A world without religion

Uzor

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Uzor
So, I'm writing a paper for a class I'm taking about how religion has affected the world, and what a world without religion would look like.

Despite me not being in the least religious, I'd have to say the world would actually be worse without religion.

Any input or argument for one or the other? I need someone to discuss and argue with for ideas of what to include. So far I'm thinking of including the following:


  1. How "power" would look like. As in, would the leading men be any different when a church no longer has had any influence?
  2. Cultural differences
  3. View on homosexuality
  4. Views on women
  5. Repression of science
  6. moral/ethical differences
  7. view and value of life
  8. view of self-preservation such as suicide
  9. torture
  10. war
  11. murder
Any other things I could include?

I have 7 weeks to write it, so give me ideas!
 
Not really got many ideas but I'm curious to see the outcome.
 
I'll... come back and do an extensive reply to this later, when I'm not getting ready for class.
 
I don't think the world would be worse without religion. I think it'd be worth without faith, true, but religion itself has caused so much destruction and damage and narrow minded fools... but faith can lead to happy people and happy lives, but I'd still want those people open minded to other people's ideas.

Maybe kind of akin to how they said in Dogma.. what was it.. "I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant."

So ya, I kinda see Religion as not very progressive but faith bringing people vast happiness in life.

Though, I will say I think Religion was necessary back in the beginning of humanity with a civilization. They played their key part in founding art and sciences even and vast amounts of important things such as guidelines for people to live. Now if only each and every person could live with deep moral guidelines and respect other people enough to let them be without intentionally causing them harm for self profits. We could do away with religion (as it is now) and governments and have a paradise hehe. But that's an unlikely idealistic future.

OH, realize the first religions didn't actually repress women at all. As I recall, they have found vast artifacts that actually revered women (pregnant ones) as divine and such since they brought life into the world :P not sure when it started it was only later that women were focused to be blamed such as in Christianity where women are generally the "sinners". The lego bible has taught me well! (haw joking of course, as I've read the bible prior to seeing that funny website)
 
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I'm cynical enough to believe that everything that happens in this world is within human nature and removing religion from the equation would simply transpose the excuse. People do horrible things in the name of religion, but they probably would do those same things without it and give it a different cause.

However, religion does seem to be the most vehement and polarizing reason for doing anything wrong in the name of "what's right". The truth boils down to the fact that any religious zealot believes on some level that by doing what is understood to be their god's will, they will be rewarded heavily in this life or next. Ultimately, that just seems like greed to me, which is a cardinal deadly sin in most of those religions, ironically enough.

I could go on for days about how religion has affected the world, both positively and negatively, but I won't. I'll simply say that by all the "proof" for and against, and by all the good and bad in the name of god, one is simply safer remaining agnostic with a creative idea. As previously mentioned, it's easier to change an idea.
 
All I'll say on religion, being brought up as Catholic but not feeling religious in the slightest, is that Faith is a great thing if you have it, you should appreciate it, and know how lucky you are to possess something that people lacking faith crave. To know there's someone watching you, judging you, and there for you when your biological life ends must make certain things a hell of a lot easier. For all the problems religion brings, it gets many through very dark times.
 
I think it would be more interesting to try and look at how civilization would develop over the past 5000 years. Religion shaped, probably, every aspect of our lives to some degree, not just the controversial stuff. Would families be the same? Would people even get married?
 
I'm cynical enough to believe that everything that happens in this world is within human nature and removing religion from the equation would simply transpose the excuse. People do horrible things in the name of religion, but they probably would do those same things without it and give it a different cause.

However, religion does seem to be the most vehement and polarizing reason for doing anything wrong in the name of "what's right". The truth boils down to the fact that any religious zealot believes on some level that by doing what is understood to be their god's will, they will be rewarded heavily in this life or next. Ultimately, that just seems like greed to me, which is a cardinal deadly sin in most of those religions, ironically enough.

I could go on for days about how religion has affected the world, both positively and negatively, but I won't. I'll simply say that by all the "proof" for and against, and by all the good and bad in the name of god, one is simply safer remaining agnostic with a creative idea. As previously mentioned, it's easier to change an idea.
I would love if you mention both the positive and negative. I can name a bunch of positive and negative as well, but I would like more insight and other's view on it.
 
I think it would be more interesting to try and look at how civilization would develop over the past 5000 years. Religion shaped, probably, every aspect of our lives to some degree, not just the controversial stuff. Would families be the same? Would people even get married?
Which is what I'm doing. How religion has affected the world (And as such, shaped it), and what it would look like now if it didn't have religion.
 
Was going to second TG's "No Comment" but first need to Second Taur's
removing religion from the equation would simply transpose the excuse
Anyone naive enough to think that religion is to blame for the worlds problems needs to get their head checked, another scapegoat would simply fill its spot.

Not going to look at this subject again, can already see where it will end up.
 
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Religion is something many people can turn to when they have nothing else. It gives people hope for their being something else that science cannot explain, something good hopefully.

Like if you have a loved one, dying of a terminal illness. All you can do is have faith that somehow, something inexplicable can happen to sway things in your or their favor. Thats something which science cant really provide.

Me personally im not religious, but if i were put in a terrible situation where its the only hope i ha of getting out, perhaps i would, and many others would too i dont see anything wrong with that. Imagine a world where a doctor told you that your son had 3 months to live at the most, a world where miracles dont exist and science is the law. You may as well pull the plug on your kid now, since science would tell you he has just 3 months to live. However, its faith that can help push people through those difficult times, and sometimes inexplicable things happen. Miracle? I dont know, perhaps we havent learned enough to explain whatever it was that may have cured someone, but i'd like to think theyre possible.
 
So, I'm writing a paper for a class I'm taking about how religion has affected the world, and what a world without religion would look like.

Despite me not being in the least religious, I'd have to say the world would actually be worse without religion.

Any input or argument for one or the other? I need someone to discuss and argue with for ideas of what to include. So far I'm thinking of including the following:


  1. How "power" would look like. As in, would the leading men be any different when a church no longer has had any influence?
  2. Cultural differences
  3. View on homosexuality
  4. Views on women
  5. Repression of science
  6. moral/ethical differences
  7. view and value of life
  8. view of self-preservation such as suicide
  9. torture
  10. war
  11. murder
Any other things I could include?

I have 7 weeks to write it, so give me ideas!

Holy crap, talk about a massive change in the fundamental history of the world. Many of the wars that shaped Europe stemmed at least in part from the Protestant Reformation and the dividing lines between Protestant and Catholic nations. The entire concept of the divine right of kings (granting authority to many of Europe's rulers) would have to be revised.

The Crusades, and the resulting fallout would not have happened, the vast spread of Islam and the nations and peoples it forged before then would not have happened.

Part of the initial push for English colonization of the New World was done due to religious persecution. The eventual US might have been predominately settled by another nationality without it (Dutch, French, or the Spanish).

Without the vast mission efforts of various Catholic orders, contact between the modern-day East and the West would have occurred very differently. IIRC, missionaries formed the beachhead for Western intrusion into China and Japan.

Just to answer the power question, Uzor, you'd have to go all the way back to Rome (that is, if you don't count the Roman/Greek pantheon as a religion) and re-imagine an alternate history.
 
I agree that a world without religion would essentially be the same. Humans require a power structure they can have faith in. Without it, you have no meaning in life. Even if you're atheist and anarchist, you have in mind how you think the world should be or you follow someone's idea of how the world should be and you place your faith in that.

I would like to state as clearly as possible. In my opinion, the word faith means simply that you have no reason to doubt that something is how it is, or in how it should be. I know people who say they don't have faith, but to me someone without faith in some form should be emotionally barren (if he reads this, he knows who I'm talking to). Also blind faith and faith are varried degrees. You can have faith in your government but you don't have to always agree with it to have faith. if you do always agree it's blind faith.

So, without religion people would shift their faith into something else. Science, politics/government, nature etc. We see evidence of this already. You've got your tree huggers, whose faith in leaving nature to be nature are nearly as fanatical as Taliban Insurgents. One group claims a religious and historical right for their faith and the other claims a life/planet preservation right for their faith.

Once the faith is established, it drives them to action. In the case of Catholics for example. Those fully faithful attend every Sunday and every major Mass event/holiday in accordance with their Power Structure's guidance (Catholicism being the power structure). On the other side, the Nazi's generated a power structure that drew in German faith in their ability to become a great nation by defeating the enemies that took them down in WW1 (despite practically making everyone out as an enemy).


So, a world without religion? We'd lose specific things, mostly currently existing artwork. Concepts of good or evil would essentially exist in some other form of adversity. The track runner who is constantly trying to beat his last time (or at least a competitor's time). People who have differing opinions will face off (see Catholic vs Protestant issues). This will inspire people to find ways to represent their faith, so different forms of expression that displayed their faith and desires within that faith would come forward. In the event of a highly scientific society, it would be who could come up with the smallest microchip that can put out the most energy. Or in an all nature concept, what trees are better to plant and who can plant more, or whose gardens/groves are more varried in life.

Ultimately your paper would be hugely an opinion piece. In one bizarro world, you could have free love where making love with another person be it a man or woman is a beautiful thing and so murder and torture is almost nonexistant and very looked down on. This would also eliminate the question of homosexuality cause you would just do what feels right and expect others to do the same without concern (for argument sake disease isn't an issue). It's often viewed that in worlds like this, gender roles wouldn't be greater or lesser, so views on women would be equal to men. The power structure here is the concept of love.

On the flip side, the world could be run by dictators and fights to the death or murder are a common place activity to move the weak out of the way for the stronger (or luckier) to move in. Not to say it's be like anarchy for Trekkies, think of this as how the Klingon's view power. Those above you earned their position through their prowess and honor, so don't take them lightly. This power structure would be individual power (and in this example honor would have a role to some degree).



Anyhow, I see why people are refraining from commenting. This could turn into a whose religion is right or shouldn't be here vs should be here. Ultimately once you get past basic food/shelter needs of humans and break into social needs, a power structure and faith have infinite possibilities. Currently we have a mixture and most people have faith in multiple power structures (their religion and their government for example).

So there you have my view on it. Do with it as you like, just don't forget to note me in any quotes!
 
As promised.

The first question we have to ask is what, really, is religion?

Religion, fundamentally (heh) is an attempt to explain things that people don't understand by ascribing them to supernatural forces. Zeus makes the lightning. Thor makes the thunder. The earthquake was all part of God's plan. And so on.

Without the ability to ascribe natural or random events to supernatural forces, we'd have to figure out some other way of explaining them. Disease is caused by bad air. Ill-humors must be drained from the body.

In the long run, of course, religion, and the "supernatural mindset" as a whole, have a detrimental effect on the progress of human technology and science.

So, what would the world be like without religion? We'd still have wars. We'd still have morals. We'd still have murder, and people who think that homosexuality is icky. The fundamental nature of the human condition would be more or less unchanged.

But.

We'd probably be... significantly more advanced, technologically speaking, than we currently are. Without the "easy out" of a supernatural explanation, we'd be more likely to seek out a scientific explanation. Without religious leaders with a vested interest in maintaining the primacy of their position, we'd have fewer people actively standing in the way of scientific progress.
 
Without the "easy out" of a supernatural explanation, we'd be more likely to seek out a scientific explanation.

Thankfully, we already seek out the scientific explanations. The trick is getting the religious to accommodate them as truth. As intoxicating as the idea of a world without religion may be, we'll be stuck with it a long time. It doesn't matter how many libraries full of science texts you point to, there will always be someone who prefers the "easy out" option because it doesn't take nearly as much mental energy to process. Why learn about natural selection when it's easier to believe in magic?

I wouldn't change history to erase religion's influence. I just long for the day we set it aside like a child's toy.
 
You'd have to be more in depth and research some yourself but the middle eastern civilization during the dark ages was responsible for safeguarding what at that time was the sum of all human knowledge dating back thousands of years and a center of knowledge,science,literature,etc. WIthout a rise of Muhammad to start said civilization it's entirely possible that the majority of known human history and science would not exist or was set back several centuries. Ogedei Khan's Mongols probably would have probably been able to make more headway into Europe before the Khan died of a heart attack.
(they had mandatory elections for the new khan to do so the entire army packed up and left. With Europe having no technology to have mooched off the middle eastern tribes and Moor's there would have been less defenses. The fact that The mongol horde had to stop and turn around as thy were about to destroy western civilization{they'd already cut through China,India,and the rest of the known world} resulted in Europe being the only powerhouse technologically and militarily which lead to the euro-centric world we live in today.)
Now interestingly enough pointing that out has made me realize that the Americas would have been one of the only places left with a working advanced civilization. Chinese civilization still existed due to Genghis's adviser convincing him to learn the concept of "taxes" and as such the Chinese weren't razed to the ground as badly as they could have been so long as they paid.
So now the world power balance changes to a Chinese and "American" setup. The Chinese are documented as having explored the Americas and circumvented the globe before Columbus even was a twinkle in his dad's eye.(I'll try and ask my local bookstore for the name of the book. The explores documented everything already) When they returned they found out the emperor was dead so their hard work was for nothing but in different circumstances their voyage may have not been so easily forgotten which adds yet another variable to the reshaping of the world.

The Crusades probably would have probably still happened since it wasn't actually a religiously motivated war to begin with. It was started by religious leaders yes but essentially it was 2 people in power conspiring to start an invasion under false pretenses that offered each of them a different advantage. The soldiers engaged in the war were partially/mostly motivated by the erasure of all debt and/or criminal records in exchange for joining in.
If you go really far back it's possible the Egyptian empire would have never fallen since it was by taking advantage of their religion that they even lost.
The Battle of Pelusium in 525 B.C. is the battle im referring to.

Oh and superstition would still exist simply because superstition itself is a result of the way our brain itself is wired. It's constantly looking for patterns and will find them even if they make no logical sense. This is actually an advantage usually but in our modern world it's alot easier to confuse it or make it "misfire".
Eg. a black cat walks past and then something bad happens. It happens a second time later when a black cat walks past and boom your head has gotten the idea that black cat= BAD no matter how much you realize it's unlikely. There really could be a chance that cats in general are up to no good. Right?

Oh and hali. You're living in a fairy tale. A religion free world will be exactly like the old one from a sociology/ethics standpoint. This might surprise you but religion motivates countries/leaders alot less than you think so it'll be exactly the same only you lack religion to blame for people having the same vices and problems that we do now. Surely that must be intoxicating.


I'm going to check up upon the conversion of the Roman empire to Christianity since that was started by a passing comet being mistaken as a vision which led the general to fight a battle/war he wouldn't have. Which means it would have changed the shape of the roman empire alone drastically
OK checked up on it. Constantine was fighting for the throne from Maxentius when he had a vision of a meteor spelling out "conquer this" in the sky which somehow converted him to Christianity. So no go on it actually changing the history of the roman empire probably but it still is interesting to know that this is how Christianity came to be widespread and legal in the roman empire. In other word's he's Hali's sworn enemy for all eternity.
 
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Personally, I believe the world would be vastly different. To sum up my main points;

For example, religion keeps cultural evolution in check. Without a religion to keep the Western world united, the cultural difference between the Western countries would be much larger, and as such, likely lead to more wars.

As for homosexuality, it used to be widely accepted. In Rome, males were considered "for pleasure", while women were considered "for family". The bathhouses were unhygienic due to all the men having sex with each other. The bathhouses had a special room where you get naked and oil up. Usually, you went through various discussions, mostly political or business. Occasionally, they had sex. In Japan, homosexuality were widely spread amongst the Samurai ranks. When a young male became a full-fledged Samurai, one of the older members would introduce him to the adult world by having sex with him. Homosexuality weren't really considered bad in the Western world until Christianity arrived and deemed it bad.

While women would likely be considered the weaker gender without religion, my opinions are rather split here. Throughout various nature tribes with the typical shaman/animalistic religion, the women stay home and take care of household work. Yet, these women consider themselves very happy. Having several wives is natural, not because it is considered powerful, but because it eases the work load on the other women. Having only one wife take care of the kettle and household work is too much, and as such, they marry several women to make it easier on them. Additionally, the women are not necessarily the ones raising the children, the older children are. Despite women doing the "lighter" handiwork, they are still rather equal. However, in today's society, it would be considered sexist. So it depends entirely on what you consider to be sexist and how far you take it.

Religion has had a huge impact on science, especially Christianity where it were considered blasphemous to speak about any views other than religion. However, the Mayan religion were, for example, almost entirely built around science and the understanding of nature. As such, I believe religion can have both a good and a bad influence on religion, depending on how the religion itself is writ. That being said, without religion it is likely mankind would still pursue the understanding of nature, so I believe without religion science would be more advanced today.

Despite what a lot of religious people I've talked to seem to think, religion did not write our morals. We know instinctively that killing innocent people is wrong, and no one like having people stealing from them. However, without religion, it is likely that each country would have a varying set of laws and morals. While we might know stealing is wrong, it is something religion likely has taught us to be wrong. Our strongest instinct is our so-called baby voice, which is the part of our instinctual system that is egoistic. We strive to make it better for ourselves all the time, and taking things from others while defending our own stuff is part of this. For example, small children has a tendency to take toys from other children, because that's what their instincts tell them to do. They don't know this to be wrong, until we teach them. If there is no religion to teach people stealing is wrong, I don't consider it too unlikely that the concept of stealing being wrong to have never been invited. However, the last part is not entirely true, as it conflicts with another very strong instinct we have;

Self preservation. The fear of being rejected is, together with egoism, one of our strongest instincts. Being rejected actually activates the same part of the brain as physical pain. Stealing things as food (while it can be beneficial), can have horrendous consequences to human survival. If caught, can lead to the rest of the rejection. Humans are group animals, and as such, being rejected from the group can lead to death.

This is a short write-up of some my views on the topic, I hope I can get some input on them.

Also, Khajit, Christianity changed the Roman empire greatly. From Christians being hunted and killed, it was now the official religion. While as a start is simply meant Christians were no longer hunted and killed (the Roman empire had a high tolerance for religion at this point, as a great number of soldiers had varying believes such as Mithra and other ancient Roman religions), it eventually lead to the church forbidding all other religions and starting a witch hunt on non-believers. To be honest, I would say Christianity is one of the reasons the Roman empire eventually fell, as it divided the empire.
 
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This topic is entirely too long for a paper. It could barely even be adequately treated in a dissertation. My personal opinion, to put it at succinctly as possible, is that world would be exactly like it is. Religion always has been, and always will be, a political vehicle. Politics are the natural evolution of the social interactions between different families, between different tribes, so on and so on ad nauseum.
 
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