Abortion video

[Isollde]

Having an abortion opens you up to the immediate risks of serious infections, internal hemmorhaging, and uterine and cervical ruptures. Even if you don't have immediate complications, problems can surface later when the woman becomes pregnant again. Having a previous abortion, especially if it was performed in the woman's first pregnancy, can severely increase the risks of ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages. A small percentage of women who have an abortion are rendered sterile by the procedure, and those odds increase with each successive abortion.

Now, I haven't had an abortion personally, but I have to wonder if these risks are mentioned to the women about to undergo this procedure. Simply the fact that the majority of abortions are performed on an outpatient basis with little or no pre- and post-operative care from the physician in question makes me extremely leery of the medical ethics of the average abortion clinic.

HAving gone through this with a close friend of mine, no they really don't go over everything that could happen. When I was in college back in Chicago, a good friend of mine got pregnant. Being 18 and by no means mentally, financially or, emotionally stable to raise a child. So she opted for an abortion.

I went with her because at this point the boyfriend who helped put her in this situation, wanted to nothing to with her. The doctor and nurses at the clinic told her there were only small reactions she may have. (i.e. excess bleeding for the next few days, stomach cramps, ) but nothing some rest and tylenol couldn't cure. they mentioned as well she shouldn't make it a regular habit because it make cause "complications" later on.. never went into detail and brushed it off as if it was nothing really. She felt better about having the abortion.

Well, she has the abortion and she seemed fine. A week or so later she was in hospital, with serious cramps, and bleeding. They hadn't removed all the fetus and an infection had set in her uterus. She is now sterile at the age of 21. :/

I definetely agree that more effort should be made to educate women considering abortions, because they aren't getting it from the clinic.

 

[Uzor]

My biggest concern is that abortion is thrown around so flippantly, as an outpatient procedure on the same level as having a pesky mole removed. Having an abortion is a serious surgical procedure, with serious potential complications that most women don't really seem to be aware of. Having an abortion opens you up to the immediate risks of serious infections, internal hemmorhaging, and uterine and cervical ruptures. Even if you don't have immediate complications, problems can surface later when the woman becomes pregnant again. Having a previous abortion, especially if it was performed in the woman's first pregnancy, can severely increase the risks of ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages. A small percentage of women who have an abortion are rendered sterile by the procedure, and those odds increase with each successive abortion.

Now, I haven't had an abortion personally, but I have to wonder if these risks are mentioned to the women about to undergo this procedure. Simply the fact that the majority of abortions are performed on an outpatient basis with little or no pre- and post-operative care from the physician in question makes me extremely leery of the medical ethics of the average abortion clinic.

What especially makes me sad is that there are so many options for birth control available that there really is no excuse to go without. Regardless of your medical history, if you're healthy enough to actually have children then there's a form of birth control that can work for you. Condoms and the pill are just the tip of the iceberg (and I should add that there's probably about 25 different formularies of "the pill" available with different hormonal cocktails in each); you've also got diaphragms and cervical caps, the Depo shot, a birth control patch, the Nuva ring (a hormone-laden plastic ring that is looped over the cervix once a month) and two different versions of the IUD (one with hormones and one with copper). None of them are 100% it's true, but some of them come pretty damn close, and all of them are cheaper and safer than having to get an abortion.

Actually, its not always a surgical procedure. Its a surgical procedure after a certain stage. However, early in the pregnancy you take some chemicals that rejects the baby and flushes it out of the body. I don't know what kind of bad doctors you have in America, but its a rather simple procedure pre-5 months, where its not recommended that you perform an abortion either way.

And most of you pro-lifers seem to think that women perform abortions as often as they blow their noses, which is not the case. AT ALL.

And all of you still fail to answer the question in the video and in the OP: If it is to be made illegal, what should the punishment be for the woman?

 

[RaidrX]

Early-term surgical abortion is a simple procedure. When performed before the 16th week by competent doctors — or, in some states, nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, and physician assistants — it is safer than childbirth.

- Cates W., Jr, & Tietze C. (1978). Standardized mortality rates associated with legal abortion: United States, 1972-1975 Electronic version. Family Planning Perspectives, 10 (2), 109-12. Retrieved 2006-01-28.

Doesn't sound like your friends doctors were very "competent". Did she ever file any legal action, or did the doctors consider that a "small reaction".

I mean, yeah there is gonna be a possibility of complication, but what surgical operation isn't there going to be? And don't get me wrong, i'm not saying abortion is safe or that you shouldnt consider the health factors before making a decisions, but at the same time you have to be realistic.

And I am pro choice. Even if the women just got pregnant through casual sex i think its her choice to have it or not. Is it irresponsible to just go get pregnant casually and have an abortion? Sure, but in my opinion its the womens choice.

 

[Fellina]

The majority of abortions performed in the US are, indeed, surgical procedures. The most common procedure involves the cervix being forcibly dilated and the fetus removed via vacuum. Chemical abortions were just recently made available in the US, but they're not available everywhere. Chemical abortions can only be safely performed in the first three months, not five; they also have similar complications because the end result if the same: the cervix is artificially dilated and the fetus is forcibly expelled.

Abortion is a sticky issue for me personally. I can't define my feelings into a simple "pro-blank" because I honestly have beliefs that support both sides. However, I will say one thing: what absolutely disgusts me is not the women who choose to have abortions, but the medical ethics of the average outpatient abortion clinic here in the US. It frightens me to see how abortions have become big business, and not a quality of life issue.

 

[Realia]

It seems simple enough...but are you willing to not only save sex for marriage, but for when you are both ready to have kids?

That's a tall order.

I think we have to make the assumption that people WILL have sex if they're not ready to have kids. The question is, will they use one or more forms of birth control? It's hard to have a baby when you use a condom, take the pill, and pull out early.

I don't think it's too much to ask. Many of my friends and I haven't had sex before and when we do, I only hope that they are well informed and safe. Although, one of my friends doesn't really get it I think. She had her first kid in Dec. 06 and her anf her husband can barely afford to feed that kid, and now she's pregnant again with her second child. I would make a joke about the town she's from, but I don't think anyone would get it.

Anyway, my point was that I don't want something like this to happen to anyone. They're so poor they can barely afford rent, they had their car repoed, and with only one of them working I don't know how they're going to be able to afford everything when the other baby is born. I wish I would help them, but when it comes to money I can't, and neither can their parents (on both sides). It's a lose-lose situation, the child has to live in poor conditions and the parents work themselves to death trying to feed their kid.

 

[Morwen]

In some ways, I find this attitude that a woman isn't a "real" woman unless she embraces motherhood even more disturbing than some of the other stuff in this thread. Why trivialize a woman's decision against having children? Not everyone wants to be a parent. I consider myself too busy for children; does that make me selfish?

While I completely respect your opinion, allow me to clarify my statements.

Parenthood, is the natural born right of any species put on earth (whether its actually 'put' or 'survived' is up to you). People who are afraid to take upon the responsibilities of such a right, and hide behind something (abortion in this case) just to justify their own importance.

I do realize that there are people, that are seriously too busy to have children. I respect that, because they're throwing that passion into seeing other things grow. The economy, humanitarian projects, a fortune 500 company; each thing nurtured from ground - up. In a way, that is its own type of motherhood. Maybe I did generalize, and I do apologize for that, but people who really think that its worthless... that have no care and no feeling, for such base, instinctual things... are who I was talking about.

I'm not trying to sound preachy, or saying that abortion is bad. Again, I am Pro-Choice. It is your body, you do with it as you please, we were given the ability to think freely for a reason. But, to not even consider adoption? There are people getting abortions for purely aesthetic reasons: "Oh I do not want to get fat" and then there are women tearing their bodies apart with InVitro, Ovarian Drilling, Surrogate Motherhood; all of that, just for the CHANCE to have a child. I've watched it happen. The emotional effects it has on them is fucking horrid. Then there are women making 2-3 appointments a year at a clinic because they can't be arsed to wrap it up or pop a pill? It's ridiculously hard for Americans to adopt American children, which is crap and most likely a huge deterant to mothers trying to decide on what to do. Why allow my child to grow out of the system and hop from foster home to foster home, with who knows what happening to them inbetween?

 

[Morwen]

I don't think it's too much to ask. Many of my friends and I haven't had sex before and when we do, I only hope that they are well informed and safe. Although, one of my friends doesn't really get it I think. She had her first kid in Dec. 06 and her anf her husband can barely afford to feed that kid, and now she's pregnant again with her second child. I would make a joke about the town she's from, but I don't think anyone would get it.
Anyway, my point was that I don't want something like this to happen to anyone. They're so poor they can barely afford rent, they had their car repoed, and with only one of them working I don't know how they're going to be able to afford everything when the other baby is born. I wish I would help them, but when it comes to money I can't, and neither can their parents (on both sides). It's a lose-lose situation, the child has to live in poor conditions and the parents work themselves to death trying to feed their kid.

>.> Taylor?

 

[Eilistrae]

Now, I haven't had an abortion personally, but I have to wonder if these risks are mentioned to the women about to undergo this procedure. Simply the fact that the majority of abortions are performed on an outpatient basis with little or no pre- and post-operative care from the physician in question makes me extremely leery of the medical ethics of the average abortion clinic.

they are mentioned and they make you get a 2 week check up as well. My clinic gave me those pills that help get your uterus back to normal (they give to women after birth as well), they gave me prescription pain stuff, and they gave me antibiotics.

What especially makes me sad is that there are so many options for birth control available that there really is no excuse to go without. Regardless of your medical history, if you're healthy enough to actually have children then there's a form of birth control that can work for you. Condoms and the pill are just the tip of the iceberg (and I should add that there's probably about 25 different formularies of "the pill" available with different hormonal cocktails in each); you've also got diaphragms and cervical caps, the Depo shot, a birth control patch, the Nuva ring (a hormone-laden plastic ring that is looped over the cervix once a month) and two different versions of the IUD (one with hormones and one with copper). None of them are 100% it's true, but some of them come pretty damn close, and all of them are cheaper and safer than having to get an abortion.

someone mentioned earlier about women having issues with stroke. I get migraine with aura, hence I cannot have estrogen, anything. Now then, that really narrows down my choices of BC. I can take a progesterone only... which I did, and that was the pill I was taking when I ended up pregnant... or I can get an IUD. I plan to get the IUD, in the next few weeks actually.

In addition, I'd like to add that abortions are painful and scary. After having one due to health issues, I'll never EVER go through that again. The doctors don't give a rats ass about you, its almost like I was on an assembly line. He finished with me, went on to the next, so on and so forth. I did have a choice, I could have tried to carry the baby full term, but there was a 50% chance that I'd miscarry with serious complications since I had a threatened miscarriage once already. I made my choice.

 

[Pastry]

Uzor, if abortion was illegal you'd probably get fined or some jail time, I doubt anything real serious.

Although I remember reading that illegal abortions are up to 10 years in prison and was a felony. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Marajade]

Anyway, my point was that I don't want something like this to happen to anyone. They're so poor they can barely afford rent, they had their car repoed, and with only one of them working I don't know how they're going to be able to afford everything when the other baby is born. I wish I would help them, but when it comes to money I can't, and neither can their parents (on both sides). It's a lose-lose situation, the child has to live in poor conditions and the parents work themselves to death trying to feed their kid.

That situation is exactly why Abortions exist. This baby essentially destroyed her life.


And for the people who'll wave "adoption" around like a solution, A) the system can't handle more kids in it and B) how would you feel knowing you actualy HAD a child but would likely never see it again and never be a part of its life.

 

[Eilistrae]

That situation is exactly why Abortions exist. This baby essentially destroyed her life.


And for the people who'll wave "adoption" around like a solution, A) the system can't handle more kids in it and B) how would you feel knowing you actualy HAD a child but would likely never see it again and never be a part of its life.

most states have assistance for these sorts of situations and most people can make it just fine.

 

[Trippyhippy]

Outlaw abortion and only outlaws will have abortions. They wil still be performed, just not in a manner that is safe or sterile.

For all the people that are pro-life, let me just say that makes you anti-choice. I've had this arguement with someone before in the old flameboard, but I couldn't find it. I'll keep looking but in the mean time, here is the propostion I had put forward.

If you look at the terms used "Pro-life" and "Pro-Choice", you may notice that they do not mean the opposite of each other. While Pro-life means that you are against killing anything, the opposite would be pro-death. No one goes around saying "kill all babies". That just isn't the way it is.

Now pro-choice means that you believe everyone should have the choice to decide what to do with thier body in the event they become preagnant. The opposite of that would be "anti-choice", and that would mean, no, you don't have any say in the matter. You got pregnant, and now you have no choice but to deal with it.

Next time any of you want to say you are pro-life, remember, what your saying is that you are in fact "Anti-choice". You may not like it because it sounds bad, but it's still the same belief. There is no reason why people shouldn't call it what it is, and that is the removal of yet another freedom by way of people putting there nose where it doesn't belong: in other peoples business.

I have never had sex without protection. I have never had sex without first confirming the that abortion would be the way to go if something was to happen and she got pregnant.

I personally don't believe in a soul. I believe each person is made up only of their life experiences. If you have never experienced joy, sorrow, pain, or pleasure then you aren't a person. But that's just what I believe of course, the are exceptions even to that rule.

 

[Reauland]

Personally, I believe that abortion should be legal(perhaps with certain time constraints), but should remain on the razor's edge of being considered morally and socially acceptable, circumstances depending.

The reason that I say this is, from a strictly logical standpoint, that a sizable percentage of abortions would be unnecessary were the individuals not engaging in the reproductive process, protected, pilled, or otherwise. I believe that more parents should be teaching their children that this is the inevitable consequence of intercourse, that if you keep rolling the dice, you're eventually going to come up a big winner in the baby game. Couple that with a sense of responsibility, and we're headed in the right direction. I think that's what really bothers me - the fact that I've known far too many people who seem to care jack-all for what the consequences of their actions are, and you can't tell me that there's not a goodly percentage of abortion seekers who don't fall into that category, women and men alike. After all, a significant contributing factor in China's high abortion figure is that it is, to the best of my knowledge, the only nation on the planet that has legislated compulsory abortions, so who knows how much that might skew the figure away from being directly comparable.

Now please, don't misunderstand. I believe that there are many cases where abortion is not only justified, but downright necessary. It's just that in many Western societies, there seems to be a subculture that takes our right to "the pursuit of happiness" to rather hedonistic extremes. Frankly, I'm surprised that there seems to be less social ostracism associated with doing away with the by-products of irresponsible sex than there is with actually keeping the child, and it's a damn shame that it's always the mother who bears the brunt of all this while her tango partner dances blithely off into the sunset.

 

[Myrrh]

Just wow, Trip. beautifully said. Couldn't agree more.

 

[Halifirien]

Parenthood, is the natural born right of any species put on earth (whether its actually 'put' or 'survived' is up to you). People who are afraid to take upon the responsibilities of such a right, and hide behind something (abortion in this case) just to justify their own importance.

I think you're confusing the word "right" with "obligation," to be honest. It sounds like you're saying it's every person's duty to procreate, and that somehow they're unfulfilled unless they take on the mantle of parenthood. There are plenty of childless people out there who would strongly disagree with that idea.

I've never wanted to have children of my own and made it very clear after enough "When are you going to make me a grandmother?" hints from my own mother that it was never going to happen. Thankfully my sister took up that particular burden, which is why I have two nieces and two nephews.

But I still fail to understand your point about "people who really think that its worthless," because the entire idea of birth control is that you control your reproductive destiny, for whatever reason you choose. As I said before, I really don't care why a woman chooses to end a pregnancy, whether it's because she doesn't want to jeopardize her career or already has enough mouths to feed or even if it's to avoid stretch marks.

Correct me if I'm wrong about what you're saying, though. I'm trying to understand your viewpoint.

 

[Aaleel]

1.2 million abortions in the US alone last year. All those kids can't go into the system I'm sorry, and not nearly all of them will find families. All the kids in the system at the moment can't find homes, so 1 million more per year, not even feasible.

Neither is not having sex, kids and adults are going to have sex. Molestation, rape, and other circumstances are all going to happen.

Then you have to think about illegal abortions that will happen, just like they did before it was legalized, and then you run the risk of the mother and child dying, or a woman having damage that may prevent her from having kids in the future for a mistake she made when she was young.

I've always wondered what the percentage of pro-life people who have actually adopted a kid is, since they all want to say just put the kid up for adoption so it can find a caring family.

 

[Halifirien]

There's always the Bill Hicks approach of not taking "pro-lifers" seriously until they start picketing cemeteries.

"She can't come in."

"She was 97! She was hit by a bus!"

"There's options."

 

[Uzor]

The majority of abortions performed in the US are, indeed, surgical procedures. The most common procedure involves the cervix being forcibly dilated and the fetus removed via vacuum. Chemical abortions were just recently made available in the US, but they're not available everywhere. Chemical abortions can only be safely performed in the first three months, not five; they also have similar complications because the end result if the same: the cervix is artificially dilated and the fetus is forcibly expelled.

I never said it were available at 5 months. I said that early in the pregnancy you could do it And it is generally MUCH safer then surgical abortion. Going through with your pregnancy and giving birth to the baby can cause more complication than chemical abortion if done within 49 days.

Now, I don't remember the exact stages of pregnancy, but I believe 49 days is where the fetus is still only cells. Can you honestly consider this a living being?

Then there are women making 2-3 appointments a year at a clinic because they can't be arsed to wrap it up or pop a pill?

Here we go again. Yes, some women might do that, but it is FAR from a majority. It is a great minority that do this. The total US population 2000 were 286,196,812. The amount of abortions that year were 1,31 millions. That means 0.4% of the total American population performed an abortion. Now, some of those are people that did it more then once, but that's still far from everyone using it instead of condoms like you make it sound like.

1.2 million abortions in the US alone last year. All those kids can't go into the system I'm sorry, and not nearly all of them will find families. All the kids in the system at the moment can't find homes, so 1 million more per year, not even feasible.

Neither is not having sex, kids and adults are going to have sex. Molestation, rape, and other circumstances are all going to happen.

Finally someone else that sees the insane part in preaching that all kids can find a foster home instead of being aborted. It just won't happen. Its impossible.

And yes, sex is a human instinct. People won't, ever, stop having sex until they decide to have a baby.

 

[Danyal]

I'm pro-choice, hands down.

Those that say a woman who was raped should have the baby, do not know what it is like to be raped and how that memory will be with you til the day you die. Knowing every day til that baby is born that the life inside you came about by force and violence is just adding salt to the original wound. The disgust felt after being raped is enough let alone having to deal with the rapist's child inside you. Same thing with incest.

Also, abortion is not an easy choice to make. It's a heart breaking, gut wrenching process that can leave you feeling guilty and alone and regretful. You also have to take into consideration the risk that the woman will have to consider such as becoming sterile or hemorrhaging along with how uncomfortable and painful the procedure is. Some apparently can deal with it as with multiple abortions/abortion as birth control. Do I approve of that? Absolutly not. But I'm pro-choice, why would I oppose? Because it disgusts me to think a woman could be so emotionless in that decision, let alone multiple times.

If abortion were to become illegal, it would still be done. Probably in unsafe environments or at home by using even less safe methods. I would rather know that a woman can go to a clean, safe and professional place where they would be given optimal education and care.

Every issue will have 2 sides. I have no problem with pro-lifers, just like I have no problem with anyone with an opposing view on any subject that I believe to be right or wrong, true or false. I just think those that are against abortion (and some... not all...) have their opinion but have no idea what they would do if something like this happened to them.

 

[Direwolf]

My stand point on this is that males have absolutely NO right whatsoever to make any sort of final decision in this matter. Its funny how alot of men I know talk about how abortions are evil and yet they will never be in the position that they are trapped with a child inside them that they will have to be responsible for the rest of their days. I have seen a lot of people who have not been put in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy get on a high horse and preach how they are so much holier then though. That is complete fucken bullshit. At least 95% of people who are preaching from their vaunted moral superiority have never been in a position where all your choices suck and you need to make choices that will EASILY determine the the course of the rest of your life.


Personally the whole nonsense of a soul or w/e at conception is borderline retarded. What differentiates a human being from a clump of living cells is our brains. Our ability to think and reason, work things out. In short its our brains that makes us who we are, the proof of this? Ever see a brain dead or damaged person? Who they where is gone or so horribly twisted and changed that they are barely recognizable as who they once where. That being said I personally have no issues with abortions in the first two trimesters. I don't view the fetus as a human being and I never will. In the third I would only say in cases where the mother's life is at risk.

You could put the kid up for adoption, and they might even be lucky enough to get adopted, thats a personal choice. But when people start imposing their moral values on other people that is when I have an issue. Live your life without interfering in others has been my stance, if you don't like someones choices to bad for you don't associate with them.