A tale of war and politics [was: Racist Japanese Players]

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[quote="DalecooperThe bottom line is that politics are an underlying dynamic in everything we do[/quote]
This is the most depressing thing I've read in a while. I always manage to shove that fact somewhere deep in my head, but it finds ways to peep out occasionaly. I hate being reminded I'm a number in some twisted powermongers demographic.
 
In my opinion, these have nothing to do in this game (or should have nothing to do, nothing is perfect).
In this case it doesn't matter what your opinion is, it matters what the facts are. The fact is that Politics are the underlying basis for most human interaction. It's irrelevant what "should be" in this case.
Yep, but it's a RPG ... you're not supposed to be what your are in real life. (I know, it can be difficult, but that's a part of why ppl play this type of games).
That is incorrect. In rpgs, in may people's opinion, you aren't supposed to bw WHO you are in "real life". There is an important distinvtion between what you wrote and what I've been writing about. You cannot change, ever, what you are, that being:human. Even in this game, Notice how ALL the races are anthropomorphic (In the shape of a human) Galkas, mithras, and tarus ALL have 2 legs, arms, eyes, etc. They represent exaggerated and isolated ideals of the human condition. Imagine being a dog. Trick idea, you can't truly imagine it. This is simply because you can actually posethat question. You are too evlovled and cannot escape, ever, that you are indeed human.
In this game, you pretend to ba another human-like character, and being human ourselves, you never make it far away from the core. Don't deny it, it only causes confusion. Embrace it, and work from there.
Racism, xenophobia and generalization took a great part in the worst evenements which happens in the last century
Damned straight. So how is criticizing the French racism? I am criticizing a country, filled with many races. Japan isn't filled with many races, but their race isn't exclusive to their island. I criticize nations and peoples, not races. Races are only significant in their socio-political contexts (i.e. why black people will probably never trust white Americans)
You're right, but do you think making some "smart" WWII comments will help ? Or when someone complain about stereotypes, giving him more stereotypes ? Some ideas should not be used, even for making a joke.
Like Farys said, stick to individuals ... some are nice, others are not, some are racist, some are elitist ... great, that is why the blist command exist.
Here's the problems with tihs. I'm not attempting to FIX the problem. I'm exposing what the problem is, and where its roots lie, then offering my opinion on it. It is my opinion that more nations should be greatful to the U.S. It is fact that regardless of what any of us believe, the actions of our nations, which are predominantly expressed through war, matter even to day in shaping the behavior of world citizenry. That's very nice to judge people individually. What I was stating are the underlying motivations for why individuals do the things that they do.
Racism, in its core, is not an core human belief. You can change it. You don't like it? do what you can to change it. I do. You can at least try to change many social dynamics. I do all the time. You WILL NOT change the role of politics in human behavior. It doesn't matter where you THINK they belong. It doesn't matter if you LIKE it or not. You cannot change their basic impoortance and involvement. Use them as a tool instead. USe them to remove what in society you don't like. Don't use them in this game if you like. Be a victim of them. Be an observer of them. That's your choice. It isn't you're choice whether or not they exist in the game. And because they exist in real life, they make it into the game because regardless of what people are pretending to be, we are all HUMANS pretending to be other people and are forever bound to inorexible human qualities. This is fact.
 
Dalecooper said:
It is my opinion that more nations should be greatful to the U.S.

This is a loaded comment. Did you know that today marks the 59th anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima in which the US killed or wounded an estimated 160,000 of Japan's citizens?
 
I didn't know that. Interesting. I am about to Hiroshima my Japanese test. Coincidence? Revenge? Humor in really poor taste? (the latter)
I didn't know that, but I did know that December 7th will be the 63rd anniversary of the bombing of Pearl Harbor. They DID bomb us first, and we would have one either way, and in a sense of irony, dropping the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima prevented the land invasion of Japan and thus saved a projected 6 million lives.
The whole thing, of course is unfortunate. My writings in this post are more of an exploration of "because X happened, Y is happening now, all made possible by A, B, and C"
World War II should never have happened. I wish that there wasn't any war period. It's really a bad situation that you have to nuke a couple of cities in order to SAVE lives. What happened happened though. America has done some extremely shitty stuff. More good than bad.
Like judging a person, you take the good with a bad. Every person has done bad stuff. If I made my friendship criteria "People who haven't done bad stuff" I'd have no friends. The good outwieghs the bad.
 
I highly doubt you would of said the same thing had the situation been reversed and it was 160,000 american civillian lives lost in comparison to a couple of hundred Japanese lives. Lets say you guys bombed them first, on a naval base, during a war and not against their citizens. So japan comes back and bombs not one but 2 of your major cities killing hundreads of thousands of american lives not even envolved in the war. Not only just killing your citizens though but with an atomic weapon that's effects can still be seen in everyday life 59 years later. Lets make this very clear...They drop not 1 bomb, but 2 knowing the effects it would have on Human beings.

I'm pretty that comment you just posted would of sounded a lot different.
 
That isn't the point.
That isn't the point at all.
"Lets say we bombed them first" ????
Why don't we just say black is white and garbage is food. A "role-reversal" isn't at ALL appropriate.
If WE had imperialist designs on Japan and THEY retaliated, we wouldn't have ANY RIGHT to be mad, because WE started it. If I were the Japanese, I'd be pissed that Hirohito and his parliament decided to bomb Pearl Harbor and caused the shitstorm that ensued (Our invovlement in WWII). Its like NOW how I'm pissed that George W Bush for invading Iraq and giving many people a reson to retalliate against us. Maybe not a good reason, but a reason.
Look, we FINISHED a war that WE didn't start in WWII. Innocent people were killed and that is terrible! It NEVER should have happened. The whole damned war shouldn't have happened! We chose to, by necessity for the survival of our nation, to kill 160,000 instead of 6 million. 6 million is 37.5 times more than 160,000!
WE are not the bad guys for protecting our way of life and finishing a war we did not start!
 
Dale, there should be a clear distinction between civilian and military targets of opporitunity.

Pearl Harbour was a Naval Base . . . Hiroshima and Nagasaki were cities. No matter which way you slice it, that wasn't proper and there's really no defensable position for the actions of the US.

And we're ready to open the next can of worms . . . modern US foreign policy.

*covers ears*
 
Dirgesong said:
And we're ready to open the next can of worms . . . modern US foreign policy.


Ugh. I don't want to start this....... I would end up heavily involved, and heavily flamed. :twisted:
 
You've got the matches . . . I have fuel . . .

as long as no one takes it personal we can have all manner of slanderous fun!!

It's FRIDAY!

Anything goes today

:lol:
 
Dalecooper said:
They DID bomb us first, and we would have one either way

I'm not an american but this is what really, really, really irks me. The world should be more grateful? Right....

I'm guessing by the 'one' that you wrote you ment 'won.' It was the arrogance contained in your last post that caused me to pull the roll reversal and it seems to of struck a cord. War is a terrible thing and should be avoided at all costs, you can't change the past but you can sure learn from it. Think about what you post next time when you want to make an arrogant statement such as "The world should be more grateful." And if it's not what you ment you wouldn't of made the above quote.

The world has more of a reason to pissed of at the US rather than grateful. I have nothing against americans but I do not agree with their government. Granted I don't agree with the Canadian government either but we're not the ones flexing our intimidating (or lack of for Canada) muscles and telling the world the way they should play and that the states is allowed to have big toys (nukes) but nobody else can. The US has become a bully in the last 4 years and there's really no denying that fact.
 
Sabia said:
War is a terrible thing and should be avoided at all costs, you can't change the past but you can sure learn from it. Think about what you post next time when you want to make an arrogant statement such as "The world should be more grateful." And if it's not what you ment you wouldn't of made the above quote.

The world has more of a reason to pissed of at the US rather than grateful. I have nothing against americans but I do not agree with their government. Granted I don't agree with the Canadian government either but we're not the ones flexing our intimidating (or lack of for Canada) muscles and telling the world the way they should play and that the states is allowed to have big toys (nukes) but nobody else can. The US has become a bully in the last 4 years and there's really no denying that fact.

Sorry Sabia. I absolutely love ya, and think that you are one of the coolest people on this board. But..........

1. War is horrible and should be avoided, but can't. Too many crazy people with power trips. If the US did not step in during WWII we would be living in a different world right now. The Allies were loosing badly to Hitler, and wouldn't have lasted much longer. So for that the world should be more thankful...... Just like we should be more thankful to the French for helping us get our independance from England.

2.It is a fact that there will always be a world superpower. The US happens to be it right now. As a superpower, there are cirtain responsibilities. You may not agree with some of our decisions, but who else would you have? How are we intimidating? We actually fight for the good of mankind, and peace. But what about Iraq??? That is not peaceful!!
Well sometimes you have to go to war to get peace.

See, I'm guessing that most of you don't aggree with our decision to go to war. Some feel like you were lied to. Some feel that it was personal between Bush and Sadam. Here's the thing..... IT DOESN'T MATTER.

People don't realize that it was LUCK that they were born in a free country, you don't realize what it is like to not have freedom. If you disagreed with the goverment in Iraq..... well, you died horribly. Your vote would be meaningless. Infact, if you were born into the wrong ethnic group, you were killed. Weather he had nukes or not, this man needed to be removed.

So wait for the UN right?? - You want to talk about politics and empty rhetoric........ Let's talk about the UN. See the leader of the UN is so concerned with making the Arab nations happy for France's personal game, that he veto's peacekeeping requests in emerging democratic nations.


Dirge..... Why did you get me started /sigh
 
Because I'm a firestarter

anyways before I leave my office for the weekend lets get one thing straight about the US move to attack Iraq.

The UN sent inspectors, they found nothing.

So Dubya calls bullshit . . . bombs the holy hell out of the country, kills countless innocent people and with all his had work finds . . .

nothing

So what is the point of attacking Iraq?
You know, when I listened to Bill Hicks two years ago I thought that it was poinient for the Gulf War . . . but it's kind of depressing that those politicially fueled comedy rants would become so topical all over again.

"For God, and Country, and Because he's a Hitler, and here a fetus, what ever you the apathetic masses need"

Really . . . I know Sadam was a bad guy, but there was no reason for the US to start that war besides bad blood
 
Right now the world should absolutely be more greatful to us, but I would agree that given the policies being enacted, this may change. Its why I'm doing everything I can to put Bush out of power.
And seriously, how does the world have more of a reason to be pissed off at us than be greatful? We stopped the Nazis (not alone, but we were most CERTAINLY the greatest contributing factor). Would you prefer that the Jewish race be destroyed? Of course you don't! At least, I should hope you don't.
We supply vast amounts of aid to nations across the world. More than any other nation does by far. We enable countries like Japan to spend money on technology on a scale that they couldn't if they had to provide for their own defense the way we provide for ours. The list of what America does FOR the world goes on and on and on. And yes, we have done things TO the world.
The US has become a bully in the last 4 years and there's really no denying that fact.
There really isn't. You're right. I seriously hope that Bush is unseated and America can earn back the respect it's lost. I understand it is SO MUCH EASIER to criticize than praise. The irony is that every time America fails, it's all over everything, and everyone knows. Most of the wonderful things America does goes unsung and underappreciated.
I'm guessing by the 'one' that you wrote you ment 'won.'
Yeah, you're right my bad. Sometimes I do that, I don't know why.
It doesnt change the fact that it's true. It wasn't arrogance, it was strategic fact. Let me explain:
By the time the bomb was ready, the Allied forces had demolished most of the Japanese fleet and had gained significant ground against the Japanese. All that they had conquered was taken by the US. All the islands and such (Battles of Midway and Iwo Jima to mention only two). All Japan had left was its native islands. We had an overwhelming force poised to invade, and they had very little means by which to protect themselves. The thought was that, given the Japanese mentality, they would fight until no able man was left. To be fair, America would be precisely the same. So we had two options available to us. 1) Invade Japan and 6 million die or 2) drop the bombs and hope that such an awesome display of firepower ends the war. People were going to die either way. Japan was NOT going to surrender even though they knew that they had already lost. Look at the kamikaze fighters: they would rather die than lose.
Saying we would have won anyway was not an arrogant statement, but a practical one.
The world shouldn't be greatful that we bombed hiroshima, the world should be greatful that we ended the imperialistic designs of the Axis powers. Aren't you? Would you rather be living under a facist boot-heel? I am proud that my grandfather was one of the prosecutors involved in the Nuremburg trials. Those were, for those who don't know, the tirals against Nazi war criminals who did terrible, dispicable things against humanity.
Even given all the good we've done, I don't think we can ever make up for what we did to the native Americans, but that isn't the world's concern. It is an internal sin and our own to attone for. By and large the worl is a much better place with us than without. The proof is out there, you just have to find it.
 
Ezekiel, I think we were posting at the same time and I just read your post.
I essentially agree.
Its funny, we were posting responses at the same time and came up with mostly the same thing.
Though I think you support the war in Iraq more than I do. I support the end of tyrrany. We ended Saddam's tyrrany. I just don't think we did it as a first step to end ALL tyrrany. Or for any other really good reason like that.
 
Dirgesong said:
Because I'm a firestarter

anyways before I leave my office for the weekend lets get one thing straight about the US move to attack Iraq.

The UN sent inspectors, they found nothing.

So Dubya calls bullshit . . . bombs the holy hell out of the country, kills countless innocent people and with all his had work finds . . .

nothing

So what is the point of attacking Iraq?
You know, when I listened to Bill Hicks two years ago I thought that it was poinient for the Gulf War . . . but it's kind of depressing that those politicially fueled comedy rants would become so topical all over again.

"For God, and Country, and Because he's a Hitler, and here a fetus, what ever you the apathetic masses need"

Really . . . I know Sadam was a bad guy, but there was no reason for the US to start that war besides bad blood

Did you read my post?? Who cares about the nukes?!?! The man needed to be removed for humanitys sake.
 
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