A Possible Solution to the Gil-seller Problem

[Reauland]

Hi everyone!

I've been giving this a lot of thought lately, and I think I may have thought of a way to eliminate one of the headaches that everyone has to deal with sooner or later, namely gil-sellers.

My solution? Convince SE to start selling gil themselves.

Yah . . . I know it may sound a little crazy, but hear me out. Here are the advantages that SE has that would run the enterprises that are currently selling gil out of business:

1) SE doesn't have to farm it. They don't have to camp NMs, log, mine, etc. All they have to do is create it with a few simple keystrokes.

2) They can underbid any gil-seller there is. Why? See point 1.

Just think - this simple policy change would allow people who wish to buy gil (not that I'm advocating that) to do so from a legitimate source that doesn't by its very nature complicate others' enjoyment of the game. Let em buy all the gil they want. Let em buy themselves stoopid if they want!

Now I know that there are some of you already thinking that this would only inflate the economy more. I don't think so, and here's why:

1) We'd only be competing against true players for NM camps and such. Why do we camp NMs (other than the fun of it ) anyway? For either drops/quests that we need, or for drops we can sell. Without gil-sellers monopolizing juicy spawns, anyone could camp an NM long enough to get what they were after, often with the cooperation of others who were in similar need. That's a powerful control on the economy - less market demand (AH).

2) A monopoly would be broken. Whether they are working together or not, gil-sellers are in effect a monopoly. Best example I can think of (maybe cuz of my level ) is the Stroper Chyme. Since they get the majority of the drops, they basically can set the price wherever they want on Sniper's Rings. Once the stranglehold on supply is broken, we'd see a greater number making it directly into the hands of players who desire one. Competition at the AH would take care of the rest, causing the price to fluctuate in a more natural way.

Lastly, there's the question of ethics to address, namely, "If SE starts sellin cheap gil, should I buy some?"

That's up to you. Personally, I look on it as, if not cheating, then at least a rather sorry way for those among us with more money than others to get over on the less privileged. That's just me, though. I think that it would still be easy to spot and avoid gil-buyers for those who share my feelings on that topic. So if you're the type that likes to fast track thru the game and avoid some of its greater challenges, go ahead - buy your gil from the company that made the game. Just don't think you're in any way superior to those of us who choose not to.

Anyway, that's my two-cents' worth. I'd love to get some feedback from everyone and see if there's anyone out there that thinks this is something we could somehow approach SE with.

Thanks for your time :wink:

 

[Pascal]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:Inflation

 

[Rones]

Like Pascal points out, this would make the inflation problem much worse. Trying to underbid IGE would result in a price war between the two and since both have a large supply of gil (SE having infinite), you would quickly see the value of gil per dollar get really out of hand. It would eventually beat IGE, but not without causing a inflation hike of such scale we couldn't even imagine (Imagine being able to buy 1mill gil from SE for $1). :x

Plus, all that is much more difficult than simply sending out gms to hunt down the gil sellers if SE really wanted to combat the problem.

 

[Faedryth]

On the contrary, this would cause even more inflation than we are currently seeing. Just a quick review, inflation is caused when there is more "new money" coming in than "old money" going out. "New money" is gil drops off beastman and such, selling to vendors, quest reward money, etc. The ways in which money is removed from the economy are few and far between. Buying from vendors, AH fees, quests, and Dynamis Hourglasses to name a few...i cant think of many more. Inflation is caused because more people are selling to vendors than buying from them, more people are getting gil drops than they are spending on AH fees, more people are getting gil from quests than are paying for quests.

Gil-sellers are not inflating the economy at all. They are simply taking money from people, and selling it for real money. The same gil is just being spent. Like you give me a dollar, I turn around and buy a water. You then go back to the store, buy something, and get that dollar as change. That dollar stayed in the economy. Now taking that dollar out of the economy, by ripping it or destroying it in some way, would make every subsequent dollar worth a tiny insignificant bit more. Take 100 billion dollars out, and it would make a dent. What you are saying is that the SE should essentially create a printing press for the dollar, and not take any of it out. This means that massive quantities of "new money" would be put into the economy, thereby making each subsequent gil worth less, meaning that you would have to charge more to make an equivalent profit, meaning that those who dont buy the gil from SE would be, in essence, FUCKED!

If people are upset over the higher prices, there really is very little that can be done. SE tried to compensate by raising AH fees, but people bitched. There is only one way they could stop the inflation, and that is to halt or significantly stop the influx of "new gil", or start taking a huge amount of gil out of the economy. Example: Create a higher AH fee, stop beastman gil drops, stop quest gil rewards, etc. Could you imagine the rampage that would occur? Not the warrior WS mind you, the mob anger that would result. Sadly, there is very little SE could do.

As per the gil-sellers, the only way to really stop them is to stop buying their goods. They would eventually be forced to lower their prices. Sadly this will never happen either, as there are PLENTY of people willing to pay high prices, because once you are high level, gil is relatively easy to come by. People who started recently got the shaft in that regard, as even things that were cheap when I first started in PS2 release, are enourmously pricey comparatively. True, your idea would stop the gil-sellers, but in the process, would utterly and completely rape the economy of any semblance of normalcy.

Fae

 

[Pascal]

Another way to put it is image if we gave everyone in the US a Billion dollars. Would we all be super rich? Nope, because of the surplus of cash, everyone would just raise prices, but you wouldn’t mind spending 1000.00 for a bar of soap.

Supply and Demand is only one factor that sets prices. A consumer’s willingness to spend money for an item is also a big factor. If an item sells at a set price, there is no incentive to lower that price.

Another thing to consider is SE must keep the game fair to all, not all of us (and I would say the majority of us) have the ability to spend 20 to 50 dollars every two weeks buying Gil, but we are forced to deal with the consequences that it has on the market.

 

[Taurothar]

Inflation: The rise in the prices of goods and services, as happens when spending increases relative to the supply of goods on the market -in other words, too much money chasing too few goods.

Thats exactly what the OP is saying right there. There will be a much lower demand for goods being bought, because people can actually go farm those goods instead of buying them. When there is less demand for a high ticket item, there will be more listed at once on the AH, and people will undercut to sell faster, rather than for more. The prices will fall and eventually level out at a reasonable spot. I've taken several economics courses and I know well the fuctionality of supply and demand on prices, which, btw, is why I haven't been nearly as outraged at gas prices during a war with the people who supply the oil we use coupled with the higher popularity of gas-guzzling big-rigs such as the H2.

I feel that this game's economy would be very well off if the sellers were non-existant and players could once again farm the stuff that they need to enjoy the game. I don't know anyone who farmed the two archer's rings (probably more just in case of failures during synthing) and other materials for their own sniper's rings. It is rediculous to compete with three teams of sellers who, if SE followed Sony's lead, created an in-house RMT system, wouldn't be able to profit enough to justify a multi-million dollar industry.

I don't believe in buying gil, selling gil, or anything but the simple fact is that it IS part of this game, and WILL NOT go away. The only way for it to be killed is to make money useless, ie. more and more rare/ex stuff and questable armors, or to have in-company RMT. This idea, however, would definately 100% piss people off to the point of leaving for a different game. And I know myself that I wouldn't want to be in a game where the rich do better and the poor struggle to farm, but that's life.

I used to play card games, such as Magic the Gathering, DBZ CCG and the like, and in those games, it irritated me to see that the only people who could really beat me, were the ones who could afford to just come in and drop $150 every few weeks on a shit load of good stuff that I couldn't even come close to getting. That made me hate people who do shit the easy way when others hafta work for what they get, and maybe sacrifice a lot to get what they needed to compete.

The point of this whole post is to say that the OP has a good idea, and it would succeed in reducing the numbers of the sellers that still exist, BUT it would also ruin the entire game, as you'd have 2 sets of people, the people who buy gil, and the people who don't buy gil. The buyers will have all the hot-shit, and would dominate ballista (provided they could actually play) based on their equip alone. The non-buyers will take a back seat, and ride the game the way it was meant to be, but with a hatred for the upper class citizens of Vana'diel. Also, the people who worked hard to get where they are now, would probably quit once this class of hot-shit buyers ended up where they are for .01% of the work.

edit: Grammer and Spelling.

 

[Rones]

I don't believe it would cause the two seperate groups you are describing Taur. Those gil buyers (from SE) would bring so much money into the game and pay loads more gil for those goods to those doing the farming. Thus the extra gil trickles down and soon everyone is part of it. Inflated prices is a two way street, you pay more for goods but also get more when you sell them. Those farmers would earn more from selling their goods, but also pay more when they want to buy something. So they would remain rather unchanged figuring an average inflation percentage on all goods is about the same. Everyone would end up with excessive amounts of gil that isn't worth much.

 

[CmdrFly]

It's a good idea, but it's been suggested before and unfortunately you're basically pushing water uphill with a stick.

SE simply cannot afford the public embarassment of going completely switchfoot on their ToS, which blatantly states that buying / selling gil is wrong and anyone who involves themselves with either will be punished. If SE suddenly ran some white-out over that line and started selling gil themselves, their reputation as a respectable developer would be completely flushed.

TANGENT: I say 'respectable developer' because god damnit, I love this freaking game. I'm a big, big nerd and I play a lot of games, but ever since I started getting into this one, I haven't touched another title for months (aside from breathing essentials; HL2, D3:RoE.. and... well I guess that's it). I don't care who you are, SE did a great job making this game enjoyable, and they continue that with consistent maintenance and (mostly) free expansions.

Imagine if George Dubya, after a month of sending troops into Iraq, suddenly said, "you know what guys? come on back, let's forget these shenanigans". The public would think he completely lost his mind.

There is no guaranteed solution to gil-sellers, just like there is no guaranteed solution to crime. You can prevent some of it and you can postpone the rest, but it will never end. Personally, gilsellers and gilbuyers have never affected me that much - if I need money, I'll craft or camp an NM. Just like they do.

I'm somewhat looking forward to the results of our Ordelles gilsellers returning - maybe they'll normalize the price of Archer's once again (hopefully back down to 500k, but that's pretty wishful thinking), so sniper's dont bounce 40k+ in a day. I hate to say it, but I have little remorse for the legit Ordelles campers, as they're the ones that jumped the price of Archer's up to 610k+ once the gilsellers got banned.

Just to clear my ass (irl, clearing my ass requires the services of a gas-powered hedge trimmer... but that's beside the point), I would probably raise the price of Archer's as well if I camped Ordelles after Nuki and friends got banned; however, that's pending the one minor requirement that I've lost my mind and suddenly want to go camp Chymes.

 

[Asplode]

IGE doesnt fabricate gil, they simply farm it, the gil was already in the game.

If SE made an assload with 'a few clicks' it would be new money, and as stated, inflation beyond your wildest dreams.

Go after fishbotters instead. NPC sales generate 'new money' into servers that didnt exist before...

Besides, I don't think SE cares too much about gil-sellers in the first place. No matter which way you look at it, people play FFXI longer when gil is harder to obtain, thus more monthly fees garnered...

 

[Faedryth]

Rones I see the way you are thinking, but I can guarantee it wouldnt work like that. I mean think about it. Most people cant make a steady income. People think 50k an hour is awesome! That really cant bring in enough gil to purchase big ticket things. Take for example a nice piece of gear, the Peacock Charm. About 18-20 million gil. Say SE started selling gil, the first people who got it would purchase these things as fast as they popped up (which is already rare). I guarantee, this price would shoot up to 40 mil in 2 weeks. Why? Because gil is so common...people have no qualms dropping that kinda cash on it. People would start powerleveling crafts like there is no tomorrow, buying all the uber gear, so on. In order to compensate for the rising prices, those who dont buy the gil would have to start jacking up their prices. Because the charm jumped to 40 million, double what it once was, the person farming crafting items has to double their price, and with the people buying gil, they have no problem paying it. Well now take into account the person who cant make a steady income, or is just starting in the game. Try buying a piece of leather armor for 10k, when you start off with 50 gil.

When I read through that, it sounds reasonable though. Double everythings price right? Wrong. Things dont work like that. How many peacock charms appear. One every other day IF it drops. How many cuttings drop, how many beehive chips, how many gold beastcoins, and so on? Double the price of those things, and there would still be a ton, so you could only go so high. Now triple the price of PCC. There is still only going to be one every other day with luck. Quadruple it. Eventually, because of the massive inflation, people would be charging 100 mil for this. 200 mil for Kraken Club.

If you cant see what would happen, then you really need to sit down and think about it. When 1 million gil costs 5 bucks from SE, there are an assload of peopel who would buy it, all those "buying gil is wrong" people might have a change of heart, seeing as they are 1 mil away from their SH and it only is $5 right?

Taurothar: http://www.qcdn.org/viewtopic.php?t=11817 Do you really think that would help? This would become MUCH more common in that event.

Fae

 

[Reauland]

You all make good points.

I tend to think of things in the long view. I myself would fully expect to see an absolutely unprecedented inflation spike were SE to take this path; however, I believe that given sufficient time, it would level out to an acceptable level. Another added benefit of this would be (I believe anyway) that fewer people would see any need to buy gil at all. True, there will always be those few spoiled rich kids (be they 12 years of age or 30 ) that would still think they could lord their daddy's money over someone else, but I suspect that there are quite a few individuals out there that recognize what the gil-sellers are offering is essentially mafia-style "protection" and acquiescing to it in resignation.

In short, I believe that by breaking the eggs once, SE could make omelets perpetually.

As to SE having to eat some crow regarding their ToS, that's entirely true, but the fact is they're already in a fairly embarrassing spot having a policy in place that they either cannot enforce or simply choose not to.

Regarding the concept of existent gil vs. created gil, keep this in mind. All gil is created. There is no more a predetermined limit to what's in circulation than there is a predetermined number of Orcs in Fort Ghelsba. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that there is no Vana'diel Reserve minting the money that we're lifting off gobs and gaining from NPCs.

I thank you one and all for the feedback. All I really ask is that you mull this over with a few friends, as I would love for us to find a way to return this wonderful game to the full spirit which its creators intended.

 

[Pascal]

I blame elitist players more than I do Gil Sellers and Buyers. Placing the expectations on a first time player to have there Leaping Boots at level 10 is ridicules. There is a difference between having good up to date gear and having luxury items. Yes some time an expensive item is a requirement for your job, but not all multi million dollar items are. Hair Pin +1’s are a good example. They are almost never worth the extra gil, but I have had people complain because I didn’t have a +1 Hair Pin, even though I had 2 SETS of +1 Rings that were raising my stats that actually effected my job.

 

[Faedryth]

Reauland, I have thought it over. Its been questioned before, and so we have (many of us) had ample time to ponder the outcome. It simply would not work out. There would be those people who bought gil, and those who dont. Those who dont will always have to find another means to make it, or spend their life in-game farming.

As per the minting thing, how there is no set mint, you are entirely correct. For the most part that is. Think about how much gil you get off goblin drops. Leveling and such, maybe like 5k every couple hours? Now think about a person synthing rusty gear ALL day long. 3k per NPC. Think about people fishing ALL DAY LONG. I have no clue how much NPC's buy fish for, but as SE keeps nerfing it, it must be rather high. These are the things creating the inflation. If SE wants to stop it, they can do something about those. People camping NM's or farming high value items arent hurting the economy in the slightest. You guys dont think 500k for a Sniper Ring (100k loss by the way for the crafter) is a fair amount? I sure as hell do. That thing will last the rest of the game! If every "gil seller", of which I am sure plenty are accused of being without actually doing so, were banished, Archer Rings wouldnt go down one penny. If people are still paying 600k, then people are still charging 600k. The great thing they do, is they dont undercut the shit outta one another. At least I dont think they do as the prices remains pretty constant.

If SE did this, then the only thing they could do would be to put in some countermeasure, some way to pull a massive amount of money out of the economy.

For instance, they could do something like I hear WoW does. You have to purchase your gear from NPC's. But then we are turning the game into WoW, which i dont find to be a good thing. Were kinda set in how things are working, and not much is going to change that.

Fae

 

[Answa~]

Um... SE buys gil from gil-sellers, bans the sender of the gil... rinse, repeat... The end.

 

[Pascal]

Though I know they won't, I liked to see this taken to a court battle over copyright. Get some clarification on the matter.

 

[Falsey]

What would really change things is if we all quit for a month, or even 2 months. Now dont stone me yet, but qutting will do 2 things really.

1. Send a message to S-E. We can let them know how displeased we are. I mean would you keep going to a restaurant if it had bad service, smelly bathrooms and unclean staff just because it had good food? I dont think I would, and most wouldnt either.

2. Ruin gil sellers. If no one buys their product for a month or two from our server atleast, it would severely dent them. On the other had, they would just drop their prices when we all came back, and those of us who do buy the gil, would just buy it anyway.

I guess the point is, we would really send a message to S-E telling them how their "blind eye" policy is starting to wear thin, and punishing the real, honest and dedicated players at the same time as the gil sellers, just isnt going to fly anymore!!

 

[Seawolf]

Another added benefit of this would be (I believe anyway) that fewer people would see any need to buy gil at all. True, there will always be those few spoiled rich kids (be they 12 years of age or 30 ) that would still think they could lord their daddy's money over someone else

Dominant characteristic of Hume: ENVY

When people see those few spoiled rich kids running around with kickass gears, envy will get the best of them. Most people are lazy and always take a shortcut if there is one. A good example of this is the game Gunbound, where the company Softnyx sells in-game currency. I've played that game and let me tell you, even newbs have armor that worth as much if not more than what I could make in 3 months.

SE could provide this service in new, isolated servers like Sony did with EQ. But then, who would want to play in those servers and be labelled as "possible gilbuyer" and "noob"?

All bad things in this world have a common root: humans. I combat gilselling by making people recognize how unfair and pathetic gilbuying is. That way I might be able to convince a few people who are on the borderline of to-buy/not-to-buy to choose the latter

/em waits for Mistaya's response that defends RMT

 

[Faedryth]

Shit do it for a day. See if someone can arrange it. Im in...lol...cause im kinda not playing for a long time now. Try and arrange a boycott...would send a huge message.

Fae

 

[Darkdante]

I thought you all knew SE already sold gil?

How else did they know the identities of all 800 gil sellers?

woooo woooo 0.o

hehe :twisted:

 

[Kelsilv]

Haha, nah, I don't think they sell it yet. They just get a nice fat cut of the profits.