posted about...

You raise the price of some items so they sell slower.... I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense for a lot of the items that have that yellow circle at the top corner of the description... Now, I don't know if the elemental torque has that at the top of my head but there are a lot of items that have that little yellow circle which means you can only have one.

So, I go out, I farm the item. Notice it sells super fast......so I want to increase the price so I don't get my money faster, and have to wait until it sells before I get another one? Price jacking may work for some items but that kind of reasoning doesn't play into circled items.

And the whole reasoning "I'm jacking my prices to cover the AH fee" is the exact reason why this new AH system is the cause of MORE inflation instead of the 'decrease' it was supposed to cause. People are so worried about losing the 5k they put up as a fee, they'll jack the price 10-20k because you know...they'll have to put it up a couple times.

I would love to put items up for what they're worth, but what the hell are they worth anymore? I think everything is way too overpriced nowadays and the cost of materials to skill up a craft is going insane because of slight price jackings here and there. Then when you get to the top you have to make up for all that inflated gouging you experience by basically pricing your items at whatever the prices the AH dictates. And that's only if you're a nice crafter. If you want to make even more money, you'll probably jack the price up even more.

The AH is only going one way and that's up. Funny...didn't think going up would be the direction to hell though.. :twisted:
 
have to wait until it sells before I get another one?
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You can only have one in your inventory/mh/storage at one time. You however can have 7 up on the ah, 8 in your outgoing mail(to your mule), 8 sitting in your incoming box (sent from mule for instance), and 1 on you. So up to 24 copies of a rare item available not to mention this is increased greatly with a mule. You just have to move that rare item out of your inventory before picking up another. This is how you can stock pile and put a crunch on supply to raise prices of rare items.
And the whole reasoning "I'm jacking my prices to cover the AH fee" is the exact reason why this new AH system is the cause of MORE inflation instead of the 'decrease' it was supposed to cause. People are so worried about losing the 5k they put up as a fee, they'll jack the price 10-20k because you know...
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And just the opposite argument can be made. I don't want to have to pay that fee multiple times, so I'll put it up for less resulting in deflation. The big kicker though is the ah fee is removing money from the economy which causes deflation.

The only times actual inflation occurs is when you get money from npcs via selling items to them, doing quests with gil rewards, killing mobs that drop gil, or doing an activity that destroys items/equipment (like food) because this increases the gil side of the gil to items ratio. Deflation occurs everytime someone gets a sellable item from a npc, mob, or quest as the item/equip side of the gil to item/equip ratio increases. Deflation also occurs whenever you pay gil to an npc for an item, chocobo, quest, or ah fee.
pricing your items at whatever the prices the AH dictates. And that's only if you're a nice crafter. If you want to make even more money, you'll probably jack the price up even more.
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Welcome to the basics of economics. How do you think most businesses price their merchandise? You can only jack up the price when supply is low or demand is high. I would like to see someone try to jump the price of fire crystals to 20k while there are 100 stacks already up and few are buying. 8)
 
Well, I'll definitely admit, I would have never thought you could do that with the items. I'm actually shocked...lol.

As for the arguments, yes... arguments can be put that deflation occurs here and inflation occurs there. I think that went more macro than I would have bothered to think about.

And yes... i understand the economics of the crafting cost/profit etc crap (damn, I hate economics). It's just sad that it has to be that way. I've never been one of a major price jacker. I'll confess, sometimes I will go 1k here or there.. but that's basically it. Some things I just think shouldn't be so costly.

I wouldn't be surprised if fire crystals did jump to 20k someday...

I guess another way deflation occurs is if someone quits and does not give their money away. But then, like I said..lol..more macro than I'd like to think. I still think the AH tax fees caused a lot of the problems. There are both attitudes out there, but with the way prices are going, it seems more people are increasing rather than decreasing.
 
I love how you guys try to apply real life economics to this game. It's not the same so stop trying to do it.

In real life, you have people who have millions of dollars and people who don't. The people who have the cash buy the luxury items like nice V12 Vanquish's, huge houses, Gucci clothing etc. because they can afford it. The middle class folks aren't expected to have these items and get by with Honda Civic's and Old Navy sales rack clothing.

Now go into FFXI. Theif A has 18 mil in the bank and has a scorp harness. Theif B is barely pushing 1 mil in the bank but it still expected to have the scorp harness. The same is in FFXI as it is in real life, some people are good at making money and others aren't but both are expected to have the same gear and theif B will be looked down upon if he doesn't get that Scorp Harness. Sure there are alternatives to the harness but who are you kidding when you say he doesn't 'need' it.

If this games economy were like real life I'd get by with Seer's gear and really wouldn't be expected to have my Austere.
 
Sabia said:
I love how you guys try to apply real life economics to this game. It's not the same so stop trying to do it.

In real life, you have people who have millions of dollars and people who don't. The people who have the cash buy the luxury items like nice V12 Vanquish's, huge houses, Gucci clothing etc. because they can afford it. The middle class folks aren't expected to have these items and get by with Honda Civic's and Old Navy sales rack clothing.

Now go into FFXI. Theif A has 18 mil in the bank and has a scorp harness. Theif B is barely pushing 1 mil in the bank but it still expected to have the scorp harness. The same is in FFXI as it is in real life, some people are good at making money and others aren't but both are expected to have the same gear and theif B will be looked down upon if he doesn't get that Scorp Harness. Sure there are alternatives to the harness but who are you kidding when you say he doesn't 'need' it.



If this games economy were like real life I'd get by with Seer's gear and really wouldn't be expected to have my Austere.
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Very well said Sabia. I agree completely... but don't be dissing my Old Navy pants... cheap and comfortable! :wink:

Back to the topic, some people in this game don't seem to get the concept of a "luxury". People should try to get the best gear they can afford, but not having something like a Scorp Harness should not be looked down on upon.
 
Sanoske said:
Very well said Sabia. I agree completely... but don't be dissing my Old Navy pants... cheap and comfortable! :wink:
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Lol I'd never diss Old Navy, you're looking at the queen of the discount rack.

I don't know...what I'm trying to say is I feel like an asshole because I'll never have a Vermy cloak but I don't feel like an asshole because I can't afford a V12 Vanquish...get my drift?
 
While I do like your example Sabia, it really avoided the entire economics issue we were discussing. Inflation, supply and demand, price variations do work the same in game as they do in real life like I described in my previous post. Your example avoided those issues entirely.

However, what your example does address is a strong difference between the game and rl. In rl our activities aren't impeded or usually affected in the slightest by the wealth or poorness of our coworkers. For example, the guy programming in the next cubicle could be richer than bill gates or poorer than the bum down the street, but if knowledge is the same, his ability to do work will be the same. Thus people don't get upset about others poorness in rl.

However in game the wealth or poorness does have a strong affect on your own performance while exping. Whether that thf has scorpion harness or not is going to determine how much exp you get and how well your party functions. Thus since you are now personally affected, people now care about the wealth of others. Back to RL, imagine if that guy in the next cubicle's bank roll determined whether you had to work 10 hour shifts or 5 hour shifts for the same daily pay. You would suddenly be very concerned about who you worked with and want to work with those who made your life easiest or more profitable.

As you can see, there is a connection between RL and in game economics, but there are outside factors causing the differences.
 
Oh I totally understand what you're trying to say Sabia, I feel the same way. The only flaw in your reasoning is that since this is an online game, people aren't neccessarily going to think the same as they would in reality. I mean, guaranteed most of the people on FFXI don't have a Vanquish =P, but since they can get uber gear, they feel that other people should be able to do the same, when in fact they can't.
 
Sanoske said:
Oh I totally understand what you're trying to say Sabia, I feel the same way. The only flaw in your reasoning is that since this is an online game, people aren't neccessarily going to think the same as they would in reality. I mean, guaranteed most of the people on FFXI don't have a Vanquish =P, but since they can get uber gear, they feel that other people should be able to do the same, when in fact they can't.
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If Real life were like this game nobody would move out of their parent's basement until they could afford a $350,000 house. I've watched people quit because they couldn't level without this one peice of gear. I'm just saying don't apply real life economics to a game that obviously doesn't follow the rules. Stop using economics, inflation/deflation as reasons for rediculous price jumps because it doesn't work. If a house jumped from 100k to 500k in a week people just wouldn't buy it and nobody could really blame them, in game however a stupid cloak goes from 3 mil to 4 mil in under a week and perception still doesn't change, everyone who plays "X" job still needs to have that cloak before they hit "XX" level.
 
Sabia said:
I love how you guys try to apply real life economics to this game. It's not the same so stop trying to do it.

In real life, you have people who have millions of dollars and people who don't. The people who have the cash buy the luxury items like nice V12 Vanquish's, huge houses, Gucci clothing etc. because they can afford it. The middle class folks aren't expected to have these items and get by with Honda Civic's and Old Navy sales rack clothing.

Now go into FFXI. Theif A has 18 mil in the bank and has a scorp harness. Theif B is barely pushing 1 mil in the bank but it still expected to have the scorp harness. The same is in FFXI as it is in real life, some people are good at making money and others aren't but both are expected to have the same gear and theif B will be looked down upon if he doesn't get that Scorp Harness. Sure there are alternatives to the harness but who are you kidding when you say he doesn't 'need' it.

If this games economy were like real life I'd get by with Seer's gear and really wouldn't be expected to have my Austere.
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/clap

First off: I quote the whole thing because the whole thing is worth quoting ^^b

Sabs could not be more correct in that post, although I do attribute one real life economic parallel, and that is Human Greed.

Some can attribute the games shit economy to gil - sellers (I used to lol)
Some can place the blame on supply and demand.
But its Human Greed that takes precedence more often than not, coupled with impatience from buyers with a little too much gil to spread around.
It is something we are all guilty of at one time or another.

Example: You farm and BCNM, craft and camp NM's. Finally, you have enough gil to buy item X from your aforementioned efforts, and it looks like you may have a little more gil to spare when all is said and done.
Go to the AH and place your bid. Denied. Price is jacked.
What do most of us do? We try again, this time we bid a little higher.
Why? because we want this goddamn item we've been busting ass to obtain for so long. Take the above scenario and multiply by 1000,
and we now have a totally whacked out economy.

I suppose it also doesnt help that gil is going really cheap, and those that buy gil dont really have to worry about the extra 200k they bid on a certain item just to speed up the process of purchase.
 
That's true, Sabia, but as Rones said, you having a specific home doesn't affect how others' do their jobs. If you not having that home that suddenly went up in price made others work harder at their jobs/work as hard for less pay, they would suddenly care a lot whether you had that home.

As long as people are willing to buy an item at a higher price, it'll go up. Once the demand of an item no longer meets the supply, the price will drop.

I'll make another example. Let's say that emp. hairpins wind up at a stable 800k for a few weeks. But, suddenly, all the people that need them can't afford them. Most of the people that were willing to spend 800k on them already have them, and now most of the people that don't have them are only willing to pay 700k. There's a few people still spending 800k, but that's few and far between, and not enough to buy all of the ones that are put up for sale. After a few days, the AH starts to send back hairpins. And everyone tries to undercut a bit. Eventually, the buyers catch on and the price goes down. It will keep falling until the demand meets the supply again.

Now, what would cause that? First, the ammount of gil people have on-hand is steadily dropping (or at least, I hope it is - if not, SE's doing what they can to make it happen). So, on average, people are getting poorer and poorer. And eventually, the people that want high-priced items won't be able to buy them at the rate they're being made.

Yes, I know something like this won't happen for a while. But if SE keeps adding gil-sinks and takes away things that make new gil, it will probably happen sometime.
 
Gil sinks don't work because the people who don't have millions in the bank are being affected by them also. So if you decrease the amount of gil in the game by 10% buddy who has 20 mil loses 10% but so does player with 100k. Yes money in real life can effect a person's life like being able to affor a car, or buying nice clothes for a customer support job.

The thing that makes this game so frustrating is that in real life there are alternatives to said job that requires something you can't afford where in the game you have one option, get it or quit.

SE needs to introduce some hard to obtain RA/EX armor. But i'm not talking armor that's equippable at level 50 that you need a full alliance of 75 players to obtain. Something more like you and a party of your level peers can get. Make an RA/EX cloak that has comparable stats to the vermy cloak, make a harness that has comparable stats to the scorp and make them non-sellable. Eliminate the need for such an overflow of gil.

SE needs to re-evaluate the way the game works. There are still things that are considered luxury's like the PCC but SE needs too look at hte harness, hauby and vermy and make reasonable alternatives that your peers will accept. Shit that won't get your name up on the FB as a gimp.

Real life economics don't apply to this game because the real world isn't run by 14 year olds.
 
Make every low % drop, rare camp drop, PCC, rabbit charm, signa etc rare/ex. Make all HQ crafts Rare/ex as well, people have to level the skill if they want the item. Make the rare drop ingredients drop more often so theres not a scarcity leading to high price, equipment would be based on skill, and crafting luck, not rarity of goods. People would have to camp for themselves if they wanted an item. Gil would add up in peoples accounts, so make higher prices on vendor consumables, make pots and food stack to 99 like in all classic final fantasy games. Gil problem solved. Granted.. noone would play anymore, and those who did would still complain, but it would be about skill caps, having to switch guilds, and N00Bs who dont have their clothcraft and goldsmithing up to a proper level to party with.
 
Hmm with some of this logic it might be in in the economy's interest to remove the 3day cap on Dynamis. Every run takes 1m out of circulation permanently (Given to goblin NPC.)

I think blaming 'gilbuyers' is a scapegoat. Anything that goes wrong with the economy is automatically "Gillbuyer! Gilseller!" Newsflash, not that many people are buying gil, you can see this by the plummeting gil prices. (Supply and demand :O )

Look at the Original Post. He was willing to go over 100k higher than the highest listed price and he is not a gillbuyer. If you want the item your going to pay what it's listed for whether you buy gill or farm it, where your funds came from have no bearing on the descision. "Gillbuyers are willing to go higher" is also Bullshit. I'm sorry guys if I just spent REAL money on something I'm certainly not going to just squander it. Hell no.

You know what I think the problem is? Its not greed. Its PRIDE. Its ARROGANCE. Why should thf B be expected to have a Scorpion harness? He can still SATA without it. He can do his job without it. Why should that smn be forced to wear a vermy? She can still summon without it.

People don't look at this game as a game anymore. Its a job. And if your not THE most efficient worker in the hive, get out. We don't want you. Your not allowed to wear decent stuff and play casually. Its the BEST or NOTHING. And SHAME ON YOU if you don't take that step and be the BEST.

Since players are now literally forced to wear certain peices of equipment or be labeled a shitty player, the prices on those items can skyrocket and THE PEOPLE WILL STILL BUY THEM. Why? Reputation > gill.

I think Rones and Sabia are both right. Real economics apply to an extent, yes. Mostly on non-essentials and low level items. Stuff like chainmail set or crystals will always fluctuate based on supply-demand. Its the luxery items that are now necessities that get this price jack. That jack is not going to go down because supply will never meet demand.
 
Sabia said:
Gil sinks don't work because the people who don't have millions in the bank are being affected by them also. So if you decrease the amount of gil in the game by 10% buddy who has 20 mil loses 10% but so does player with 100k. Yes money in real life can effect a person's life like being able to affor a car, or buying nice clothes for a customer support job.

The thing that makes this game so frustrating is that in real life there are alternatives to said job that requires something you can't afford where in the game you have one option, get it or quit.

SE needs to introduce some hard to obtain RA/EX armor. But i'm not talking armor that's equippable at level 50 that you need a full alliance of 75 players to obtain. Something more like you and a party of your level peers can get. Make an RA/EX cloak that has comparable stats to the vermy cloak, make a harness that has comparable stats to the scorp and make them non-sellable. Eliminate the need for such an overflow of gil.

SE needs to re-evaluate the way the game works. There are still things that are considered luxury's like the PCC but SE needs too look at hte harness, hauby and vermy and make reasonable alternatives that your peers will accept. Shit that won't get your name up on the FB as a gimp.

Real life economics don't apply to this game because the real world isn't run by 14 year olds.
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So you know Sabs, its what WoW did .... any "elite" item you get, is not bought, or traded. Quest Only!

Another note, its not S-E that fucked up the prices, its the people who play the game I think, what S-E did was make the items needed for the synthes, like the V cloak, or the cloth for V cloak, un-atainable by the masses of people, meaning 1-2 mid level people not whole alliance or very high level.
 
Blah supposed to be V claw, or Cloth for V cloak! Too many Vs
 
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