ACLU strikes again

Keryan

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I was up all night, sorry I do not know how to post the site info...<if someone could find it and post it I'd be happy>

I was watching foxnews when they reported that a Principal and a PE teacher were looking at jail time and loss of all benifits because they said grace at a booster event. This over Grace! The ACLU also prevented a student from giving a speech because they thought said student would bring up religion. SAME SCHOOL!

People have lost sight of the meaning of seperation of church and state. It was done to prevent the church from controlling politics. It was not meant to remove all things related to church from the lives of people. You could ask why the governent makes you pay for a marriage license when it is the church you go to get married at. These men had every right to say a prayer as the people there had a right to listen or ignore it. They should not lose what they have worked for for 30+ years. What right does the ACLU have to trample the rights of hard working americans who are not in any way harming another or infringing the rights of others to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
 
I was up all night, sorry I do not know how to post the site info...<if someone could find it and post it I'd be happy>

I was watching foxnews when they reported that a Principal and a PE teacher were looking at jail time and loss of all benifits because they said grace at a booster event. This over Grace! The ACLU also prevented a student from giving a speech because they thought said student would bring up religion. SAME SCHOOL!

People have lost sight of the meaning of seperation of church and state. It was done to prevent the church from controlling politics. It was not meant to remove all things related to church from the lives of people. You could ask why the governent makes you pay for a marriage license when it is the church you go to get married at. These men had every right to say a prayer as the people there had a right to listen or ignore it. They should not lose what they have worked for for 30+ years. What right does the ACLU have to trample the rights of hard working americans who are not in any way harming another or infringing the rights of others to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


Kinda like that story of the kid that got suspended from school for drawing a cross on his piece of art in art class. Or the girl whos school was WITHHOLDING her diploma because she... *GASP* mentioned god in her valedictorian speech. yeah i know, what a fuckin bitch.

the ACLU isn't for protecting anyone's rights, they're for making sure no christian has the right to practice their religion outside of closed doors.(some may think that sounds extreme but i garunfuckintee you if they had the power that's exactly the kind of law they'd make)They sue airports of have Christmas trees taking down while sueing the same airport to have Muslim footbaths put IN. remember, it doesn't have to make any sense, or be any evidence of true rights violations. if a liberal** simply has to SEE or HEAR of your religious beliefs that means they're being oppressed. (if your in the majority that is, i bet you if that prayer had been a Muslim prayer ACLU wouldn't give two shits, and would probably applaud the school for their "Diversity" or w/e )

Oh and for future reference i wouldn't mention you got your info from fox news, half the people here are going to write off the story as a complete falsehood now. you know its easier to just call someone a liar then to actually try and address the points raised.

**no i don't mean ALL Liberals, i mean "Those Types" of liberals, and everyone knows what type i mean.
 
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If you could provide some sort of link to the story then I'm sure many people would be happy to comment on it. However, those 24 hour news stations all seem to be very good at misinformation and give you an opinionated report based on half truths. The ACLU is one of the few oganizations left in our country that fight for our civil liberties. I'm not saying the story is untrue, but I have a hard time believing it.

Federal government shouldn't have any control over schools no matter if they are public or private. The last time I checked, free speech didn't apply to everything except religion. If this is really the case, the guy should definitely contest it. If this was all true then the ACLU should be able to sue EVERY school for making the children say the pledge with the word "God" in it.
 
Yes, because Christianity will shrivel up and die if school teachers (i.e. government employees) aren't allowed to lead children to pray to a god which they may or may not believe is there. There are no laws preventing kids from praying at school; they can do it on their own all they want. The school isn't allowed to require that they participate.

I haven't heard anything about this particular case. A link would be nice.
 
Found it. They're not being prosecuted for the prayer so much as for violating a court order to stop indoctrinating students with a belief in their god.

(CNN) -- Two Florida school administrators face contempt charges and possible prison time for saying a prayer at a school luncheon.

Pace High School enacted a decree in January banning officials from promoting religion at school events.

Frank Lay, principal of Pace High School, and Athletic Director Robert Freeman are accused of violating a consent decree banning employees of Santa Rosa County schools from endorsing religion.

They face a non-jury trial September 17 before U.S. District Judge Casey Rodgers. The statute under which they are charged carries a maximum penalty of up to six months in prison, subject to sentencing guidelines.

Attorneys defending Lay and Freeman call it outrageous that the two are being prosecuted for "a simple prayer." But the American Civil Liberties Union, whose lawsuit led to the consent decree, maintains that students have a right to be free from administrators foisting their religious beliefs on them.

Still, an ACLU representative said the organization never suggested that people should go to jail for violating the decree.

The ACLU filed suit last year against the district on behalf of two Pace students who alleged that "school officials regularly promoted religion and led prayers at school events," according to an ACLU statement.

Both parties approved the consent decree put in place January 9, under which district and school officials are "permanently prohibited from promoting, advancing, endorsing, participating in or causing prayers during or in conjunction with school events," the ACLU said.

Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy.

On January 28, "Lay asked Freeman to offer a prayer of blessing during a school-day luncheon for the dedication of a new fieldhouse at Pace High School," according to court documents. "Freeman complied with the request and offered the prayer at the event. It appears this was a school-sponsored event attended by students, faculty and community members."

Attorneys from Liberty Counsel, a conservative legal group helping defend Lay and Freeman, said in a written statement that attendees included booster club members and other adults who helped the field house project, all "consenting adults."

In a February 4 letter to district Superintendent Tim Wyrosdick in which Lay acknowledged the incident, he said that although past football booster club members "and other adults associated with the school system" were at the luncheon, culinary class students were in charge of food preparation and serving.

Lay wrote that he asked Freeman to bless the food "for the adults. ... I take full responsibility for this action. My actions were overt and not meant to circumvent any court order or constitutional mandate."

In response, Wyrosdick noted in a letter to Lay that in a meeting, the principal had admitted that "you are, and were at the date of this incident, aware of the court injunction and aware that this type of action is not permissible under the injunction."

Wyrosdick recounted telling Lay that the prayer was not appropriate.

"This note is to share with you written instructions to avoid this type of action," the superintendent said. Both letters are in the public court file.

"It is a sad day in America when school officials are criminally prosecuted for a prayer over a meal," said Mathew Staver, founder of Liberty Counsel and dean of the law school at Liberty University, founded by the late Rev. Jerry Falwell. "It is outrageous and an offense to the First Amendment to punish a school official for a simple prayer."

Liberty Counsel said it is challenging the consent decree, maintaining that it "unconstitutionally infringes on the rights of teachers, administrators and students."

The ACLU, according to the Liberty Counsel statement, has begun "to go against individual employees." The organization said that neither man "willfully violated any orders of the court."

"We're not going after individuals," said Glenn Katon, director of the Religious Freedom Project for the ACLU of Florida. "We're just trying to make sure that school employees comply with the court order."

The ACLU did not request the criminal contempt charges against Lay and Freeman, he said; the judge initiated them after seeing a reference to the incident in a motion. And the ACLU is not involved in the criminal proceedings, he said.

"We certainly never suggested that anyone go to jail," Katon said.

Lay is not facing jail time for praying, he said, but for violating a court order.

"The moral of this story is, for us, this is about the students' right to be free from teachers and school administrators thrusting upon the students their religious beliefs," Katon said. "They keep talking about the religious rights of the administrators, but the administrators and the principals don't have any right to trumpet their religious beliefs in a school setting."


Neither Lay nor Freeman has been placed on leave, according to the school district.
 
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Yes, because Christianity will shrivel up and die if school teachers (i.e. government employees) aren't allowed to lead children to pray to a god which they may or may not believe is there. There are no laws preventing kids from praying at school; they can do it on their own all they want. The school isn't allowed to require that they participate.

I haven't heard anything about this particular case. A link would be nice.

when was the last time anyone at any school was Required to participate in prayer?

this isn't about kids being required to pray its about kids being in the same room with someone praying. that's the part that pisses me off, its RARELY about someone being required to participate in prayer, which would be a legitimate violation of someones rights, and i would be all for someone being sued over that. its about someone having to HEAR a prayer, when people act like having to hear or see it, is the same as being forced to participate in it is when someone needs to grow the fuck up and reread our bill of rights.

If a kid wears a pro- gay lesbian shirt to school, noones being FORCED to believe in or support their life style, yet the same kind of thing happens with that. ACLU is sueing a school because they suspended a kid for wearing a gay/lesbians rights shirt. I completely agree with the ACLU on that one. but sueing a school for say... a student giving a speech in which he lays out why he doesn't believe in homosexuality. would be a completely different story. (that hasn't happened as far as i know im just using it as a hypothetical situation) Freedom of speech goes both ways, you may at some point hear/see something you don't agree with or believe in, and you just have to SUCK IT UP.

also i realize the ACLU isn't all bad, like the example above, they often take on cases of TRUE rights violations and often do great things, but they seem to have a certain zeal for making sure noone sees or hears a display of religion they don't agree with in a public place.


Edit:: halif made a response before i was done typing. that's the kind of language im talking about "foisting religious beliefs on students" or "indoctrinating students"
Sorry but if your kids to much of a moron to think for himself, and gets "Brainwashed" by simply having to HEAR a prayer. I don't have much sympathy for him.

its this kind of hyper-sensitivity that makes it so religion as a whole is being purged from schools completely, I think i would be a cool idea for high schools to have some kind of world religion class(as an elective), where they simply teach different religions practiced around the world from Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Taoism, Buddhism. w/e

I personally believe that our kids arn't to stupid to hear of the world religions with out being indoctrinated or brainwashed. but many people don't give our kids the same faith so we prob never see any sort of theology class in high schools. its a shame if you ask me, in a society as advanced as we are we cant even discuss religion in some places for fear of someone being brainwashed or unfairly influenced or w/e.
 
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Yes, because Christianity will shrivel up and die if school teachers (i.e. government employees) aren't allowed to lead children to pray to a god which they may or may not believe is there. There are no laws preventing kids from praying at school; they can do it on their own all they want. The school isn't allowed to require that they participate.

I haven't heard anything about this particular case. A link would be nice.

Speaking as a religious person, I was not upset when they stopped us from having to say the Lord's Prayer in schools when I was in grade 2 (before I started going to a Christian school). Looking back, I'm still not upset. It was completely unreasonable to do things like that in a public school where you have diverse religions and philosophies among the students and their families. I wouldn't have been particularly happy if I had to recite a prayer to something/someone I didn't believe in.

There is a line though, not being "allowed" to say Christmas when other holidays keep their terminology is kind of going overboard, but I digress, this is just going to turn into another religion debate where it all boils down to "no u" and the word "ignorant" being tossed around.

In this case, jail time is incredibly hilarious and absurd. They should have just been reprimanded by the school board.

Here you go Hali;

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ayer-case-stirs-protests/?feat=home_headlines

Students, teachers and local pastors are protesting over a court case involving a northern Florida school principal and an athletic director who are facing criminal charges and up to six months in jail over their offer of a mealtime prayer.

If it was just an offer, this was taken too extremely.

Mr. Staver said the district also agreed to forbid senior class President Mary Allen from speaking at the school’s May 30 graduation ceremony on the chance that the young woman, a known Christian, might say something religious.

That's just kinda sad, to not be allowed to speak because of what they feared what she might say.
 
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Oddily enough no one went through and and forced these kids to believe in god. No one was there holding a gun to their heads. This crap about protecting the children is just a line people spew for reasons why they can deny people their rights. Listening to someone say grace in any religion will not poison the food or poison the minds of the people waiting to eat. No matter what the ACLU says they made this possible. Ask why there was a court injunction prior. What caused it to be in place? God bless america is written all over the place. We sing it in songs. Our founding fathers based our FREEDOMS on our GOD GIVEN rights.

CNN does not tell the whole truth either. I watch both stations and compare what I am told. CNN kisses Obama's ass and sugar coats things. Now look at the facts. ACLU put up a bitch that had a court injunction in place dealing with god spoken in school. During a booster event which is for sports for you non athletic buffs. Boosters basically support said sport with donations etc. So this is not an event for the whole school, not even forcing kids to go to it. They do what most americans do...they bless the food. Remember I grew up in hawaii, we blessed the food in 2 languages. No one eats until it is blessed. Now they are facing the loss of their retirement and benifits.

The ACLU may say they did not mean for this to happen, but they have not removed the injunction nor asked the judge to let it go. Something to think on is how many other people have been hurt by the ACLU trying to protect other peoples rights through the force of denying others there. I can only hope a group will go through and sue the ACLU for denying civil liberties to the people they attack. There is a fine line between helping someone because they were infact denied their rights, and having witch hunts. Any child or adult should have the right to say god where ever they damn well please without fear of job loss or jail time. I do recall we were granted freedom of speech in the first amendment.

ty for posting that, perhap we should find the florida paper's one to see what they said on it.
 
this isn't about kids being required to pray its about kids being in the same room with someone praying. that's the part that pisses me off, its RARELY about someone being required to participate in prayer, which would be a legitimate violation of someones rights, and i would be all for someone being sued over that. its about someone having to HEAR a prayer, when people act like having to hear or see it, is the same as being forced to participate in it is when someone needs to grow the fuck up and reread our bill of rights.

I don't think the ACLU gives a damn if teachers are saying grace over their own meal at lunch while kids are in the room. However, a school official leading a prayer for a roomful of people at a school function gives it that stamp of government approval that steps over the line. The principal and the coach should've kept their prayers to themselves. Asking their god to bless the new field house doesn't strike me as the sort of thing school officials should be getting paid to do.
 
ty for posting that, perhap we should find the florida paper's one to see what they said on it.


I had posted the Florida one and edited it to the Washington one, it was pretty much identical (fact wise).
 
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I think religion has no place in school personally. That's what church is for, schools are suppose to be for learning. (though nowadays, it's not like kids learn stuff from school like they used to)

Though some of the cases do seem rather silly. I'm not against someone mentioning their god or drawing a friggen cross in their art class, I just don't like when they have a fucking meet at the flag pole for a massive prayer or other stupid shit that belongs at home or in your church.
 
It's a delicate balance, schools and religion. I think that if the ACLU doesn't fight religion tooth and nail, religion will gain the upper hand and begin appearing as school policy again. There's a very vocal fundamentalist Christian movement that fights equally hard to restore school prayer, place Ten Commandments on state property, and have evolution dismissed and creationism/intelligent design taught in science class. The only way to avoid fundamentalists gaining an inch is to actively work to take two. It's a fencing match, and fencing is all about maintaining initiative and momentum. Keep the fight on the offense.
 
I agree the prayer should not have happened... jail time should not even be an option... an apology and if it were more serious a loss of job would be the maximum sentence this "crime" should ever incur.
 
I think i would be a cool idea for high schools to have some kind of world religion class(as an elective), where they simply teach different religions practiced around the world from Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Taoism, Buddhism. w/e

Most of the high schools I attended (read: I attended one for every year) had some sort of class like this, and likewise, it was taught in the History classes as well (moreso in World History).

I agree the prayer should not have happened... jail time should not even be an option... an apology and if it were more serious a loss of job would be the maximum sentence this "crime" should ever incur.
apology? maybe.

loss of job? hell no.


I would say a lot more, but I'll leave it at "I'm tired of religious debates on QCDN".
 
These situations are absurd. It's sad when we have to get court orders to prevent prayer in a school sanctioned event, so little Timmy and Johnny don't feel offended by the mention of God. Sorry little Timmy and Johnny, this is life. Unfortunately you're going to hear things you don't like every once in a while, you ignore it and get over it.

I agree that religion and education are a delicate balance that don't mix. But to refer to it as a fencing match where the fundies and liberals have to fight each other tooth and nail is silly. These types of things start because one fundy politician, or liberal with a little bit of power decide they want to see their name in headlines. "Hey, I think I'll cause an event with religion and school" is what they think. 99.99% of these situations are manufactured.
 
If you want prayers in school go to the appropriate school board. That's why there is a catholic school board, not only is the education better in general than our public school boards, but people are still taught under a religious umbrella.

Prayers do not belong in a public school board if given by teachers. If the students themselves want to take a moment to pray to themselves, go at it. There's nothing wrong with that, there is something wrong with teachers forcing the students of a public school to listen to any one prayer.

I went to both catholic and public schools growing up. A friend of mine in public school was forced by her step-father to stand outside in the hall in the mornings to avoid 'standing' for our national anthem. He is a Jehovah Witness. She is a roman catholic. The national anthem is not even religion specific, it mentions God but God is generic lol. She was allowed this because it was 'her' religion. In no way could those tables be turned from the students rights to a teacher making a class say morning prayer. Or a principal making the student audience say prayer etc.
 
Eh, even the ACLU didn't want any kind of jail time for them. I doubt it will happen. Its very necessary for something like the ACLU to exist though, like others here have said.

Please don't throw around free speech, civil liberties and "Founding Fathers" BS though, guys. You obviously have a very big misunderstanding about these things to throw the terms around so loosely. Free Speech does not mean the freedom to say whatever and whenever you want. This is especially the case here when you are on the job working as a government employee. Obviously the maximum jail time and shit was triggered by the fact that there was already previous complaints and strict guide lines put in place. Is this a bit of an overreaction on this specific case? Of course, I think everyone can see that and the no-jury "trial" will most likely rectify this.
 
Eh, even the ACLU didn't want any kind of jail time for them. I doubt it will happen. Its very necessary for something like the ACLU to exist though, like others here have said.

I will argue this point. I do not feel the ACLU is necessary. I lump them in with groups like PETA, that have an agenda to further. I'm not close-minded though, I would be open to seeing some actual good cases they've argued.

Edit: Let me edit this to say "I do not feel the state the ACLU is in now is necessary." I do agree with the statement "It's very necessary for something like the ACLU to exist" I just don't feel like the ACLU fills that role.
 
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It's sad when we have to get court orders to prevent prayer in a school sanctioned event, so little Timmy and Johnny don't feel offended by the mention of God. ... These types of things start because one fundy politician, or liberal with a little bit of power decide they want to see their name in headlines. "Hey, I think I'll cause an event with religion and school" is what they think. 99.99% of these situations are manufactured.

You could just as easily argue that 99.99% of these situations are manufactured by Christians who feel it's their right to turn everything into a church service, and then they act butthurt when someone who doesn't share their beliefs complains. Their sense of entitlement is staggering, as is their persecution complex when someone doesn't share their beliefs.
 
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You could just as easily argue that 99.99% of these situations are manufactured by Christians who feel it's their right to turn everything into a church service, and then they act butthurt when someone who doesn't share their beliefs complains. Their sense of entitlement is staggering, as is their persecution complex when someone doesn't share their beliefs.

I agree 100% that both sides will manufacture these situations. That's why these types of situations should be relegated to page 8 and late night ticker info.
 
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