Acorn supports.....

Didn't say they were all blameless, but then again I also don't believe a few hidden camera interviews with people who may well have been playing along with people they perceived as idiots automatically means the entire organization is institutionally rotten to the core and must be destroyed.

or they may well have been offering legitimate advice on how to get loans to run an underage brothel out of their homes.

see how far the discussion gets when one group of people automatically assumes acorn is innocent every time something comes up, and the other side automatically assumes their guilty whenever something comes up.

I'd ATLEAST like to see an investigation into whats going on. you know, instead of just sweeping it under the rug and assuming everyone caught with their pants down were just "playing along" with those evil racist fox news plants.

or say assuming they do nothing but get home loans for lower income people who can't afford it, and then turn around and call the bankers predatory lenders when the people can't pay for their home loan.

whatever side of the fence you're on you can't honestly deny that theres something fishy going on at acorn.(tho I bet you'll try)
 
whatever side of the fence you're on you can't honestly deny that theres something fishy going on at acorn.(tho I bet you'll try)

You'll lose that bet. I don't have a problem with Acorn conducting a review of their employees and firing the idiots, nor do I care if a prosecutor reviews evidence to see if there's a criminal case to pursue.

There's fishy stuff going on in any group. I just think the Faux News outrage over Acorn is out of proportion when you consider other groups that have swindled the country out of billions of dollars.
 
Didn't say they were all blameless, but then again I also don't believe a few hidden camera interviews with people who may well have been playing along with people they perceived as idiots automatically means the entire organization is institutionally rotten to the core and must be destroyed.

Why would any rational person "play along" with human trafficing. What of the man who very clearly was trying to purchase the girl as a prostitue? Why did he wait two days? Sorry it does not fly very far. There needs to be a serious investigation into acorn. If there had been just one video most people would hae said meh no biggie....but 5 videos...each covering a different state??? This should lead everone to the simple conclusion something is not right. Think about it. If one police officer was found to be fishy, the whole group gets looked at. Everything they did is scrutized. Just to make sure that it was only an isolated case.

You have 5 different states where something seems very off. Think for just a moment if even one of those cases is real. Can you condone the sale of humans? Child prostitution? If just one of these cases is infact real, does it not merit the whole being looked at? Being a mother I would want the whole group looked at. These children are someones loved one. Acorn would be better for the investigation because they would uncover and remove the corruption in their rank and file. If there was nothing to these acusations then their funding would not have been cut. They would have been able to step up and prove innocences. We don't know if other govermental law inforcement had been watching things or not. There there be an open and transpartent investigation. If they are innocent, it will be seen, if they are guilty, that too will be seen.
 
You'll lose that bet. I don't have a problem with Acorn conducting a review of their employees and firing the idiots, nor do I care if a prosecutor reviews evidence to see if there's a criminal case to pursue.

There's fishy stuff going on in any group. I just think the Faux News outrage over Acorn is out of proportion when you consider other groups that have swindled the country out of billions of dollars.


acorn conducting a review of themselves is beyond laughable. noone here is talking about that. tho no surprise thatd be enough to satisfy you. and yes we all know the reason you don't care is because of " war in Iraq, Bush, and Cheney" you've made that more then clear in pretty much every single thread pointing out something fucked up going on in the left.
 
Be fair, now. I didn't limit my statement to strictly an internal review. I said if a prosecutor wants to go after them on criminal charges, that's fine. Investigate away. Just don't expect me to believe the entire organization is rotten. Acorn has done plenty of good work. I think part of the animus directed at them is because of who they're helping.
 
Be fair, now. I didn't limit my statement to strictly an internal review. I said if a prosecutor wants to go after them on criminal charges, that's fine. Investigate away. Just don't expect me to believe the entire organization is rotten. Acorn has done plenty of good work. I think part of the animus directed at them is because of who they're helping.

i didn't say the ENTIRE organization is rotten, I'm sure they do good things and have done good things.

oh and nice way to disguise a racist accusation. you don't REALLY think the whole media outrage over this is because fox news, and every other new organization who has picked up these storys(pretty much everyone but msnbc) has an agenda against black people do you?
 
Are you crazy? I wasn't disguising the accusation. I used the term "white hood" higher up in the thread. Scroll up and see for yourself.
 
Also in response to tomasellos post. Iraq war, BUSH! CHENEY! (just thought I'd cover your bases for you so you wouldn't have to post again.)

Ok let me cover your bases... Trillion dollar bailouts, Socialized health care, OBAMA!

We were better off with Bush the retard and Cheney the puppetmaster. Obama's just dangerously clueless.

You forgot 9/11.

The problem is most of your ilk has forgotten about 9/11.
 
Heh. This made me laugh... and underscores what I was saying earlier.

Whoops: Anti-ACORN Bill Ropes In Defense Contractors, Others Charged With Fraud

Going after ACORN may be like shooting fish in a barrel lately -- but jumpy lawmakers used a bazooka to do it last week and may have blown up some of their longtime allies in the process.

The congressional legislation intended to defund ACORN, passed with broad bipartisan support, is written so broadly that it applies to "any organization" that has been charged with breaking federal or state election laws, lobbying disclosure laws, campaign finance laws or filing fraudulent paperwork with any federal or state agency. It also applies to any of the employees, contractors or other folks affiliated with a group charged with any of those things.

In other words, the bill could plausibly defund the entire military-industrial complex. Whoops.

Rep. Alan Grayson (D-Fla.) picked up on the legislative overreach and asked the Project on Government Oversight (POGO) to sift through its database to find which contractors might be caught in the ACORN net.

Lockheed Martin and Northrop Gumman both popped up quickly, with 20 fraud cases between them, and the longer list is a Who's Who of weapons manufacturers and defense contractors.

The language was written by the GOP and filed as a "motion to recommit" in the House, where it passed 345-75.

POGO is reaching out to its members to identify other companies who have engaged in the type of misconduct that would make them ineligible for federal funds.

Grayson then intends to file that list in the legislative history that goes along with the bill so that judges can reference it when determining whether a company should be denied federal funds.

The Florida freshman is asking for direct assistance. He has set up a Google spreadsheet where people can suggest contractors who have been charged with violations and include a link to a media or government report documenting the alleged transgression.

The weapons manufacturers might have a better line of defense in court, however. Immediately after the bill passed, Rep. Jerry Nadler (D-N.Y.), a constitutional whiz, noted that the measure appeared to be a "bill of attainder" -- specifically targeting a company or organization or individual -- and is therefore specifically barred by the Constitution. If it's not targeted at one group, then Northrop Grumman is in trouble.

Reps. John Conyers (D-Mich.) and Barney Frank (D-Mass.) sent a letter to the Congressional Research Service on Tuesday asking it to clarify, among other things, if the Defund ACORN Act is constitutional.
 
There is nothing in the constitution that states the federal government must fund acorn either. Also the miliary contracting weapons firms have the added clause of the clause where the government is required to protect the citizens. It would be more a question of which law would superceed the other. As for fraud...does that mean all the banks do not quailfy for the loans?
 
Private organizations should be just that... private. If you can't raise enough money to fund your own operations, there's something wrong with your business model and your management. It should not be up to the tax payer to keep you afloat.

If you're a not-for-profit organization, that's fine. I have *no* issue with benevolent institutions like the Red Cross or even ACORN getting tax-exempt status. But, they should be able to fund themselves on donations based upon their good work, and not have to rely on my tax dollars.

Compassion should not be compulsory... and that's exactly what federal funding of these organizations is: the government forcing me to donate to them.

... just like the bailout of GM was the government forcing me to give them money after I decided not buy their shitty cars.

On the other hand, if you're a public institution receiving public money, you should fall under government control/regulation, and submit to public review (something that didn't happen to ACORN until this debacle).

A perfect example of this would be my high school. I went to an all-male military boarding school that had mandatory religious services for all students once per week. How on earth could such a thing exist in this day and age? Simple... the school did not take a single cent from the federal or state government. Because they were a 100% private institution, they did not have to follow any of the mandates tied to public education money such as mandatory curriculum items, or co-ed classrooms.

How could such an institution survive without federal funds when public schools scrape, beg, and hold bake sales for every last cent they can get? Because they provided a superior product for which parents were willing to pay top dollar. A graduate of my school was practically guaranteed college acceptance to at least a state school, and the guys in the top 25% could pick almost any college they wanted. Furthermore, they had a thirty-year track record of taking problem teens and not just turning them around, but molding them into accomplished students with prospects.

In turn, some graduates, thankful for the opportunities provided to them by such a school became donors or scholarship sponsors. I was able to pay 1/2 my way through that school because of one of those generous individuals.

How does this relate to ACORN? It relates because private institutions who do good and honorable work shouldn't need the federal government to stay afloat. The merit of their work should get them enough private donations and/or corporate sponsors. If the organization is not worthy enough to compel the average citizen to open his wallet, why should the federal government open it for him?

Again, compassion should not be compulsory.

I could make the same argument about the National Endowment for the Arts. You know how artists originally worked back in the day? They had a PATRON. That's right, they found someone rich who liked what they did enough to sponsor them. If they sucked, they kept working at it until they were good enough to get a patron. Meanwhile, they held down a real job and practiced their art form in their spare time. If they were lucky, they found a master of their art to help them along, otherwise, they used their own creativity and ingenuity to develop their skill.

They certainly didn't hold their hand out for federal grant money.

If you suck at your art form so badly that no one will buy it or pay to look at it, why should I support it with my tax dollars?

If your art/music/literary school is apparently so bad at doing its job that no one will pay to go there, why should you merit receiving my tax dollars?

If your museum can't draw me in to see its exhibits and get enough ticket revenue to cover costs, why should you still get to take money out of my wallet at tax time?
 
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Could possibly be becomes some of those places service people who could not afford to even though the services are good. Some of those "art" funds go to help cover the costs so schools with many underprivlidged can get the "art" experince. Look at JK Rowling. Welfare mom who wrote on napkins. Something she saw inspired her to try. I do not mind giving money to help programs, but if they accept the money then they should beable to account for everydime.

People also should keep in mind that Acorn is a multitude of organzations. So this is not as simple as stop funding to acorn. Funny is one of CO FOUNDERS had embezzled oer a million from acorn. Usless bits if info. NY is infact starting an investigation into Acorn in their state. Yet in MD they are looking into the people who shot the footage rather than Acorn. Still any group be it for profit or non should have to account for every dime they spend. if they are found to be cooking the books, then they should have to pay back the money with intrest. Who knows, maybe this would stop the fraud.
 
Private organizations should be just that... private. If you can't raise enough money to fund your own operations, there's something wrong with your business model and your management. It should not be up to the tax payer to keep you afloat.

If you're a not-for-profit organization, that's fine. I have *no* issue with benevolent institutions like the Red Cross or even ACORN getting tax-exempt status. But, they should be able to fund themselves on donations based upon their good work, and not have to rely on my tax dollars.

Compassion should not be compulsory... and that's exactly what federal funding of these organizations is: the government forcing me to donate to them.

... just like the bailout of GM was the government forcing me to give them money after I decided not buy their shitty cars.

On the other hand, if you're a public institution receiving public money, you should fall under government control/regulation, and submit to public review (something that didn't happen to ACORN until this debacle).

A perfect example of this would be my high school. I went to an all-male military boarding school that had mandatory religious services for all students once per week. How on earth could such a thing exist in this day and age? Simple... the school did not take a single cent from the federal or state government. Because they were a 100% private institution, they did not have to follow any of the mandates tied to public education money such as mandatory curriculum items, or co-ed classrooms.

How could such an institution survive without federal funds when public schools scrape, beg, and hold bake sales for every last cent they can get? Because they provided a superior product for which parents were willing to pay top dollar. A graduate of my school was practically guaranteed college acceptance to at least a state school, and the guys in the top 25% could pick almost any college they wanted. Furthermore, they had a thirty-year track record of taking problem teens and not just turning them around, but molding them into accomplished students with prospects.

In turn, some graduates, thankful for the opportunities provided to them by such a school became donors or scholarship sponsors. I was able to pay 1/2 my way through that school because of one of those generous individuals.

How does this relate to ACORN? It relates because private institutions who do good and honorable work shouldn't need the federal government to stay afloat. The merit of their work should get them enough private donations and/or corporate sponsors. If the organization is not worthy enough to compel the average citizen to open his wallet, why should the federal government open it for him?

Again, compassion should not be compulsory.

I could make the same argument about the National Endowment for the Arts. You know how artists originally worked back in the day? They had a PATRON. That's right, they found someone rich who liked what they did enough to sponsor them. If they sucked, they kept working at it until they were good enough to get a patron. Meanwhile, they held down a real job and practiced their art form in their spare time. If they were lucky, they found a master of their art to help them along, otherwise, they used their own creativity and ingenuity to develop their skill.

They certainly didn't hold their hand out for federal grant money.

If you suck at your art form so badly that no one will buy it or pay to look at it, why should I support it with my tax dollars?

If your art/music/literary school is apparently so bad at doing its job that no one will pay to go there, why should you merit receiving my tax dollars?

If your museum can't draw me in to see its exhibits and get enough ticket revenue to cover costs, why should you still get to take money out of my wallet at tax time?


I like you. I'm not used to seeing someone with common sense post something.
 
Private organizations should be just that... private. If you can't raise enough money to fund your own operations, there's something wrong with your business model and your management. It should not be up to the tax payer to keep you afloat.

The argument given for the bailouts was that these businesses, the last vestige of what used to be the worlds greatest manufacturing concern - the American Automotive industry - was "too big to fail." meaning sure, it'd be nice to say "You lose this round, try again!" to GM, but since the long (republican) process of assuming that if you give big business free reign -- and their profit making will trickle downhill to the american populace -- failed. Why did it fail? Because letting big business have free reign included letting them outsource to the cheapest labor regardless of pesky human rights issues and turned China from having 12 port cities under mao to 126 under deng xiaoping, from cities barely able to support life, to metropolises 10 times the size of manhattan. We bailed out our failing industry because republican policy bled our money and jobs and livelihood overseas, and we wanted to give ourselves another chance rather than giving up and eating dirt for the next 20 years.

If you're a not-for-profit organization, that's fine. I have *no* issue with benevolent institutions like the Red Cross or even ACORN getting tax-exempt status. But, they should be able to fund themselves on donations based upon their good work, and not have to rely on my tax dollars.

Acorn was getting your tax dollars as payment for things like running Census gathering for the government. I cant say i know much about them, other than the current manufactured hoopla -- but I cant claim to care much either. You'll argue it denotes a pattern of corruption in Acorn, and I think that the fanatics who engendered these actors that exposed the supposed corruption probably had to try many times before finding just the right stories to present to make Acorn look in the worst possible light, and that they did it for political motivations.


Compassion should not be compulsory... and that's exactly what federal funding of these organizations is: the government forcing me to donate to them.

Compassion should not NEED to be compulsory in the same way that Healthcare should not NEED to be mandatory for everyone to be able to receive medical care without it costing $20k for 6 stitches. But that's what happens when a doctor needs to give you treatment that your HMO's accountant thinks you'd be perfectly off without.

... just like the bailout of GM was the government forcing me to give them money after I decided not buy their shitty cars.

I always find it hard to believe when intelligent people cant see their own hand in their destruction. I'll leave this one as an exercise to the student.

On the other hand, if you're a public institution receiving public money, you should fall under government control/regulation, and submit to public review (something that didn't happen to ACORN until this debacle).

Next paragraph has A perfect example of a public institution receiving public money falling under government control...

A perfect example of this would be my high school. I went to an all-male military boarding school that had mandatory religious services for all students once per week. How on earth could such a thing exist in this day and age? Simple... the school did not take a single cent from the federal or state government. Because they were a 100% private institution, they did not have to follow any of the mandates tied to public education money such as mandatory curriculum items, or co-ed classrooms.

Nope That's precisely the opposite of the point you're trying to make, but lets go with it.


How could such an institution survive without federal funds when public schools scrape, beg, and hold bake sales for every last cent they can get? Because they provided a superior product for which parents were willing to pay top dollar. A graduate of my school was practically guaranteed college acceptance to at least a state school, and the guys in the top 25% could pick almost any college they wanted. Furthermore, they had a thirty-year track record of taking problem teens and not just turning them around, but molding them into accomplished students with prospects.

In turn, some graduates, thankful for the opportunities provided to them by such a school became donors or scholarship sponsors. I was able to pay 1/2 my way through that school because of one of those generous individuals.

This is the same argument people who aren't sick make about healthcare, and that wealthy people make about luxuries. "If you have the means you can have the best education, the best healthcare, the most luxury."
That's fine and dandy. Ayn Rand wrote a whole bunch of books trying to hammer that idea home, and the repubs favorite boy now that he's dead (Regan) was a Randite so it ties in nicely here...
Trouble is its bull cacka. Power doesn't directly derive from merit. If it did, all the hard working blue collar people in America wouldn't have to worry about their HMOs, homes or futures, Wall Street corruption swallowing their entire industries, their pensions evaporating, or their retirement being cut -- simply because it becomes fashionable to be anti-union, or speculators over orange juice futures' bubble bursts, or whatever cockamamie financial manipulation ruins decades of hard work in an eyeblink.

But they do. and to more closely address your point -- your school was an exchange for concessions you and your parents made. Payment for private school, adherence to a specific set of religious tenets, and a militaristic education. Your education was half paid for by someone who indebted you to not only the brother-club of sponsorship and the school's network of donors, but to continuing that same cycle yourself. And lastly, the lack of government influence was replaced by your school's influence, they molded you with an education, which will always influence how you think and your base understandings.
You paid perhaps more dearly for your education (no co-ed? Sheesh), but some people would view such a regimented structure as a handicap, regardless of how personally successful you believe yourself to be. Regardless, its a price you COULD pay that perhaps others could not even have the opportunity to try to pay.



How does this relate to ACORN? It relates because private institutions who do good and honorable work shouldn't need the federal government to stay afloat. The merit of their work should get them enough private donations and/or corporate sponsors. If the organization is not worthy enough to compel the average citizen to open his wallet, why should the federal government open it for him?

Maybe they didnt need government dollars to stay afloat. Maybe at the start they provided a service that drew government attention, and a politician chose to get them federal funding to expand their operations? I honestly dont know, caring nothing about the conservative's favorite whipping company. My point is that they could have been doing good work and received those government sponsorships to expand their operation in the same way that your taxes pay for roads you may never drive on, but are glad were put there.


Again, compassion should not be compulsory.
Let them eat cake I say.


I could make the same argument about the National Endowment for the Arts. You know how artists originally worked back in the day? They had a PATRON. That's right, they found someone rich who liked what they did enough to sponsor them. If they sucked, they kept working at it until they were good enough to get a patron. Meanwhile, they held down a real job and practiced their art form in their spare time. If they were lucky, they found a master of their art to help them along, otherwise, they used their own creativity and ingenuity to develop their skill.

They certainly didn't hold their hand out for federal grant money.

If you suck at your art form so badly that no one will buy it or pay to look at it, why should I support it with my tax dollars?

If your art/music/literary school is apparently so bad at doing its job that no one will pay to go there, why should you merit receiving my tax dollars?

never heard a repub espouse the honors of Lord Patronship as an option for America. But then we have monarchists/fascists/and theocrats aplenty already.

If your museum can't draw me in to see its exhibits and get enough ticket revenue to cover costs, why should you still get to take money out of my wallet at tax time?

Riiiiight. Economic Downturn! Quick! Sell off the national treasures!
 
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There is nothing in the constitution that states the federal government must fund acorn either. Also the miliary contracting weapons firms have the added clause of the clause where the government is required to protect the citizens. It would be more a question of which law would superceed the other. As for fraud...does that mean all the banks do not quailfy for the loans?

the constitution has been ignored for nearly 100 years now.
 
Out of the 4 pages of posts here, I think both Celvantes and Nicolette have made the best points.

Yeah, I agree that if my tax dollars are going to be passed around to companies, then full accountability, transparency, and oversight are needed. We the people tried to give them free reign (laissez-faire anyone?) hoping they would know what was best. In turn, companies like GM and such did in fact outsource jobs that we Americans could have been doing all in the name of profit. And for what?! For them to sell us piece of shit products that cant hold a candle to most, if not all, imports. Thankfully, it seems SOME companies are getting the picture and changing their habits, others (like AIG and such) are stubbornly holding on to their idiotic practices and only cause us the American public even greater anger. My belief is both sides of government made some bad decisions, the GOP for letting business do as they saw fit, and the Dems for not doing enough to keep the GOP from fucking up our country.
 
hexx, you obviously don't understand what a free market is. we no longer have one and the outsourcing of jobs is a direct result of this; not the other way around.

@nicolette i'll take the time to counter the points in your post when im no longer forced to use a psp to surf the web
 
I would also point out that we americans are also to blame for outsourcing. How many are willing to pay $20 for a head of lettuce? Buy 1 shirt for $20 or 5.... In this hard economic time, people are stilling getting pay raises who work for the government. This is state an federal. Raises are more compulsory than by merit. People expect to get them every year they work for a company no matter profit margins. These in turn drive costs. Unions do this as well. No matter if the state can afford the costs. Hawaii bus drivers went on strike back in I think 2002 <not too sure been a few years> because they did not want hours cut. So they state says ok, we will keep the hours. Then they say they will stay on strike unless they are given a 50 cent raise even after the state explains they were trying to cut back hours to save money they did not have. It got pretty nasty with even the sister union refusing to work. This hurt elderly and disabled and caused many rehab centers to start the process of shutting down. I know some unions are good, protecting their people, yet others only care about the $$$.

If a company has to pay $9 an hour for american workers and sell a shirt for $5 they won't stay in bussiness very long. If we really cared about our fellow workers we'd only buy made in the USA.

Still all seem to agree oversight is needed when companies want federal or state tax dollars. No matter if they are taking census, or building things. Transparent oversight where any american can go and see what is up. Be nice if it was worded so the average Joe could understand too. As for Nic. The fact they found someone who was willing does not bother you? That is the issue.
 
The argument given for the bailouts was that these businesses, the last vestige of what used to be the worlds greatest manufacturing concern - the American Automotive industry - was "too big to fail." meaning sure, it'd be nice to say "You lose this round, try again!" to GM, but since the long (republican) process of assuming that if you give big business free reign -- and their profit making will trickle downhill to the american populace -- failed. Why did it fail? Because letting big business have free reign included letting them outsource to the cheapest labor regardless of pesky human rights issues and turned China from having 12 port cities under mao to 126 under deng xiaoping, from cities barely able to support life, to metropolises 10 times the size of manhattan. We bailed out our failing industry because republican policy bled our money and jobs and livelihood overseas, and we wanted to give ourselves another chance rather than giving up and eating dirt for the next 20 years.

Businesses don't have free reign, and this is the fault of both "parties"
To say it's all republican fault is laughable at best!


This is the same argument people who aren't sick make about healthcare, and that wealthy people make about luxuries. "If you have the means you can have the best education, the best healthcare, the most luxury."
That's fine and dandy. Ayn Rand wrote a whole bunch of books trying to hammer that idea home, and the repubs favorite boy now that he's dead (Regan) was a Randite so it ties in nicely here...
Trouble is its bull cacka. Power doesn't directly derive from merit. If it did, all the hard working blue collar people in America wouldn't have to worry about their HMOs, homes or futures, Wall Street corruption swallowing their entire industries, their pensions evaporating, or their retirement being cut -- simply because it becomes fashionable to be anti-union, or speculators over orange juice futures' bubble bursts, or whatever cockamamie financial manipulation ruins decades of hard work in an eyeblink.

Power and wealth should derive from merit, problem is all the bullshit laws passed in the last 100 years take money from hardworking people and pass it out to those who DON'T work hard. Or any of the other laws preventing us from having a free economy. Trying to blame it on Wall Street is ridiculous, the problem doesn't lie there. It lies in Washington D.C., where politicians and lobbyists meddle about with our affairs.

But they do. and to more closely address your point -- your school was an exchange for concessions you and your parents made. Payment for private school, adherence to a specific set of religious tenets, and a militaristic education. Your education was half paid for by someone who indebted you to not only the brother-club of sponsorship and the school's network of donors, but to continuing that same cycle yourself. And lastly, the lack of government influence was replaced by your school's influence, they molded you with an education, which will always influence how you think and your base understandings.
You paid perhaps more dearly for your education (no co-ed? Sheesh), but some people would view such a regimented structure as a handicap, regardless of how personally successful you believe yourself to be. Regardless, its a price you COULD pay that perhaps others could not even have the opportunity to try to pay.

You're kidding right? In a free society we should be able to have a choice as to how we educate our children, public school is a piss poor way to do it. I'm unhappy that I went to public school, because I was taught revisionist history, and other false information. (e.g. Condoms don't protect from diseases, that every conflict since WW2 have been legitimate wars, etc.)


Maybe they didnt need government dollars to stay afloat. Maybe at the start they provided a service that drew government attention, and a politician chose to get them federal funding to expand their operations? I honestly dont know, caring nothing about the conservative's favorite whipping company. My point is that they could have been doing good work and received those government sponsorships to expand their operation in the same way that your taxes pay for roads you may never drive on, but are glad were put there.


The government should have no hand in the U.S. economy PERIOD. It's wrong to spend OUR money on anything other than a military(Even though we're doing it wrong now) and a few choice other things laid out in the Constitution. This kind of thinking, the focus on the collective instead of the individual, is what is leading us down this terrible path; and until we wake up and notice our liberty eroding away, we're going to lose more freedoms as our Constitution continues to be ignored!

It might be well-nigh time to exercise our second amendment rights.
 
The blind constitutional stance isn't a solution either (and is also my main problem with the Ron Paul position). While the Constitution is a (no pun intended) revolutionary document for its day and it shows a tremendous amount of forethought, it did not envision the United States becoming a world player to the extent that it has today.

In the course of our history, starting with the Civil War, the federal government has made a practice of assuming more and more power. In many cases, this has been necessary as it has generally been in response to one crisis or another. Imagine, for example, state governments pulling us out of the Great Depression and designing the vast war machine that eventually was responsible for the defeat of the Axis powers.

The one problem with this is that while the federal government rightfully took on a larger and larger role in the business of our country when it needed to, it has never relinquished this role and the power that comes with it. The result is a nation vastly different than the United States in the days of the Founding Fathers.

Can we go back? Should we go back? No. The world is simply too different, and America is for better or worse the lynch pin that holds it together. However, we must *carefully* scrutinize the role the federal government plays in all our lives, and triple-check any additional power we wish to yield to it in the cause of 'the greater good.'

Can you honestly believe any of the founding fathers would have wanted the federal government to be the primary benefactor of private organizations, charitable or otherwise?

Would they have agreed to let the federal government set national policy on individual medical care?

Something tells me they're rolling in their graves as we speak.

The argument given for the bailouts was that these businesses, the last vestige of what used to be the worlds greatest manufacturing concern - the American Automotive industry - was "too big to fail." meaning sure, it'd be nice to say "You lose this round, try again!" to GM, but since the long (republican) process of assuming that if you give big business free reign -- and their profit making will trickle downhill to the american populace -- failed. Why did it fail? Because letting big business have free reign included letting them outsource to the cheapest labor regardless of pesky human rights issues and turned China from having 12 port cities under mao to 126 under deng xiaoping, from cities barely able to support life, to metropolises 10 times the size of manhattan. We bailed out our failing industry because republican policy bled our money and jobs and livelihood overseas, and we wanted to give ourselves another chance rather than giving up and eating dirt for the next 20 years.

Excuse me, the cornerstone for US trade policy and the trend towards globalization in recent years has been the NAFTA treaty. Take a look in the history books and see WHICH party drove that legislation. I actually remember the day it was passed, and I can tell you it wasn't the Republican party. Al Gore, as the president of the Senate, cast the tie-breaking vote for the legislation which formed the backbone of the trade policy you're bitching about.

The GOP has always been the protectionist party.

That being said, I'm actually *for* globalization. If it means the difference between a $20 shirt and a $40 shirt, hell yes, outsource to China. The reason US companies can't compete with foreign companies is because instead of getting more education so that they can merit the pay they want, US workers insist on being paid X dollars per hour for work that is only worth 1/2 to 1/3 of that.

Acorn was getting your tax dollars as payment for things like running Census gathering for the government. I cant say i know much about them, other than the current manufactured hoopla -- but I cant claim to care much either. You'll argue it denotes a pattern of corruption in Acorn, and I think that the fanatics who engendered these actors that exposed the supposed corruption probably had to try many times before finding just the right stories to present to make Acorn look in the worst possible light, and that they did it for political motivations.

Google search 'ACORN voter fraud' and set the date back to 2008. ACORN was pulling this shit beforehand, it was just being swept underneath the rug. Also, even with the current issues, a lot of the allegations being brought before congress in order to cut their funding stem from misuse of government funds that dates back well over a year. They've been dirty for a while - they just haven't been caught in a big way.

Compassion should not NEED to be compulsory in the same way that Healthcare should not NEED to be mandatory for everyone to be able to receive medical care without it costing $20k for 6 stitches. But that's what happens when a doctor needs to give you treatment that your HMO's accountant thinks you'd be perfectly off without.

That's easy - vote with your dollars and *don't* use that HMO. Now in some cases, one particular HMO is all someone can afford, but THIS is the main problem with healthcare. Instead of regulating the industry more, government needs to deregulate it so that health care companies compete as much as auto insurance companies do. If the industry were deregulated, an HMO pulling the BS you describe would quickly lose it's business in favor of another HMO that took better care of its clients.

The answer is not putting everyone on government healthcare. I should know... I've been *on* government healthcare for ten years, and while it's not bad, it's certainly not better than that HMO you're describing.

I have more to write, but it's too late at the moment. I'll address the rest when I have time.
 
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